December 2020 - NANOG - lists.nanog.org

Are the days of the showpiece NOC office display gone forever?
by Eric Kuhnke 30 Dec '20

30 Dec '20

With the covid19 situation, obviously lots of ISPs have their NOC personnel working from home, with VPN (or remote desktop) access to all the internal tools, VoIP at home, etc. In the traditional sense, by "showpiece NOC" I mean a room designed for the purpose of having large situational awareness displays on a wall, network weathermaps and charts, alerting systems, composed of four or more big flat panel displays. Ideally configured to be actually useful for NOC purposes and also something impressive looking for customer tours. To what extent potential customers find that sort of thing to be a signifier of seriousness on the part of an ISP, I suppose depends on what sort of customers they are, and their relative degree of technical sophistication. Are the days of such an environment gone forever?

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Where do your 911 fees go and why does 911 fail
by Sean Donelan 30 Dec '20

30 Dec '20

The FCC published its annual report on state 911 fees https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-issues-annual-report-state-911-fees-1 The report finds that in 2019, states and territories collected more than $3 billion in 911 fees, and more than $200 million of that funding was diverted for uses other than 911. You can look up your individual state's 911 report here https://www.fcc.gov/general/911-fee-reports In case you are interested in Tennessee's 911 service resiliancy: [...] The project, referred to as NG911, involves utilization of the State’s secure, private, outsourced Multiprotocol Label Switching (“MPLS”) network called “NetTN,” provided by AT&T and managed by Strategic Technology Solutions (“STS”) in the Tennessee Department of Finance and Administration. The new network improves redundancy, reliability, and 911 call delivery. It enhances interoperability and increases the ease of communication between ECDs, allowing immediate transfer of 911 calls, caller information, and other data on a statewide level. NG911 will also provide alternate paths to process emergency calls in the event of an outage, providing lifesaving capabilities in the event of an emergency that would have been unachievable on the outdated analog network. [...] In fiscal year 2019, the TECB spent $11,224,726 million implementing and maintaining the NG911 project: $6,974,790 to integrate with and adapt the Net TN system for NG911 purposes; $780,966 for non-recurring start-up costs of the statewide hosted controller or Call Handling as a Service program; $3,451,369 to maintain the twenty-four hour network operations center to assist PSAPs with technical issues; and $17,600 for Esri GIS software licensing. [...]

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10g residential CPE
by Ben Cannon 30 Dec '20

30 Dec '20

Anyone else doing it? Do you like your gear? Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC CEO ben(a)6by7.net "The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the world.” FCC License KJ6FJJ Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.

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Re: 10g residential CPE
by Aaron Wendel 30 Dec '20

30 Dec '20

The majority of our customers are still on Brocade MLXs. We're in the process of upgrading all our equipment to Arista switches to accommodate the increased demand for 40G and 100G ports as well as implement 400G ports. Aaron On 12/29/2020 3:33 AM, Jonathon Exley wrote: > Hi Aaron, > > Just out of interest, what switch gear are you using? You must have a > pretty good cost per port. > > Jonathon. > > On 29/12/2020 9:38 AM, Aaron Wendel <aaron(a)wholesaleinternet.net> wrote: > We prioritize calls based on severity. If both Google and Grandma call > and say they have a cut then we have people to service both at the same > time. If Google, Century Link, Verizon, AT&T and Grandma all call then > Grandma gets to wait a day. That being the case, it's not dependent on > revenue. Emergency Services (911 and Police radio feeds) gets #1 > priority even though they're non-paying. > > But yes, in extreme situations the residential customers would be > delayed to service the paying customers. We do have people cross > trained from other parts of our businesses so we can allocate internally > in emergencies. In almost a decade though I can't think of a situation > where someone had to wait for service because we didn't have the > resources to service them. > > Aaron > > > On 12/28/2020 2:02 PM, Mel Beckman wrote: > > Darin, > > > > Surely you at least give the paying customers priority over the > > non-paying? It’s one thing to say “I have to write paychecks no matter > > what”. It’s another to say “I’ll give away my support to free > > customers AND degrade support for paying customers as a result.” Your > > tech support guy “walking Grandma through getting her email” is > > necessarily not accessible for the duration to paying customers. > > > > This means your staffing must be large enough to never have any > > queuing, or you’re giving away your paying customers' time to > > non-paying customers. Neither approach is scalable in a competitive > > business environment, because SOMEBODY is paying for all those > > resources, and if it’s your customers, they will buy elsewhere. Your > > approach only work until you run out of other people’s money. > > > > -mel > > > >> On Dec 28, 2020, at 11:50 AM, Baldur Norddahl > >> <baldur.norddahl(a)gmail.com <mailto:baldur.norddahl@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> > >> I applaud your commitment to helping your local community. Just want > >> to point out that this is a charity because it does not scale. Nobody > >> could build out a FTTH network and make it free as a business case. > >> But there are plenty of people that made a network for their > >> neighbors and provided that for free. Maybe a person had a commercial > >> fiber to his home and thought he could just as well share it. This > >> might be on a bigger scale but it is the same. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Baldur > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM Aaron Wendel > >> <aaron(a)wholesaleinternet.net <mailto:aaron@wholesaleinternet.net>> > wrote: > >> > >> Darin, > >> > >> Our business support and residential support is the same > >> department. I > >> have to pay those people to be in the office either way so it > >> doesn't > >> cost me any "more" to provide support for the residences. Yes, > >> walking > >> Grandma through getting her email can sometimes be a chore but that > >> person is on the payroll whether he/she is helping Grandma or > >> sitting > >> there chatting with his/her co-worker. If we dumped all the > >> residential > >> customers we would still have the same cost structure we do now. > >> > >> Again, it's been free for the last 7 years at this point. I've > >> never > >> been one to really do what I "should" anyway. > >> > >> Aaron > >> > >> > >> On 12/28/2020 11:48 AM, Darin Steffl wrote: > >> > Aaron, > >> > > >> > The "Free" service doesn't cover your cost of support which is > >> much > >> > higher for residential than any business customer. Our residential > >> > customers call at least 15x more often compared to business > >> customers > >> > compared on a 1:1 ratio. > >> > > >> > I honestly can't fathom providing free residential service > >> because we > >> > make enough money on the business side of things. You should be > >> > charging something, at least $20-30 per month. > >> > > >> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:15 AM Aaron Wendel > >> > <aaron(a)wholesaleinternet.net > >> <mailto:aaron@wholesaleinternet.net> > >> <mailto:aaron@wholesaleinternet.net > >> <mailto:aaron@wholesaleinternet.net>>> wrote: > >> > > >> > The $300 covers the equipment and the time to send someone > >> out to a > >> > house to install it. If $300 is too much you can pay in 12 > >> > installments > >> > of $25. > >> > > >> > The TIK alone costs us about $250. > >> > > >> > Aaron > >> > > >> > > >> > On 12/27/2020 5:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On 12/26/20 20:48, Darin Steffl wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> Aaron, > >> > >> > >> > >> One simple question. Why on earth would you offer free > >> internet > >> > >> service? How and why? Your site show 1 Gig symmetrical > >> for free > >> > when > >> > >> you should be a minimum of $65 per month to be competitive. > >> > > > >> > > They also ask for no monthly fee after a single payment > >> of US$300. > >> > > > >> > > Considering the 2Gbps package costs US$49.95, you'd guess > >> they'd > >> > value > >> > > the 1Gbps service at, say US$27/month, give or take. > >> > > > >> > > So that US$300 provides a bit of coverage, perhaps 1 > >> year, in which > >> > > time they'd have likely upgraded the customer. > >> > > > >> > > Mark. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > ================================================================ > >> > Aaron Wendel > >> > Chief Technical Officer > >> > Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097) > >> > (816)550-9030 > >> > http://www.wholesaleinternet.com <http://www.wholesaleinternet.com> > >> <http://www.wholesaleinternet.com/ <http://www.wholesaleinternet.com/>> > >> <http://www.wholesaleinternet.com <http://www.wholesaleinternet.com> > >> <http://www.wholesaleinternet.com/ > <http://www.wholesaleinternet.com/>>> > >> > ================================================================ > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Darin Steffl > >> > Minnesota WiFi > >> > www.mnwifi.com <http://www.mnwifi.com> <http://www.mnwifi.com/ > <http://www.mnwifi.com>> <http://www.mnwifi.com/ <http://www.mnwifi.com/> > >> <http://www.mnwifi.com/ <http://www.mnwifi.com/>>> > >> > 507-634-WiFi > >> > Like us on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi > <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi> > >> <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi > <http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi>>> > >> > >> -- > >> ================================================================ > >> Aaron Wendel > >> Chief Technical Officer > >> Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097) > >> (816)550-9030 > >> http://www.wholesaleinternet.com <http://www.wholesaleinternet.com> > <http://www.wholesaleinternet.com/ <http://www.wholesaleinternet.com/>> > >> ================================================================ > >> > > > > -- > ================================================================ > Aaron Wendel > Chief Technical Officer > Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097) > (816)550-9030 > http://www.wholesaleinternet.com <http://www.wholesaleinternet.com> > ================================================================ > The content of this email (including any attachments) is intended for > the addressee only, is confidential and may be legally privileged. If > you’ve received this email in error, you shouldn’t read it - please > contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any of the > content of this email . No confidentiality or privilege is waived or > lost by any mis-transmission or error. This communication does not > designate an information system for the purposes of Part 4 of the > Contract and Commercial Law Act 2017. Although we have taken > reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in this email, > we cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising from > the use of this email or its attachments. -- ================================================================ Aaron Wendel Chief Technical Officer Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097) (816)550-9030 http://www.wholesaleinternet.com ================================================================

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Re: 10g residential CPE
by Peter E. Fry 29 Dec '20

29 Dec '20

> > From: Ben Cannon <ben(a)6by7.net> > To: Darin Steffl <darin.steffl(a)mnwifi.com> > [...] >> >> >> >> >> Again, it seems nice to be able to do this but most companies don't >> have idle resources sitting around to give away things for free. We >> have zero extra time to work for free. > We’re a tiny company and I already have a department dedicated to > giving [...] It's all in resource allocation, particularly as applied to a small company. I can't imagine 6x7 or Wholesale Internet have dedicated departments of bean counters (apparently no button-pushing monkeys as well, even if they work for bananas). The disadvantage is that particular individual personnel tend to be even less replaceable than in larger companies. Peter E. Fry [Hm: 6by7.net web page? That's even a bit sadder than mine...]

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Anyone from Draftkings.com on here?
by Matthew Crocker 29 Dec '20

29 Dec '20

Hoping someone from Draftkings.com is on this list. If so, please message me directly so I can get a subnet block cleared up. Thanks -Matt

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WP: Nashville bombing is a potent reminder that communications systems remain at risk from attack
by Sean Donelan 28 Dec '20

28 Dec '20

A bunch of quotes from former government officials. Not much from industry. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/nashville-bombing-is-a-pot… Nashville bombing is a potent reminder that communications systems remain at risk from attack [...] Experts applauded the telecommunications giant for responding quickly to the explosion by deploying portable cellular sites to help restore some service. But they were alarmed by the widespread nature of the outages, both in terms of geography as well as the variety of services affected. Key to constructing systems that can withstand attacks and natural disasters — and recover quickly — is avoiding a single point of failure, they said. [...]

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Re: 10g residential CPE
by Aaron Wendel 28 Dec '20

28 Dec '20

One. For an employee. Primarily just to say we had done it. :) Aaron On 12/26/2020 4:15 PM, Lady Benjamin PD Cannon wrote: > Have you done any 100g Residential connections? > > —L.B. > > Lady Benjamin PD Cannon, ASCE > 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC > CEO > ben(a)6by7.net <mailto:ben@6by7.net> > "The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company > in the world.” > FCC License KJ6FJJ > > >> On Dec 26, 2020, at 10:30 AM, Aaron Wendel >> <aaron(a)wholesaleinternet.net <mailto:aaron@wholesaleinternet.net>> wrote: >> >> We run MikroTik RB4011s for residential speeds between 1G and 10G or >> just supply a media converter. For residential 40G and 100G we just >> drop in Arista or Extreme switches. SMBs are normally just a media >> converter or direct fiber handoff. >> >> https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in >> <https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in> >> >> There are not a lot of options for good, off the shelf 10G CPE >> equipment. The handful of 10G residential customers we have seem to >> be happy with the tik. The couple that don’t use it have rolled >> their own solution. >> >> Like anything, I’m sure once the major home broadband providers start >> to catch up with us smaller guys the vendors will catch up as well. >> >> https://www.kcfiber.com/residential <https://www.kcfiber.com/residential> >> >> Aaron >> >> >>> On Dec 26, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mel Beckman <mel(a)beckman.org >>> <mailto:mel@beckman.org>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> i really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being >>>> deliberately obtuse. >>> >>> Michael, >>> >>> If vendors saw a 10GbE CPE market, they would serve it. Obviously >>> they don’t see a market. Why don’t people insisting vendors build >>> their hobby horse see that? It’s like they’re being deliberately >>> obtuse :) >>> >>> -mel via cell >>> >>>> On Dec 26, 2020, at 9:16 AM, Michael Thomas <mike(a)mtcc.com >>>> <mailto:mike@mtcc.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 12/26/20 8:00 AM, Valdis Klētnieks wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Anybody got a feel for what percent of the third-party gear >>>>> currently sold to >>>>> consumers has sane bufferbloat support in 2020, when we've *known* >>>>> that >>>>> de-bufferbloated gear is a viable differentiatior if marketed >>>>> right (consider the >>>>> percent of families that have at least one gamer who cares)? >>>>> >>>> I don't know percentages, but just trying to find cpe that support >>>> it in their specs is depressingly small. considering that they're >>>> all using linux and queuing discipline software is ages old, i >>>> really don't get what the problem is. it's like they're being >>>> deliberately obtuse. given all of the zoom'ing happening now you >>>> think that somebody would hit them with the clue-bat that this is a >>>> marketing opportunity. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> > -- ================================================================ Aaron Wendel Chief Technical Officer Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097) (816)550-9030 http://www.wholesaleinternet.com ================================================================

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Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
by Mark Tinka 26 Dec '20

26 Dec '20

On 12/26/20 13:41, Nuno Vieira wrote: > Once upon a time a wise main said “Who in their right mind would ever > need more than 640k of ram?” While everyone will take a chance at using this line at some point in a computing career, it's somewhat disingenuous to compare (or equate) the 640KB of RAM to anything today. There is always bare minimums we must hit before any additional infrastructure does not yield any further value. In economics, I believe it's called the Law of Diminishing Returns. 640KB may not be sufficient for any personal device today. However, what would you do with 256GB of RAM on your computer that you can't do with 64GB, in a home/domestic setting, as an average user? Yes, 1Mbps of bandwidth is likely too small for today's Internet, but what would you do with 10Gbps that you can't with, say, 750Mbps? Maybe we shall have VR on our devices which will make Zoom much more pleasant to use, but for as long as you don't see any 10Gbps CPE or XG-PON roll-outs happening en masse, that should signal something to you. There was a time when the number of megapixels on a phone or camera was the most important thing. That doesn't matter anymore, to the point of actually more megapixels returning poorer image quality. Just compare a photo taken in WhatsApp vs. a photo taken in Apple's native Camera app, same device. The smarts aren't in the hardware anymore. Similarly, while 10Gbps to the home may have sounded completely noteworthy in 2005, surprisingly, perhaps less so in 2020. Likely because the way the Internet works, how data is delivered, how it is stored, the role of the device, e.t.c., all make the case for either more bandwidth (on the provider/backbone side) or less bandwidth (on the consumer side). Mark.

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Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
by Mark Tinka 26 Dec '20

26 Dec '20

On 12/26/20 13:41, Nuno Vieira wrote: > Once upon a time a wise main said “Who in their right mind would ever need more than 640k of ram?” While everyone will take a chance at using this line at some point in a computing career, it's somewhat disingenuous to compare (or equate) the 640KB of RAM to anything today. There is always bare minimums we must hit before any additional infrastructure does not yield any further value. In economics, I believe it's called the Law of Diminishing Returns. 640KB may not be sufficient for any personal device today. However, what would you do with 256GB of RAM on your computer that you can't do with 64GB, in a home/domestic setting, as an average user? Yes, 1Mbps of bandwidth is likely too small for today's Internet, but what would you do with 10Gbps that you can't with, say, 750Mbps? Maybe we shall have VR on our devices which will make Zoom much more pleasant to use, but for as long as you don't see any 10Gbps CPE or XG-PON roll-outs happening en masse, that should signal something to you. There was a time when the number of megapixels on a phone or camera was the most important thing. That doesn't matter anymore, to the point of actually more megapixels returning poorer image quality. Just compare a photo taken in WhatsApp vs. a photo taken in Apple's native Camera app, same device. The smarts aren't in the hardware anymore. Similarly, while 10Gbps to the home may have sounded completely noteworthy in 2005, surprisingly, perhaps less so in 2020. Likely because the way the Internet works, how data is delivered, how it is stored, the roll of the device, e.t.c., all make the case for either more bandwidth (on the provider/backbone side) or less bandwidth (on the consumer side). Mark.

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