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RE: Operations: where are you going to sit?
by Roeland Meyer 06 Dec '00

06 Dec '00

I've worked in facilities where this ban existed, but not for the stated reasons. These same facilities don't even let you bring in a transistor radio because it is so easy to turn it into a transmitter. The EMI part is usually part of the dis-information. These same places also prohibit personal lap-tops, under the TEMPEST excuse. What they are really worried about is espionage. I'll bet they have a ferocious firewall too. > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel L. Golding [mailto:dan@netrail.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 11:32 AM > To: Roeland Meyer > Cc: 'Mathew Butler'; 'Jade Deane'; 'Daniel Senie'; 'Matt Thoene'; > nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: RE: Operations: where are you going to sit? > > > I have worked in data centers where cell phones, FM radios, > Nextel phones, > etc. were banned. The theory was that the radios could > somehow interfere > with the equipment. This never made much sense to me. Are restrictions > such as this common? Anyone have any thoughts on if this is rooted in > truth or falacy? It's very hard to work on some type of > network problems, > where you have to console in, while using someone standing > outside a data > center as a "talker". > > - Dan Golding > > On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Roeland Meyer wrote: > > > > > Go to RadioShack, buy wireless FM, use it in the data > center. No license. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mathew Butler [mailto:mbutler@tonbu.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:57 AM > > To: 'Jade Deane'; 'Daniel Senie' > > Cc: 'Matt Thoene'; nanog(a)merit.edu > > Subject: RE: Operations: where are you going to sit? > > > > > > Small problem: You can't use CB for any kind of business > purpose. :( > > There's a separate business band that -can- be used for > business -- you have > > to get a license from the FCC to use it, but that's > per-company and not > > per-user. > > -Mat Butler > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jade Deane [mailto:jade.deane@HelloNetwork.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:39 AM > > To: 'Daniel Senie' > > Cc: 'Matt Thoene'; nanog(a)merit.edu > > Subject: RE: Operations: where are you going to sit? > > > > > > > > I didn't want to come off sounding like a Nextel proponent, > but it's a > > solution that's worked well here. And yes, their > convoluted two way system > > is by no means traditional, and I'm open to suggestions ;) > > Perhaps a CB with a nice oak finish would be in order. > Breaker Breaker 1-9, > > > > we have flapping. > > Jade > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Daniel Senie [mailto:dts@senie.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:27 AM > > To: Jade Deane > > Cc: 'Matt Thoene'; nanog(a)merit.edu > > Subject: Re: Operations: where are you going to sit? > > > > > > > > Jade Deane wrote: > > > > > > Loss of signal in a data center is a good point. At a previous > > organization > > > I was slaved to, we brought this up with Nextel sales > people. After about > > > > a > > > week or so they purposed a small in-line receiver for the > various data > > > centers, and a thin Kate Moss looking yagi for each roof. > > Actually, this should be a passive device. Various types of slotted > > waveguide/coax are made, for example in the Heliax product line. An > > antenna on the roof (directional antenna only if you're on > the edge of a > > coverage area) and a slotted line through your facility > will provide > > good results. Think about it for all commonly used > frequencies (cellular > > and pager) that might be in use in your facility. This > isn't something > > you have to get via your wireless vendor, and it doesn't need > > electronics. > > Hospitals have used such setups for years to permit > doctor's pagers to > > function throughout buildings (even in basements). > > > > > > Also, I can't stress the importance of a basic two way > mobile system. We > > > use the Nextel i1000+ phones for our engineering staff > and NOC. The > > > internet access features on these bad boys has been VERY > handy. The > > ability > > > for a NOC member to check MRTG/Openview type information > and IMAP/etc. > > email > > > has been beneficial. > > Something for you to think about: Your Nextel phones are > NOT two-way > > radios in the traditional sense. They communicate handset > to handset via > > the Nextel network (even if you're right next to each > other). If you're > > in the midst of a storm or other natural disaster and your > local cell > > site dies, you've got no use of those radios. Also, in the event of > > emergency, cell sites become overloaded with folks sitting > in traffic > > calling people. You may find these radios least effective > when you need > > them most. > > The Motorola radios other folks suggested are FM transceivers on > > business (or FRS) bands. These communicate directly from > radio to radio > > (commercial gear also can use private repeaters). These are better > > choices, as they have no outside dependencies. > > > > > > Jade > > > > > > Jade E. Deane > > > Network Engineer > > > helloNetwork.com > > > Las Vegas, Nevada > > > > > > Office: +1 (702) 938-9267 > > > Cell: +1 (702) 604-4759 > > > Fax: +1 (702) 456-1471 > > > email: jade.deane(a)helloNetwork.com > > > epage: 7026044759(a)page.nextel.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Matt Thoene [mailto:matt@thoene.net] > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:40 AM > > > To: nanog(a)merit.edu > > > Subject: RE: Operations: where are you going to sit? > > > > > > :: > > > ::I would add wireless phones in general. If NOC staff > need to walk over > > to > > > ::another person's screen or to swap cables or interfaces in a > > > ::datacenter, you > > > ::probably don't want them tied to a desk phone. You may > want to consider > > > > > ::some basic 2 way radios (RF) in addition to > wireless/cell phones for > > > ::datacenter <--> NOC <--> restroom communication independent of > > > ::any ma bell. > > > > > > ...especially since cell phones tend to get no signal in > Data Centers... > > > > > > -Matt > > > > > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Daniel Senie dts(a)senie.com > > Amaranth Networks Inc. http://www.amaranth.com > > >

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RE: Operations: where are you going to sit?
by Mathew Butler 06 Dec '00

06 Dec '00

Small problem: You can't use CB for any kind of business purpose. :( There's a separate business band that -can- be used for business -- you have to get a license from the FCC to use it, but that's per-company and not per-user. -Mat Butler -----Original Message----- From: Jade Deane [mailto:jade.deane@HelloNetwork.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:39 AM To: 'Daniel Senie' Cc: 'Matt Thoene'; nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: RE: Operations: where are you going to sit? I didn't want to come off sounding like a Nextel proponent, but it's a solution that's worked well here. And yes, their convoluted two way system is by no means traditional, and I'm open to suggestions ;) Perhaps a CB with a nice oak finish would be in order. Breaker Breaker 1-9, we have flapping. Jade -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Senie [mailto:dts@senie.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:27 AM To: Jade Deane Cc: 'Matt Thoene'; nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Operations: where are you going to sit? Jade Deane wrote: > > Loss of signal in a data center is a good point. At a previous organization > I was slaved to, we brought this up with Nextel sales people. After about a > week or so they purposed a small in-line receiver for the various data > centers, and a thin Kate Moss looking yagi for each roof. Actually, this should be a passive device. Various types of slotted waveguide/coax are made, for example in the Heliax product line. An antenna on the roof (directional antenna only if you're on the edge of a coverage area) and a slotted line through your facility will provide good results. Think about it for all commonly used frequencies (cellular and pager) that might be in use in your facility. This isn't something you have to get via your wireless vendor, and it doesn't need electronics. Hospitals have used such setups for years to permit doctor's pagers to function throughout buildings (even in basements). > > Also, I can't stress the importance of a basic two way mobile system. We > use the Nextel i1000+ phones for our engineering staff and NOC. The > internet access features on these bad boys has been VERY handy. The ability > for a NOC member to check MRTG/Openview type information and IMAP/etc. email > has been beneficial. Something for you to think about: Your Nextel phones are NOT two-way radios in the traditional sense. They communicate handset to handset via the Nextel network (even if you're right next to each other). If you're in the midst of a storm or other natural disaster and your local cell site dies, you've got no use of those radios. Also, in the event of emergency, cell sites become overloaded with folks sitting in traffic calling people. You may find these radios least effective when you need them most. The Motorola radios other folks suggested are FM transceivers on business (or FRS) bands. These communicate directly from radio to radio (commercial gear also can use private repeaters). These are better choices, as they have no outside dependencies. > > Jade > > Jade E. Deane > Network Engineer > helloNetwork.com > Las Vegas, Nevada > > Office: +1 (702) 938-9267 > Cell: +1 (702) 604-4759 > Fax: +1 (702) 456-1471 > email: jade.deane(a)helloNetwork.com > epage: 7026044759(a)page.nextel.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Thoene [mailto:matt@thoene.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:40 AM > To: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: RE: Operations: where are you going to sit? > > :: > ::I would add wireless phones in general. If NOC staff need to walk over to > ::another person's screen or to swap cables or interfaces in a > ::datacenter, you > ::probably don't want them tied to a desk phone. You may want to consider > ::some basic 2 way radios (RF) in addition to wireless/cell phones for > ::datacenter <--> NOC <--> restroom communication independent of > ::any ma bell. > > ...especially since cell phones tend to get no signal in Data Centers... > > -Matt -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel Senie dts(a)senie.com Amaranth Networks Inc. http://www.amaranth.com

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Anyone can help on this puzzle?
by nanog＠btamail.net.cn 06 Dec '00

06 Dec '00

Dear all, There is a IDC service provider whose data centers are scattered here and there. It has its own AS number but no circuits to mesh its nodes. If they want to run BGP with their carrier to exchange routes carrying traffic between their nodes ( I suspect it is not a VPN senario because it is using public IP address and most of the traffic is not internal) and their IP block are potentially intersected among the nodes, is each zone sharing same AS and running like an island enough to go? And do we need an IPsec gateway to create tunnels over public networks (through the eBGP peer? >:$ #$*&^$#$!) to setup iBGP if possible at all? Thanks in adv! ___________________________________________________________________________ I use this mail box only to avoid the big volume. ---------------------------------------------- »¶ÓÊ¹ÓÃ BTA µç×ÓÓÊŒþÏµÍ³ http://btamail.net.cn Thank you for using BTA Email system

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RE: Operations: where are you going to sit?
by Roeland Meyer 06 Dec '00

06 Dec '00

FM is the way to go here. > From: Jade Deane [mailto:jade.deane@HelloNetwork.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:39 AM > > I didn't want to come off sounding like a Nextel proponent, but it's a > solution that's worked well here. And yes, their convoluted > two way system > is by no means traditional, and I'm open to suggestions ;) > > Perhaps a CB with a nice oak finish would be in order. > Breaker Breaker 1-9, > we have flapping.

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RE: Operations: where are you going to sit?
by Jade Deane 06 Dec '00

06 Dec '00

Loss of signal in a data center is a good point. At a previous organization I was slaved to, we brought this up with Nextel sales people. After about a week or so they purposed a small in-line receiver for the various data centers, and a thin Kate Moss looking yagi for each roof. Also, I can't stress the importance of a basic two way mobile system. We use the Nextel i1000+ phones for our engineering staff and NOC. The internet access features on these bad boys has been VERY handy. The ability for a NOC member to check MRTG/Openview type information and IMAP/etc. email has been beneficial. Jade Jade E. Deane Network Engineer helloNetwork.com Las Vegas, Nevada Office: +1 (702) 938-9267 Cell: +1 (702) 604-4759 Fax: +1 (702) 456-1471 email: jade.deane(a)helloNetwork.com epage: 7026044759(a)page.nextel.com -----Original Message----- From: Matt Thoene [mailto:matt@thoene.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:40 AM To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: RE: Operations: where are you going to sit? :: ::I would add wireless phones in general. If NOC staff need to walk over to ::another person's screen or to swap cables or interfaces in a ::datacenter, you ::probably don't want them tied to a desk phone. You may want to consider ::some basic 2 way radios (RF) in addition to wireless/cell phones for ::datacenter <--> NOC <--> restroom communication independent of ::any ma bell. ...especially since cell phones tend to get no signal in Data Centers... -Matt

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RE: Operations: where are you going to sit?
by Paul Lantinga 06 Dec '00

06 Dec '00

I would add wireless phones in general. If NOC staff need to walk over to another person's screen or to swap cables or interfaces in a datacenter, you probably don't want them tied to a desk phone. You may want to consider some basic 2 way radios (RF) in addition to wireless/cell phones for datacenter <--> NOC <--> restroom communication independent of any ma bell. -Paul LANtinga Q9 Networks -----Original Message----- From: Avleen Vig [mailto:avleen@ivision.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:07 AM To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Operations: where are you going to sit? > > 5) Lots of phone lines (including conference and analog) > > that can call in and out and internationally Add to this, some mobile / cellular phones. If your phone lines go down, which can and DOES happen at times of crisis, these can be critical. Even if there is no crisis, but phone lines to your NOC go down for a few hours, you'll need these to communicate with the outside world.

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Re: Operations: where are you going to sit?
by Kevin_Badeen＠harte-hanks.com 06 Dec '00

06 Dec '00

Does Anyone have any Technical data for NOC building? Maybe a "NOC Building 101" or something like that. Kevin Badeen Unix Administrator Harte-Hanks Response Management 512.434.5999 Tel 877.446.5548 Pag |--------+-----------------------> | | Simon | | | Lockhart | | | <simonl(a)rd.bb| | | c.co.uk> | | | Sent by: | | | owner-nanog@m| | | erit.edu | | | | | | | | | 12/06/2000 | | | 02:09 AM | | | | |--------+-----------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: Hal Murray <murray(a)pa.dec.com> | | cc: nanog(a)merit.edu | | Subject: Re: Operations: where are you going to sit? | >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| >> > 5) Lots of phone lines (including conference and analog) >> that can call in and out and internationally > >This isn't for the NOC proper, but it might be handy if you have >gear located in remote locations where a non-wizard might be pushing >buttons or reading lights for you. Or if you've got international customers! I could name a telco in NYC whose engineers are unable to call international. This makes it kind of tricky to work on circuit problems with them. Needless to say, I won't be buying more circuits from them... Simon -- Simon Lockhart | Tel: +44 (0)1737 839676 Internet Engineering Manager | Fax: +44 (0)1737 839516 BBC Internet Services | Email: Simon.Lockhart(a)bbc.co.uk Kingswood Warren,Tadworth,Surrey,UK | URL: http://support.bbc.co.uk/

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Re: Operations: where are you going to sit?
by Hal Murray 06 Dec '00

06 Dec '00

> > 5) Lots of phone lines (including conference and analog) > that can call in and out and internationally This isn't for the NOC proper, but it might be handy if you have gear located in remote locations where a non-wizard might be pushing buttons or reading lights for you. Make sure there is a phone near the gear or a phone someplace with a long enough cord to get there.

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RE: Is MPLS based VPN really feasible in real world situation?
by Cumming, James 06 Dec '00

06 Dec '00

Tiernan, You are indeed correct. Giles did indeed mention that we are running MPLS on our Juniper M160 core network and I am rolling out MPLS VPNs on a wider scale across Europe. This service is not currently available for customers of Level 3 as the Juniper equipment is not currently capable of supporting MPLS VPNs (Juniper have a release of software that should cover this functionality early next 2001). There are work-arounds to allow end-to-end MPLS VPNs but these will not be implemented for customers as they do not scale. We will be pursuing further work in this area early next year. Regards, James Cumming IP Core Network Engineer Level 3 Communications -----Original Message----- From: tiernan ray [mailto:tiernan@tiernan.net] Sent: 05 December 2000 15:24 To: Christian Kuhtz; nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Is MPLS based VPN really feasible in real world situation? I don't mean to intrude, as I'm a journalist who lurks, not a carrier representative. But I thought I'd point out that at last week's "IP Over WDM" conference in Paris, Giles Heron, of Level 3 Communications, remarked that the company has MPLS running in its Juniper M160 routers and that the firm has been running MPLS VPNs in London for six months. Heron remarked the gating factor at this point is getting the firm to price such a service for commercial deployment, and, on the technical side, the service can not be run out to the edge of the network until there is compatibility between Juniper and Cisco's respective label distribution protocol (LDP) software. Once this happens, Giles expects the company will try to run MPLS across the entire network between the Juniper switches and Cisco 7500 routers. I'm not really qualified to assess any of this information, but thought I'd offer it to the group since I came across it at the conference. Tiernan Ray Journalist SmartMoney.com tiernan(a)tiernan.net Christian Kuhtz wrote: > > Hi Nanog, > > > > We've noticed that Global one has already begin to sell its MPLS based VPN, > > but we heard the Cisco people says that MPLS can't be widely deployed. Does > > anyone know any further detail of Global one's MPLS based VPN, is it real? > > Any additional operational cost than traditional VPN ? > > Err. who from Cisco said it can't be widely deployed? > > -- > Christian Kuhtz <ck(a)arch.bellsouth.net> -wk, <ck(a)gnu.org> -hm > Sr. Architect, Engineering & Architecture, BellSouth.net, Atlanta, GA, U.S. > "I speak for myself only."

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RE: Facts, Statistics and Urban Legends from the backhoe conventi on
by Roeland Meyer 06 Dec '00

06 Dec '00

> From: Sean Donelan [mailto:sean@donelan.com] > Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:59 AM I noticed these two points, from you message, and moved them together. If this is the current business case, for excavators; > A review of 582 damage incidents caused by excavator error resulted > in an average cost to the excavator of $1,488 per incident. > It is often > less expensive for the excavator to dig through the utilities than > around them. Then what do you think would happen if the real costs were passed on for them to pay? > Sprint estimates the cost to repair a single cable cut between > $50,000 to $65,000. Loss of Use costs may be over $200,000. This sounds real accurate. Why aren't the excavators seeing these costs? I'd bet a saw-buck that their behavior would be modified if this was what they were hit with. > In one court case, the excavator's president testified that it was > his company's standard practice to ignore OSHA regulations, > ANSI standards, > and guidelines set out in Bell South brochures and to always > excavate with > mechanized equipment directly over the orange paint marks showing the > location of underground telecommunications facilities. He further > testified that his company averaged one and one-half cable > cuts a month, > and considered damging underground facilities as simple a > cost of doing > business. I'm only a businessman, but this sounds like he's a creature that has adapted adequately to his environment. > My questions: If he always dug directly over the orange paint > marks, why > was the locate so poor he only hit a cable once ever month and a half? This one made ne laugh for a solid five minutes. ROTFLMAO!

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