April 1995 - NANOG - lists.nanog.org

Re: Has PSI been assigned network 1?
by Vadim Antonov 20 Apr '95

20 Apr '95

Dale, thanks for the informative response (much better than our regularly scheduled flames). Few remarks: > 1) The availability of useful tools (such as prtraceroute) that will > only work correctly across you network if your data is registered > correctly. (Even if you don't use these tools, your neighbor ISPs > may start sending you prtraceroutes across your network that show your > routing or your policy description is wrong). Long time ago i asked our friends at cisco to do the neat thing which in many cases does what prtraceroute would do (note AS tags). Granted, it does not check correspondence with registry data :) SL-DC-1>trace sovcom.kiae.su Translating "SOVCOM.KIAE.SU"...domain server (192.94.207.66) [OK] Type escape sequence to abort. Tracing the route to SOVCOM.KIAE.SU (144.206.136.1) 1 SL-DC-8-F0/0.SPRINTLINK.NET (144.228.20.8) 4 msec 0 msec 4 msec 2 SL-MAE-E-H2/0-T3.SPRINTLINK.NET (144.228.10.42) 8 msec 0 msec 4 msec 3 VIENNA1.VA.ALTER.NET (192.41.177.249) [AS 701] 12 msec 4 msec 4 msec 4 VIENNA3.VA.ALTER.NET (137.39.11.4) [AS 701] 4 msec 96 msec 4 msec 5 AMSTERDAM2.NL.EU.NET (134.222.35.1) [AS 286] 88 msec 204 msec 220 msec 6 AMSTERDAM6.NL.EU.NET (134.222.32.2) [AS 286] 108 msec 104 msec 104 msec 7 HELSINKI1.FI.EU.NET (134.222.27.2) [AS 286] 200 msec 172 msec 128 msec 8 STPETERSBURG.RU.EU.NET (134.222.23.2) [AS 286] 188 msec 196 msec * 9 MOSCOW-M9-2.RELCOM.EU.NET (193.124.254.34) [AS 2118] 204 msec 188 msec 260 msec 10 MOSCOW-KIAE-3.RELCOM.EU.NET (193.124.254.38) [AS 2118] 256 msec 388 msec 424 msec 11 SOVCOM.KIAE.SU (144.206.136.1) [AS 2118] 240 msec 248 msec 188 msec SL-DC-1> > 2) The registry is the method by which you specify your policy for > the Route Servers (if you use them). Yes. That's the point -- RSes aren't immediately useful (at least with our particular setup), and registry will not have accurate data if that data is not used to actually do routing. > 3) Some other major ISPs will not route nets that are not registered. My private communications with engineering people of several major ISPs indicate that they're essentially in the same position re. RS as we are. >The email interface to the RADB and IRR is one that has been running at >RIPE for a couple of years (also an email/template interface). e-mail is fine when you file one change a week. When you have to keep a full-time person just to process NACRs (as we are) things are different. >RIPE's user community lists improving the user interface as a rather low >priority. Yeah -- but that is exactly what can kill IRR in US. >Nonetheless, the code is structured in such a way that >telnet, web, or other interfaces would be extremely easy to integrate >(once authentication was established). What kind of interface would >you like to see? telnet & web. Also, some formalized interface for direct database interaction is necessary. We configure routers automatically when implementation people create appropriate recodrs in our internal database. We'd like to do that with entering routing data as well. E-mail is not sufficient because you have to parse replies. I would prefer SMTP-style interface, so when our database program is used to configure routing it can automatically connect the IRR and update it. There should be two different IRR machines for AS owners only (the one which allows updates) and the one which responds on queries from the general public, so we can get reasonable responsiveness, w/o "please try again"s. >How often >ISPs choose to regenerate their config files is a separate question. >(I think everyone is planning updates more frequently than twice per >week now). This is inacceptable. It should be done immediately; or people will simply ignore the whole thing (why should we wait when we simply can establish BGP peering, so it will work immediately?) >If you want to add a net to the IRR and then have that change immediately >reflected in the configuration files of all ISPs who do full net-based >filtering, you may have to have some discussions with them. (But the >data will be there and waiting in the registry). No, there should be some protocol for dynamic updating ISP's copies of the database. > There should be well-defined and useful interface to service > providers databases. >I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you issue the command: "whois >-h whois.ra.net <net>" It is retrieval. It is not interactive modification. (And it is slow. I would like to be able to establish a connection and do a thousand of queries. Some my nasty scripts call whois several thousand times.) It also lacks query functions (what are all networks i'm supposed to hear from peer X?, which networks Lollypop Inc. owns?) For example, one menu of Sprint's internal database: Please enter customer ID [type Return if not known]: You may try to find the customer by: 1) Organization name 2) City name 3) Name of a person 4) Telephone/fax number 5) E-mail address 6) IP network address 7) Dial-in phone number Your choice? >> It should be secure. >This has lots of aspects. We have implemented PGP for the interface >(not yet released), and are working with the CERT to establish that >other security concerns are addressed. More specific discussion is >welcome on a smaller list. It should be _very_ secure. It would be very attractive target for hackers. PGP is fine; what about security for on-line interfaces; and who guarantees security of RS machines? A multimillion corporation cannot put its business at risk of being dependent on a machine controlled by somebody else, w/o contractual obligations on adequate security. [I understand that i want too much, but then...] >Yes, we were listening in Boulder. Some enhancements (to support >AS-path expressions) have all ready been coded, and Cengiz Alaettinoglu >and Daniel Karrenberg have all ready set up an IETF working group with >an aggressive schedule for implementing for an enhanced language. >(An early version of the implementation is started, I believe). Glad to hear that :) --vadim

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Re: Has PSI been assigned network 1?
by Vadim Antonov 20 Apr '95

20 Apr '95

Hank Nussbacher <HANK(a)taunivm.tau.ac.il> wrote: >The e-mail interface >of NACRs is close to uselessness, and too big headache to deal with. >Waiting time on processing is simply ridiculous. >I've been sending updates to auto-dbm(a)ripe.net for the past 2 years >with no problem. You don't have to keep a full-time engineer just to handle NACRs, do you? >There should be a host accepting telnet sessions for on-line >updates (which have to be installed *immediately*, so whoever >added a network can test connectivity and go ahead). >telent info.ripe.net to test it out. RIPE database does not control the actual routing. I'm not sure the current RADB project has any mention of real-time updates of gated from the database. With dozens of updates we do every day it nearly as good as useless. >There should be well-defined and useful interface to service >providers databases. > >It should be secure. >I use a password on all AS updates to AS378. You call *that* secure? We have way too many people who need to do changes for our AS-es. Check the contact list for AS1800. > Without that i do not see RADB being successful or useful beyond the > point of filtering updates from particularly obnoxious peers. >It may not have everything we want today but it is an excellent starting >platform. If i can't implement my existing policy, i cannot use RADB, ok? (Well, we _will_ use it -- to talk to people whose announcements are loaded with garbadge). We simply cannot use it to talk to major service providers because policies in place cannot be represented in RIPE-81. --vadim

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Re: Has PSI been assigned network 1?
by Sean Donelan 20 Apr '95

20 Apr '95

> > If pizzahut wants to reach a wider community, they can ask their > > provider to register their route in the RADB. From a routing > > standpoint all it needs is the prefix, prefix length, and the home-AS. >Right! Case in point that there is some benefit you may get from >registereing in the routing registry. Another benefit would be more >meaningful output from tools like prtraceroute: Of course I notice the lack of PRDB/RADB/IRR registration didn't effect your reaching the network. It seems to be a very reachable site regardless of one or two network provider's policies. Yes, network providers can stamp their feet and say they won't accept a network announcement unless it is in the IRR, or is not properly CIDRized, or is not an even number. But there will be other network providers who will get your traffic there anyway. So you have a choice, use one network provider who only routes "registered" networks and not reach certain sites. Or choose a different network provider who isn't as dogmatic and reach more networks. I use www.pizzahut.com as an example because it is memorable. You may not be able to justify it as R&E. But it makes for an easy to demostrate, concrete example of the effects of policy on Internet routing for the layperson. There are several hundred similar networks in the "Greater Internet." Somehow life goes on even though one or two network providers deny their customers access to these networks. Maybe we should change the slogan to "The Internet treats dogmatic policy as damage and bypasses it." Welcome to the competive market. -- Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO Affiliation given for identification not representation

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Re: Has PSI been assigned network 1?
by Vadim Antonov 20 Apr '95

20 Apr '95

jgs(a)aads.net (John G. Scudder) wrote: >What AS690 does is not just bureaucratic silliness. It's also enlightened >self-interest (as Curtis keeps saying). If enough people have the sense to >want to protect themselves, the Routing Registry will fly. I agree with the idea of Routing Registry (although i'm more than sceptical about RADB in its present form, replacing distributed computation with a cental box not controlled by the service providers). However, my point is that it should be easy to use and should be on-line; the NACR-style configuration nightmare is not going to fly. --vadim

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Re: Has PSI been assigned network 1?
by Hank Nussbacher 20 Apr '95

20 Apr '95

On Wed, 19 Apr 1995 13:50:52 -0400 you said: >Well, there is a big _if_: if things will work w/o RADB (and they >will, for no sane provider will use RADB as the sole source of >exterior information at peering points, not for at least before >it became the proven and stable service) -- people will forget >to update things, cut the corners, etc. The Ebone access I get via CERN is controlled strictly via the prototype RADB at ripe.net. It works flawlessly. >RADB got to be easy to use to become real. The e-mail interface >of NACRs is close to uselessness, and too big headache to deal with. >Waiting time on processing is simply ridiculous. I've been sending updates to auto-dbm(a)ripe.net for the past 2 years with no problem. >There should be a host accepting telnet sessions for on-line >updates (which have to be installed *immediately*, so whoever >added a network can test connectivity and go ahead). telent info.ripe.net to test it out. >There should be well-defined and useful interface to service >providers databases. > >It should be secure. I use a password on all AS updates to AS378. >RADB should be able to implement _existing_ routing policies, >not the subset which can be defined in RIPE-81 (it currently >can't, there are places which use a lot of _very_ hairy stuff). > >Without that i do not see RADB being successful or useful beyond the >point of filtering updates from particularly obnoxious peers. It may not have everything we want today but it is an excellent starting platform. >--vadim Hank

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Re: Has PSI been assigned network 1?
by Sean Donelan 20 Apr '95

20 Apr '95

>We don't trust our peers. We only accept routes which they are >registered as providing transit for in the PRDB. When the RADB is in >use, unless PSI has a route object for 1.0.0.0/8 in the RADB, we still >won't trust them when they try to pass us 1/8. Then you're back to the www.pizzahut.com(192.112.170.243) example. Reachable from most places as long as you don't touch NSFNET/ANSNET and the PRDB. -- Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO Affiliation given for identification not representation

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Re: Has PSI been assigned network 1?
by Vadim Antonov 20 Apr '95

20 Apr '95

>Is PGP secure enough for you? Secure _telnet_. >RIPE-181; it's different. Not that much. I used RIPE-81 as a generic name. In general case routing policies which can be implemented by border routers _cannot_ be implemented in a central box interfacing those border boxes -- simply because those boxes may have (and do have) exterior peering sessions on other links/LANs. A large part of routing policies (particularly between US and Europe) is implemented as intricate interior weighting systems between announcements from different sides. Whoever wants to play with it can have our ICM-DC-1 configuration, just to try to represent what it does in RIPE-181 format. >Without that i do not see RADB being successful or useful beyond the >point of filtering updates from particularly obnoxious peers. Which is already a big win, seeing as how there are a good number of particularly obnoxious peers out there, some of them quite large. >I have to ask if you have actually looked at the RADB and surrounding >pieces at all. I've read papers abour RADB. They're not very clear on many issues. In any case, my point is that RADB has to be provider-friendly to be successful. --vadim

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Re: Has PSI been assigned network 1?
by Curtis Villamizar 20 Apr '95

20 Apr '95

In message <199504180716.AA12431(a)interlock.ans.net>, Hank Nussbacher writes: > On Mon, 17 Apr 1995 12:00:24 -0400 you said: > >Curtis > > > >BTW- You might try a traceroute to an address in 140.222/16. That's > >the ANS backbone. For example, traceroute 140.222.32.62 would verify > >that you could reach ANS NY POP. Traceroute 140.222.1.1 would give > >you a !H as soon as you reach an ANS interface (look for t3.ans.net in > >the DNS if the response is not from a 140.222 address). > > Will 140.222.0.0 continue to work? We 'ip default-network 140.222.0.0' > and will have to change if this NSFnet backbone net ceases to exist. > I would bet lots of smaller ISPs have this net out there in their > routing tables as gateway of last resort. > > Thanks, > +---------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Hank Nussbacher | > | Inter-University Computer Center IBM | > | Tel-Aviv University Rechov Weizmann 2 > | Ramat Aviv ISRAEL Tel Aviv ISRAEL | > | | > | Work phone: +972-3-6408309 Work phone: +972-3-6978852 | > | Work fax: +972-3-6409118 | > | Home phone: +972-9-920165 | > | Home fax: +972-9-920166 | > | | > | Internet: hank(a)vm.tau.ac.il or hankn(a)vnet.ibm.com | > | | > | Crash dummy of the Israeli Information Highway | > +---------------------------------------------------------------+ The network number 140.222/16 will continue to be the address of the ANS backbone. This network is not going away any time soon. The only conceivable reason (long term maybe - no plan at this point) we might get rid of 140.222 would be if we could compress all our routers and interface numbers into a smaller prefix and wanted to be really good CIDR citizens and renumber our backbone. (very unlikely unless the number allocation problem becomes critical in the years to come). You might be better off directing a default route at your primary provider, though aiming at 140.222 won't make much difference from a distance in the topology. We are aware of the widespread use of 140.222 among smaller providers. Unlike 129.40 (the former T1 backbone, later reassigned to IBM Kingston), 140.222 is not being shutdown. The one practice ANS is trying to stop is our immediate peers pointing a default route at us for the purpose of gaining free transit connectivity to other providers pointing default at other interchanges. To my knowledge, though we are unhappy with the practice, no shutdown ultimatims have been issued. Curtis PS - I don't think any provider will be losing connectivity to 140.222 in the upcoming transition, but would stand corrected if anyone has better information. PPS - Nice .sig "Crash dummy of the Israeli Information Highway". :-)

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Re: Has PSI been assigned network 1?
by jgs＠aads.net 20 Apr '95

20 Apr '95

At 8:50 PM 4/18/95, Vadim Antonov wrote: >> We don't trust our peers. We only accept routes which they are >> registered as providing transit for in the PRDB. When the RADB is in >> use, unless PSI has a route object for 1.0.0.0/8 in the RADB, we still >> won't trust them when they try to pass us 1/8. > >Curtis, you are able to do that only because all others were >legally bound to fill your database. > >I'm not sure people will be spending their resources on >populating database for somebody else's benefit. Then again, I'm not sure that people will be spending their resources exchanging routing information with people who allow junk into their routing. (To put it another way, spending resources troubleshooting other people's brain damage.) What AS690 does is not just bureaucratic silliness. It's also enlightened self-interest (as Curtis keeps saying). If enough people have the sense to want to protect themselves, the Routing Registry will fly. --John

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Re: Has PSI been assigned network 1?
by Dale S. Johnson 20 Apr '95

20 Apr '95

Vadim, > Few remarks: > > > 1) The availability of useful tools (such as prtraceroute) that will > > only work correctly across you network if your data is registered > > correctly. (Even if you don't use these tools, your neighbor ISPs > > may start sending you prtraceroutes across your network that show your > > routing or your policy description is wrong). > > Long time ago i asked our friends at cisco to do the neat thing > which in many cases does what prtraceroute would do (note AS > tags). Granted, it does not check correspondence with registry data :) > > SL-DC-1>trace sovcom.kiae.su > Translating "SOVCOM.KIAE.SU"...domain server (192.94.207.66) [OK] > > Type escape sequence to abort. > Tracing the route to SOVCOM.KIAE.SU (144.206.136.1) > > 1 SL-DC-8-F0/0.SPRINTLINK.NET (144.228.20.8) 4 msec 0 msec 4 msec > 2 SL-MAE-E-H2/0-T3.SPRINTLINK.NET (144.228.10.42) 8 msec 0 msec 4 msec > 3 VIENNA1.VA.ALTER.NET (192.41.177.249) [AS 701] 12 msec 4 msec 4 msec > 4 VIENNA3.VA.ALTER.NET (137.39.11.4) [AS 701] 4 msec 96 msec 4 msec > 5 AMSTERDAM2.NL.EU.NET (134.222.35.1) [AS 286] 88 msec 204 msec 220 msec > 6 AMSTERDAM6.NL.EU.NET (134.222.32.2) [AS 286] 108 msec 104 msec 104 msec > 7 HELSINKI1.FI.EU.NET (134.222.27.2) [AS 286] 200 msec 172 msec 128 msec > 8 STPETERSBURG.RU.EU.NET (134.222.23.2) [AS 286] 188 msec 196 msec * > 9 MOSCOW-M9-2.RELCOM.EU.NET (193.124.254.34) [AS 2118] 204 msec 188 msec 260 msec > 10 MOSCOW-KIAE-3.RELCOM.EU.NET (193.124.254.38) [AS 2118] 256 msec 388 msec 424 msec > 11 SOVCOM.KIAE.SU (144.206.136.1) [AS 2118] 240 msec 248 msec 188 msec > > SL-DC-1> Nice. prtraceroute also has columns on the right to designate how the current route compares with the registered policy. (Is the route slow? Oh: its taking a tertiary backup path at the moment on this link). The RIPE PRIDE tools also include other tools: prcheck, that checks your policy against your neighbors', and prpath that analyzes your global connectivity (according to data in the IRR). ISI is also planning other global topology walker tools. > > > 2) The registry is the method by which you specify your policy for > > the Route Servers (if you use them). > > Yes. That's the point -- RSes aren't immediately useful (at least > with our particular setup), and registry will not have accurate data > if that data is not used to actually do routing. > > > 3) Some other major ISPs will not route nets that are not registered. > > My private communications with engineering people of several major ISPs > indicate that they're essentially in the same position re. RS as we are. Lets separate the Route Server and Routing Registry questions. No one will get connectivity to ANSNet's sites unless they register their routes somewhere in the IRR (RADB, RIPE, MCI, CANET, etc). If you have a customer who wants to get to one of those places, he needs to be registered. It is my understanding that one or more other large ISPs have declared the same policy. The more of the Internet that you can't get to without registering, the more people will be willing to register. Route Servers are optimizations. You can do without them, but as complexity of the interconnects grows they can save cycles for your routers and possibly time negotiating and keeping up to date on N bilateral agreements. > >The email interface to the RADB and IRR is one that has been running at > >RIPE for a couple of years (also an email/template interface). > > e-mail is fine when you file one change a week. When you have to keep > a full-time person just to process NACRs (as we are) things are different. > > >RIPE's user community lists improving the user interface as a rather low > >priority. > > Yeah -- but that is exactly what can kill IRR in US. > > >Nonetheless, the code is structured in such a way that > >telnet, web, or other interfaces would be extremely easy to integrate > >(once authentication was established). What kind of interface would > >you like to see? > > telnet & web. Also, some formalized interface for direct database > interaction is necessary. We configure routers automatically when > implementation people create appropriate recodrs in our internal > database. We'd like to do that with entering routing data as well. > > E-mail is not sufficient because you have to parse replies. I would > prefer SMTP-style interface, so when our database program is used > to configure routing it can automatically connect the IRR and update > it. My own preference is for a client on the user machine (and API) for direct authenticated updating of the database. > There should be two different IRR machines for AS owners only (the one > which allows updates) and the one which responds on queries from > the general public, so we can get reasonable responsiveness, w/o > "please try again"s. The PRDB server was originally down for two fifteen-minute periods per week (though that grew to two one-hour periods with table growth). We've designed that out of the RADB code. We have purchased multiple machines for this kind of purpose (as well as for hot backup of the primary machine). More work to be done, of course, but system load is not a problem yet. > >How often > >ISPs choose to regenerate their config files is a separate question. > >(I think everyone is planning updates more frequently than twice per > >week now). > > This is inacceptable. It should be done immediately; or people will > simply ignore the whole thing (why should we wait when we simply > can establish BGP peering, so it will work immediately?) Depends on who you're peering with. If it is with an AS that does net-based filtering, you are still going to wait until their config files get updated. (Though the time required to run the config generator itself is very small: most NSSs config files are generated in a few seconds; the FIX NSS confg files take up to six minutes). Getting someone to do that generation, and to kick the router to use it, is a different issue. > >If you want to add a net to the IRR and then have that change immediately > >reflected in the configuration files of all ISPs who do full net-based > >filtering, you may have to have some discussions with them. (But the > >data will be there and waiting in the registry). > > No, there should be some protocol for dynamic updating ISP's copies > of the database. Under discussion and experimentation now. > > There should be well-defined and useful interface to service > > providers databases. > > >I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you issue the command: "whois > >-h whois.ra.net <net>" > > It is retrieval. It is not interactive modification. > > (And it is slow. I would like to be able to establish a connection > and do a thousand of queries. Some my nasty scripts call whois > several thousand times.) Telnet to radb.ra.net 5042, and type "-H" for help. We are supporting an "RPSLserver" on that port. Currently, the server is optimized to support queries useful for config file generation, but we will be adding to that. (This interface is cryptic: it is designed to support human-friendly clients). Yes, I know that we haven't done much PR about this yet, but that should come soon. > It also lacks query functions (what are all networks i'm supposed > to hear from peer X?, which networks Lollypop Inc. owns?) > > For example, one menu of Sprint's internal database: > > Please enter customer ID [type Return if not known]: > > You may try to find the customer by: > > 1) Organization name > 2) City name > 3) Name of a person > 4) Telephone/fax number > 5) E-mail address > 6) IP network address > 7) Dial-in phone number > > Your choice? RIPE's installation of the IRR provides this kind of query facility via wais. We can look at more options here, as well. The entire database is also up for ftp. Your nasty scripts can have all the data we have for the asking. > >> It should be secure. > > >This has lots of aspects. We have implemented PGP for the interface > >(not yet released), and are working with the CERT to establish that > >other security concerns are addressed. More specific discussion is > >welcome on a smaller list. > > It should be _very_ secure. It would be very attractive target > for hackers. Agreed. > PGP is fine; what about security for on-line interfaces; and who > guarantees security of RS machines? CERT was out here working with us on these issues a couple of weeks ago. > A multimillion corporation cannot put its business at risk of > being dependent on a machine controlled by somebody else, w/o > contractual obligations on adequate security. > > [I understand that i want too much, but then...] > > >Yes, we were listening in Boulder. Some enhancements (to support > >AS-path expressions) have all ready been coded, and Cengiz Alaettinoglu > >and Daniel Karrenberg have all ready set up an IETF working group with > >an aggressive schedule for implementing for an enhanced language. > >(An early version of the implementation is started, I believe). > > Glad to hear that :) :-) --Dale

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