July 2004 - Test - lists.nanog.org

WHOIS Notification
by Member Services 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

Dear Colleagues, Today, Thursday, July 22, beginning at approximately 7:00 pm EST (1900 UCT), ARIN will begin accepting queries to whois.arin.net via port 43 at our co-location facility. In the past, some users have relied on the IP address of whois.arin.net to direct queries. Please make sure in the future to always rely on the host name. This is particularly important during the upcoming weeks as we continue to make improvements to our services. Today's scheduled improvement addresses port 43 whois. Port 80 queries will continue to be served from the whois query box on ARIN's website at www.arin.net or directly accessed at http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl. As we make additional improvements, it is equally important to direct port 80 queries to these targets, and not to whois.arin.net:80 or directly to any IP address. These changes, which come as a result of internal improvements to ARIN WHOIS services, will include expanded port 80 coverage in the coming weeks and improved failover capability. Thank you for your patience as we make these improvements to better serve you. Regards, Cathy Murphy ARIN Engineering

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Re: Surge Protection
by Daniel Senie 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

At 11:56 AM 7/22/2004, you wrote: >Have anyone experienced hardware failure related to electrical spikes >coming into your datacenters or equipment locations via the telco >facilities? I am referring specifically to copper facilities for DS1's, >etc. I know that the telco must maintain good grounding, but sometimes >when you get hit with a few Gigavolts worth of electrical energy not much >will help you. Whatever the case, has anyone had any experience good or >otherwise with surge protection for their Telcom circuits? I am looking >at this unit below as a possible solution. Rule #1, don't trust the telco or the power company, or anyone else feeding wires into your building to do a good job keeping you safe from surges. A client of mine has what used to be a CSU/DSU... now has surface mount components missing and the like. They hadn't installed a surge protector on the T-1. They had covered the power and the antenna coaxes at the site. Only the T-1 line was unprotected. Lightning will find that one path you've not protected. The cost of installing a surge protector is unlikely to impact your bottom line. One successful lightning strike on the other hand will hurt quite a bit, and probably happen at 4AM just to be more annoying.

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RE: T1 short-haul vs. long-haul
by Michel Py 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

> What is the "demarc"? The demarc is the service demarcation. On your side of the demarc, things are your responsibility. On the telco side of the demarc, it's your provider and/or the LEC responsibility. http://192.20.13.157/planner/tab003a.pdf look at figure 1 http://192.20.13.157/planner/tab003b.pdf look at figure 1 http://192.20.13.157/planner/ip.html [note: this is for AT&T, but other carriers are similar] > Is it the jack/punch-block where the SmartJack is connected to? Maybe, maybe not. > What is an "MPOE"? Minimum Point Of Entry. That's where the LEC brings the cables from the street into the building. Unless you own the entire building, this typically is a closet (on the first floor, no temperature control) that the building manager and/or every tenant will have access to and that is not located in your office. > What is the "NIU"? The box that converts the signal from the street (that can run for miles) into the signal you find on the smartjack (that can only go a few hundred feet). Although I don't like the term, it's some kind of a digital modem. The smartjack is dumb (no lights); the NIU is the brains of the smartjack, what has the lights and can be looped. > Where is the SmartJack normally located? In your offices > or somewhere else in the building (maybe some room where > the cable to the CO is terminated)? - If you don't ask for extended demarc, it will be located in the MPOE room. - If you do ask for extended demarc (which I strongly recommend), either the smart jack will remain in the MPOE and your provider will bring a router (which becomes the demarc) in your office, or your provider will extend the smartjack (which will remains the demarc) in your office. Whether or not they move the NIU (which is preferred since you can look at the lights but will be difficult) or only move the jack itself is not your problem, all you really care is that they move their responsibility line, the demarc. You want the location of the demarc in WRITING. What you want is your provider to be responsible for the circuit coming into YOUR office, not the building. If you don't have this, you will get that: > David Lesher wrote: > They all have finger splints from overuse; > pointing to each other. No comment. And some of that: > Mark Radabaugh wrote: > The usual method is to declare no trouble found > and close the ticket (especially if the ticket > is approaching 24 hours....). a.k.a. "It works on my side". Also common is the "problem fixed while testing": there was never anything wrong but it started working again when they begun to test :-D Michel.

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Surge Protection
by Fisher, Shawn 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

Have anyone experienced hardware failure related to electrical spikes coming into your datacenters or equipment locations via the telco facilities? I am referring specifically to copper facilities for DS1's, etc. I know that the telco must maintain good grounding, but sometimes when you get hit with a few Gigavolts worth of electrical energy not much will help you. Whatever the case, has anyone had any experience good or otherwise with surge protection for their Telcom circuits? I am looking at this unit below as a possible solution. http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=19 TIA, Shawn ----------------------------------------------- Shawn Fisher Bresnan Communications (v) 914.641.3367 -----------------------------------------------

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RE: T1 short-haul vs. long-haul
by Williams, Jeff 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

>o What is the "demarc"? Is it the jack/punch-block where the SmartJack is connected to? The demarc (short for demarcation point) is the last place on a circuit that the carrier is responsible. With a T1 this is typically some sort of semi-intelligent device (NIU, smartjack) that responds to remote loop commands and has a RJ48 jack. Some LECs hand off on 66 blocks. YMMV. >o What is an "MPOE"? The MPOE is the Minimum Point of Entry of a building. (Sometime called the MPOP- Minimum Point of Presence) This is typically the room in which the LECs CO cables are terminated (but not always). This is where any non-extended demarcs will be. >o What is the "NIU"? The NIU (Network Interface Unit) is a multifunction device and does a bunch of stuff (surge protector, loop, etc) quite often the term NIU and smartjack can be used interchangeably. >o Where is the SmartJack normally located? In your offices or somewhere else in the building (maybe some room where the cable to the CO is terminated)? The smartjack will almost always be located at the MPOE. Even if you get an extended demarc they won't move the it. One note of advise- whoever you use as the provider (AT&T, MCI, L3 etc) make an extended demarc part of the order from the very beginning. Essentially you want the provider to be responsible for the whole thing, up to the 6' cable to your equipment. This will alleviate any finger pointing if your able to say 'it doesn't work at my router- I don't care who does it, but get it fixed.' One call (well, at least one organization) is all you'll have to deal with. The carrier will try to test to the NIU, then the CSU. If they can run clean to the NIU but not the CSU they'll call you back to verify power- then dispatch someone to test from the extended demarc. HTH, Jeff ************************************************************** This message, including any attachments, contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies. You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. TIAA-CREF **************************************************************

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Followup: Inexpensive Telephone Conference Bridge System
by Robert A. Hayden 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

Thank you all for the responses. I got about 35 reponses and 34 of them strongly suggested www.asterisk.org as an open-source linux-based solution that will work with either 4-port POTs PCI cards or 1- or 4-port T1 PCI cards. Also recommended were Turn-key solutions at www.conference-bridge.net. So as the followup, does anyone know of a "widget" that will allow me to take 24 POTs lines in and spit out a channelized T1 line? Because of the bureaucracy of the univerisity, it is very easy to get get POTs lines (even in large quantities) and set them up in a hunt group and not easy at all to get a T1 drop. Thanks again for all the commends. Robert Hayden Senior Network Engineer and bottle washer University of Wisconsin Madison

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T1 short-haul vs. long-haul
by Andre Oppermann 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

I'm having a few questions about T1 line support in the US because I have to procure some Router/Network hardware for US branches of a company (I am from Europe). Normally in Europe when you order an E1 (G.703) connection the Telco delivers a NTU (Network termination Unit) which normally is a (S)HDSL modem converting from two-wire DSL to four-wire E1 electrical. The cable between the NTU and the Router is normally very short, a few feet/meters. o How is this normally done in the US by the Telcos for T1 lines? o I assume the difference between T1 short-haul and long-haul is the cable length. But what is it used for? Is it still common to have long-haul T1 connections either within buildings or towards the central office of the Telco? Would I be fine with buying short-haul-only interfaces in any common scenario? o What is "Wet T1 Capable"? What is it used for and who needs this? o What else is important in dealings with US Telcos when ordering and using T1 leased-line services? Thanks for any input. -- Andre

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Campus size Wireless LAN
by Eric Brown 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

Anyone have experience with Proxim's tsunami quickbridge for wireless connectivity between buildings at line of site distances under 1 mile? It's cheaper than Cisco and looks good on paper. Looking for the good bad and ugly. Thanks in advance! -Eric

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RE: T1 short-haul vs. long-haul
by Michel Py 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

>> SmartJack with demarcation point in the office (or >> same floor) instead of the building entrance point I can't emphasize enough the importance of this, read ahead. > Mark Kent wrote: > You are not likely going to be able to control that, > it depends on how the install tech's day is going. > Strictly speaking, I believe they are supposed to put > it at the MPOE. For the smart jack, it depends on the telco and/or if the telco also is the CLEC. Example1: You buy the T1 from AT&T, and they use SBC (formerly Pacific Bell) as the CLEC. The only way you will get the demarc extended in your premises is to have the router managed by AT&T, and then the demarc is the Ethernet port of their router. If you have your own router the demarc is the smart jack, the smart jack is at the MPOE and anything between the smart jack and you is your responsibility, which is terrible as I will explain below. Example2: You buy the circuit from XO and they are their own CLEC. As you hold the sales droid by the cojones you will be able to have the demarc extended to your premises. > As you order the circuit specify where you want it to > end up ("server room, 2nd floor") and that you want an > extended demarc (will cost extra). Yes, yes, yes. It is worth the extra cost. > AT install time, make sure someone is around to cajole the > installer into getting the NIU as close as you can to where > your router will be. This is where there isn't much you can do about. I have tried several times to "cajole" with 200 bucks in cash and/or other incentives; it did not happen. > The installer should test from the extended > demarc (make sure they do). The installer and all the techs always test from the demarc, whether or not it's extended. What you DON'T want to do is to extend the demarc yourself (because you don't actually extend it), and here's why: - Let's assume example 1 above. - The demarc is at the MPOE; the smart jack is 1ft away from the NIU; you have a 300ft cat5 cable between the smart jack and the CSU/DSU in your premises. - You drop packets; you have 65 identically configured sites, you replaced the router and the CSU/DSU twice already, and you still drop packets. As the config can't be at fault as it works fine on the other 64 sites and the hardware can't be at fault since you replaced every piece of it including the power cord and the patch cords twice, it's obviously a circuit issue, right? - You call AT&T. "It works on my side" (remember this sentence). - You call SBC. "It works on my side". That is, if you get them to talk to you as the circuit goes to AT&T and they will likely say "talk to them". - You call AT&T again. "It works on my side". - You call your AT&T sales droid and threaten not to pay the bill and sue them. - After 2 days of ping-pong you finally get an SBC tech to come and test the line (possibly by lying at the number of CRC errors). - The SBC tech comes, plugs the pattern tester at the smart jack, loops the remote CSU/DSU, and it all tests clean. - The SBC tech report that the circuit is clean, now you're back dealing with AT&T. - More time passes by. You finally get the AT&T tech to come. He does the same as the SBC tech: plugs the tester at the demarc and runs bit patterns. "It works on my side". - You say: but I need it to work at my router, not in the MPOE room. Tough luck, buddy. Our responsibility stops at the demarc; it tests clean, we don't give a rip if you extended the demarc to your office. Tough luck. Sometimes pattern testers detect line issues, sometimes they don't. Now you have to move your CSU/DSU and router in the MPOE room (possibly open to all winds) and _prove_ them that it's a circuit issue. Morale: you want the demarc extended to the same room you have the CSU/DSU in your premises, ESPECIALLY if there is more than one company involved. > Get a standard built-in T1 dsu like as been mentioned in > previous posts. Plug it into the extended demarc with an > ethernet patch cable. Yes indeed. CAT5 is your friend even if it's not necessary on paper. Michel.

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Identity theft case could be largest so far
by Fergie (Paul Ferguson) 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

Important enough to not be off-topic. http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/07/21/cyber.theft/index.html - ferg -- "Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawg(a)netzero.net or fergdawg(a)sbcglobal.net

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