July 2007 - NANOG - lists.nanog.org

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by None 13 Jul '07

13 Jul '07

1b) with SMTP id <1.002D3E52(a)raven.utc.edu>; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:19:06 -0400 Received: from [172.30.0.19] qnh116 [172.30.0.19] by utc.edu with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 1.6 $ on Novell NetWare via secured & encrypted transport (TLS); Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:19:06 -0400 Message-ID: <4696EF15.6020704(a)utc.edu> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:18:45 -0400 From: Jeff Kell <jeff-kell(a)utc.edu> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (Windows/20070604) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Bush <randy(a)psg.com> CC: nanog(a)nanog.org Subject: Re: peter lothberg's mother slashdotted References: <12997.1184264272(a)sa.vix.com> <20070712133910.B8475(a)sprockets.gibbar d.org> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707122342300.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696AB85.1030407@in oc.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707130039220.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696B668.2080807@i noc.net> <4696C8DA.3070101(a)bogus.com> <4696D017.7010100(a)inoc.net> <4696D4A2.2010 001(a)psg.com> In-Reply-To: <4696D4A2.2010001(a)psg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu Precedence: bulk Errors-To: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu X-Loop: nanog X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/50, host=mozart.merit.edu X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A090207.4696F0B7.0062:SCGAP167720,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=198.108.1.26, so=2006-09-22 03:48:54, dmn=5.3.14/2007-05-31 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: NonJunk X-UID: 51 Randy Bush wrote: >> you're not going to find any 40GB capable CPE now or in the >> foreseeable future that's going to be affordable for the residence. >> > > i would agree if we had not once said that about a few meg per sec. If we continue along orders of magnitude, sure it's foreseeable. * 30 years ago, 300 baud was the bomb :-) * 3000 baud was roughly 2400bps days * 30000 baud gets us to ~28.8k * 300000 baud was about 2 ISDN lines (2x128k) * 3000000 baud is about typical cable these days (3m) That puts us about another 4 orders of magnitude (3 if you count FTTP/etc generally available enough to count 30m as "now") away from 30G to CPE. I'm sure there are more accurate timelines :-) Jeff

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by None 13 Jul '07

13 Jul '07

QWjnhEVCBxp+GKhBDXVU9WDCbf717iCaoqCE5/egJRdp+OJR3gqHXZiq+Qtpj1llxIsrWhkAkA+KNQbk n2iTHOGJr/MaLV60iNmjg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:c ontent-type:references; b=DQbAxh2FT3zItbD+EZ25UPW5zTWrb6hxZgWnnm9fOcW2EkMZyUAEtzNgzX3GPLOSMraUBd L7GUBseKBpn38du767NYreXDC/Tv2NlAcHHyT2pfYVnoH/9SB6FMtrIpdcc1snd6LMWTKMFydLFMFpVO MH0GkRJksQuj/xn7B2KOI= Received: by 10.82.116.15 with SMTP id o15mr1478042buc.1184296014415; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.172.9 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7bb79a490707122006g767c3d42u88e84d5782545355(a)mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:06:54 -0400 From: "micky coughes" <coughes(a)gmail.com> To: "Robert Blayzor" <rblayzor(a)inoc.net> Subject: Re: peter lothberg's mother slashdotted Cc: nanog(a)nanog.org In-Reply-To: <4696D017.7010100(a)inoc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_27080_26397708.1184296014222" References: <12997.1184264272(a)sa.vix.com> <20070712133910.B8475(a)sprockets.gibbard.org> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707122342300.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696AB85.1030407(a)inoc.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707130039220.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696B668.2080807(a)inoc.net> <4696C8DA.3070101(a)bogus.com> <4696D017.7010100(a)inoc.net> Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu Precedence: bulk Errors-To: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu X-Loop: nanog X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/50, host=mozart.merit.edu X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A090209.4696ED8A.0018:SCGAP167720,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=198.108.1.26, so=2006-09-22 03:48:54, dmn=5.3.14/2007-05-31 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: NonJunk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 7/12/07, Robert Blayzor <rblayzor(a)inoc.net> wrote: > > > > > > I know the intention of the article was to demonstrate the technological > advantage of fiber optic networking vs. other technologies, but to mask > the article around something that seems to indicate that "40GB to the > home" is somehow the current benchmark is incredibly unrealistic. > > -Robert I can see that *everybody* is missing the point on Peter's exercise. Clearly this is to show to the telcos of the world that you can upgrade to a native IP infrastructure and absorb the existing transport into the router with a minimal effort. There was a post here from someone that was there that explained how simple it was. This is HUGE! This has the potential to completely disrupt telco transport dinosaur groups *and* reshape the future. Taking it to his mom's house is just a poke in the telco eye, he is making fun of them. This then begs the question why can they do it between their facilities? If one guy can do it to a *house* it must not be that hard. However, telcos with transport groups of 1000s can't pull this off, this little project states volumes. ------=_Part_27080_26397708.1184296014222 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline <br><br> <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 7/12/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Robert Bl ayzor</b> <<a href="mailto:rblayzor@inoc.net">rblayzor(a)inoc.net</a>> wrote :</span> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0. 8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><br><br><br><br>I know the intention of the ar ticle was to demonstrate the technological<br>advantage of fiber optic networkin g vs. other technologies, but to mask <br>the article around something that seems to indicate that "40GB to the<b r>home" is somehow the current benchmark is incredibly unrealistic.<br><br> -Robert</blockquote> <div> </div> <div>I can see that *everybody* is missing the point on Peter's exercise.&nb sp; Clearly this is to show to the telcos of the world that you can upgrade to a native IP infrastructure and absorb the existing transport into the router with a minimal effort.  There was a post here from someone that was there that explained how simple it was.   This is HUGE!  This has the p otential to completely disrupt telco transport dinosaur groups *and* reshape the future.  Taking it to his mom's house is just a poke in the telco eye, he is making fun of them.  This then begs the question why can they d o it between their facilities?  If one guy can do it to a *house* it must n ot be that hard.  However, telcos with transport groups of 1000s can't pull this off, this little project states volumes. </div><br> </div><br> ------=_Part_27080_26397708.1184296014222--

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by None 13 Jul '07

13 Jul '07

d.org> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707122342300.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696AB85.1030407@in oc.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707130039220.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696B668.2080807@i noc.net> <4696C8DA.3070101(a)bogus.com> <4696D017.7010100(a)inoc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0B45439E-DD83-47F7-B5B7-8647EDF30A70(a)zill.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Patrick Giagnocavo <patrick(a)zill.net> Subject: Re: peter lothberg's mother slashdotted Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:53:03 -0400 To: nanog(a)nanog.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu Precedence: bulk Errors-To: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu X-Loop: nanog X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/50, host=mozart.merit.edu X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A090208.4696EA15.004A:SCGAP167720,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=198.108.1.26, so=2006-09-22 03:48:54, dmn=5.3.14/2007-05-31 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: NonJunk X-UID: 49 On Jul 12, 2007, at 9:06 PM, Robert Blayzor wrote: > > I know the intention of the article was to demonstrate the > technological advantage of fiber optic networking vs. other > technologies, but to mask the article around something that seems > to indicate that "40GB to the home" is somehow the current > benchmark is incredibly unrealistic. > > -Robert What would be the best way to phrase it? 40TTH? GTTH (gigabit to the home)? If you can use the Indian name for 10 million in there somewhere, you can brag about "quad-crore" speeds ... --Patrick

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Re: TCP congestion
by Jay Hennigan 13 Jul '07

13 Jul '07

Philip Lavine wrote: > Can someone explain how a TCP conversation could degenerate into congestion av oidance on a long fat pipe if there is no packet/segment loss or out of order se gments? > > Here is the situation: > WAN = 9 Mbps ATM connection between NY and LA (70 ms delay) > LAN = Gig Ethernet > Receiver: LA server = Win2k3 > Sender: NY server = Linux 2.4 > Data transmission typical = bursty but never more that 50% of CIR > Segment sizes = 64k to 1460k but mostly less than 100k > > Typical Problem Scenario: Data transmission is humming along consistently at 2 Mbps, all of a sudden transmission rates drop to nothing then pickup again afte r 15-20 seconds. Prior to the drop off (based on packet capture) there is usuall y a DUP ACK/SACK coming from the receiver followed by the Retransmits and conges tion avoidence. What is strange is there is nothing prior to the drop off that w ould be an impetus for congestion (no high BW utilization or packet loss). > > Also is there any known TCP issues between linux 2.4 kernel and windows 2003 S P1? Mainly are there issues regarding the handling of SACK, DUP ACK's and Fast R etransmits. > > Of course we all know that this is not a application issue since developers ma ke flawless socket code, but if it is network issue how is caused? Duplex mismatch on an intermediate ethernet segment? -- Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Engineering - jay(a)impulse.net Impulse Internet Service - http://www.impulse.net/ Your local telephone and internet company - 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV

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Re: peter lothberg's mother slashdotted
by Randy Bush 13 Jul '07

13 Jul '07

d.org> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707122342300.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696AB85.1030407@in oc.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707130039220.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696B668.2080807@i noc.net> <4696C8DA.3070101(a)bogus.com> <4696D017.7010100(a)inoc.net> In-Reply-To: <4696D017.7010100(a)inoc.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu Precedence: bulk Errors-To: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu X-Loop: nanog X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/50, host=mozart.merit.edu X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A090204.4696D52A.0095:SCGAP167720,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=198.108.1.26, so=2006-09-22 03:48:54, dmn=5.3.14/2007-05-31 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 > you're not going to find any 40GB capable CPE now or in the > foreseeable future that's going to be affordable for the residence. i would agree if we had not once said that about a few meg per sec. randy

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by None 13 Jul '07

13 Jul '07

NbwMvYItZ/yhmeizQs5PAXpb76Rzx2GXeOm1BvaVus1mJtLqxcbjpnZwZRpGxMciLmLW9sqcz4rxon6L hU7Bletqm3+UTqGTuzK50=; Received: from [172.17.67.246] (unverified [12.104.158.98]) by mx1-b.inoc.net (build v7.5.2) with ESMTP id 127880137-1941382 for <nanog(a)nanog.org>; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 01:06:32 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4696D017.7010100(a)inoc.net> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:06:31 -0400 From: Robert Blayzor <rblayzor(a)inoc.net> Organization: INOC, LLC User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (Windows/20070604) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nanog(a)nanog.org Subject: Re: peter lothberg's mother slashdotted References: <12997.1184264272(a)sa.vix.com> <20070712133910.B8475(a)sprockets.gibbar d.org> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707122342300.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696AB85.1030407@in oc.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707130039220.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696B668.2080807@i noc.net> <4696C8DA.3070101(a)bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <4696C8DA.3070101(a)bogus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu Precedence: bulk Errors-To: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu X-Loop: nanog Joel Jaeggli wrote: >> How practical is it really also that you need CRS-1 at the residence for >> this. I agree with Sean. Since for most people the line card alone >> costs more than the house. :-) > > 40Gb/s per slot routers are not that rare at this point. So the notion > that you need a crs-1 in order to capitalize on 40G is I think > demonstrably false. As I said, "at the residence". I could care less if it's a CRS-1 or Acme router. My point is, you're not going to find any 40GB capable CPE now or in the foreseeable future that's going to be affordable for the residence. I know the intention of the article was to demonstrate the technological advantage of fiber optic networking vs. other technologies, but to mask the article around something that seems to indicate that "40GB to the home" is somehow the current benchmark is incredibly unrealistic. -Robert

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Re: peter lothberg's mother slashdotted
by Joel Jaeggli 13 Jul '07

13 Jul '07

d.org> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707122342300.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696AB85.1030407@in oc.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707130039220.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696B668.2080807@i noc.net> In-Reply-To: <4696B668.2080807(a)inoc.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.2/3653/Thu Jul 12 22:15:16 2007 on nagasaki.bogus.c om X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu Precedence: bulk Errors-To: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu X-Loop: nanog X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/50, host=mozart.merit.edu X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A090203.4696CA12.0111:SCGAP167720,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=198.108.1.26, so=2006-09-22 03:48:54, dmn=5.3.14/2007-05-31 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: NonJunk X-UID: 45 Robert Blayzor wrote: > How practical is it really also that you need CRS-1 at the residence for > this. I agree with Sean. Since for most people the line card alone > costs more than the house. :-) 40Gb/s per slot routers are not that rare at this point. So the notion that you need a crs-1 in order to capitalize on 40G is I think demonstrably false. The amount of link aggregation being done at 10Gb/s would tend to indicate that need for > 40Gb/s links is becoming acute enough to make it a commercially worthwhile problem to solve if not cheap for the early adopters. As consumers we would all benefit from standardization of 40 and 100Gb/s ethernet phy. > -Robert >

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by None 13 Jul '07

13 Jul '07

d.org> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707122342300.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696AB85.1030407@in oc.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707130039220.29164(a)uplift.swm.pp.se> <4696B668.2080807@i noc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <ACFC7F1E-B1F2-4519-A898-33F787CC3D06(a)multicasttech.com> Cc: nanog(a)nanog.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marshall Eubanks <tme(a)multicasttech.com> Subject: Re: peter lothberg's mother slashdotted Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:51:49 -0400 To: Robert Blayzor <rblayzor(a)inoc.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu Precedence: bulk Errors-To: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu X-Loop: nanog On Jul 12, 2007, at 7:16 PM, Robert Blayzor wrote: > > Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >> I have to disagree, considering the amount of people I've had to >> convice that this really is a single 50GHz wave using 40G per >> second over DWDM system designed for 10G and that it was router >> "LC - optical amplification - LC" > > > Well yes, the technology is quite cool, I'm not debating that. The > fact that it works at his mothers house (residential) doesn't > really have any significance. I don't think you have anyone out > there debating against caping out the upper limits of bandwidth on > what we can get over a single strand of glass. > > I look at this article and say "so what". Now you've gotten the > packets to the house. Now what? Wait 10, 15 or 20 years while > companies try to find ways to get content do you? 1500 HD > channels, thats a lot of TV sets. You can have all the bandwidth > you want, but but until there an actual use for 40Gbps at the home > all you're going to have is the worlds fastest BitTorrent or on net > porn PPV network. Uncompressed HD TV (typically 1.54 Gbps / channel) comes to mind, for which there are applications, albeit typically not residential so far. See, e.g., http://www.gloriad-kr.org/hdtv/ http://ultragrid.east.isi.edu/2005-02-APAN.pdf Regards Marshall > > How practical is it really also that you need CRS-1 at the > residence for this. I agree with Sean. Since for most people the > line card alone costs more than the house. :-) > > -Robert

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None
by None 12 Jul '07

12 Jul '07

h Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:21:36 +0100 Message-ID: <4696B6EC.3050305(a)ukbroadband.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:19:08 +0100 From: Leigh Porter <leigh.porter(a)ukbroadband.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (Macintosh/20070604) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brandon Butterworth <brandon(a)rd.bbc.co.uk> CC: nanog(a)nanog.org Subject: Re: peter lothberg's mother slashdotted References: <200707122141.WAA06503(a)sunf10.rd.bbc.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <200707122141.WAA06503(a)sunf10.rd.bbc.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jul 2007 23:21:36.0952 (UTC) FILETIME=[64B08380:01C7C4 DB] Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu Precedence: bulk Errors-To: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu X-Loop: nanog X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/50, host=mozart.merit.edu X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A090205.4696BF0F.0112:SCGAP167720,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=198.108.1.26, so=2006-09-22 03:48:54, dmn=5.3.14/2007-05-31 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: NonJunk X-UID: 41 I see a global demand for perhaps 5 CRS-1s ;-) Brandon Butterworth wrote: >> Wouldn't residential fiber be >> expected to radiate out from neighborhood break-out boxes, or at the >> longest from a central office in the middle of town, rather than having >> some central point where enough individual strands of fiber converged to >> serve everybody in a 2,000 kilometer radius? >> > > CRS-1 so expensive there'll only be one per country. > > brandon >

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Re: some musings on PI v. PA
by Seth Mattinen 12 Jul '07

12 Jul '07

e.php X-Rollernet-Submit: Submit ID 2c4f.4696bed2.ba6e4.0 Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu Precedence: bulk Errors-To: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu X-Loop: nanog X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/50, host=mozart.merit.edu X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A090203.4696C70E.0163:SCGAP167720,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=198.108.1.26, so=2006-09-22 03:48:54, dmn=5.3.14/2007-05-31 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: NonJunk X-UID: 44 David Meyer wrote: > OTOH, if I announce PI space, "switching to the new path" > is controlled by the announcement/withdrawal of the PI > prefix, and can happen much closer to the source. So in > this sense aggregation breaks a certain kind of "path > selection". I think we all realize that there is no free > lunch, and that this is a property (such as it is) of the > fact that aggregation throws away information in the > interest of computability (a standard technique). > > So folks are using PI for reasons other than the > well-known standard laundry list. In particular, > advertising PI space can cause the "switch" to an > alternate path during an outage to happen much closer to > the source and some providers find this to be a desirable > property. > > I am interested in hearing about anyone who is relying on > this property of PI, or any other comments on what I've > said above. > I always thought that *was* one of the major reasons to use PI space - no aggregation of your space into another announcement. Not having to renumber is ancillary to me. ~Seth

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