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Re: Response from Cyber Promotions (fwd)
by Steve Noble 21 Apr '97

21 Apr '97

Hello :) This letter looks exactly like the one that AGIS sent me when i complained about personally receiving unsolicited SPAM from their network, note that i NEVER got a real reply, only this canned letter. Let's take a look : >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Dear Sir/Madam, > >Thank you for taking the time to write to Cyber Promotions with your concerns. > >Please be aware that this mailbox (abuse(a)cyberpromo.com) is read by many >people in our company, including our senior management. The fact that your >message garners e-mail from an auto-responder is to insure a timely response. >It should not be an indication of a lack of consideration or concern. Dear Sir/Madam, Thank you for taking the time to write to AGIS with your concerns. Please be aware that this mailbox (abuse(a)agis.net) is read by our entire company, including our senior management. The fact that your message garners e-mail from an auto-responder is to insure a timely response. It should not be an indication of a lack of consideration or concern. > >CYBER PROMOTIONS' POSITION ON ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY FOR INTERNET CONTENT >Cyber provides email services to a large number of customers, whom >are supporting thousands of end users. > >It is our position that the Internet is an open marketplace, where >commerce of any and all kinds may take place in accordance with public >demand. We do not believe censorship is the responsibility of an Internet >service provider. It is not our place to censor customers' content or >legitimate business practices. Messages originating from customer sites >reflect the opinions of our customers and not necessarily those of >Cyber Promotions. AGIS' POSITION ON ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY FOR INTERNET CONTENT AGIS provides Internet connectivity to a large number of customers, whom are supporting millions of end users. As a global service provider, we provide circuits for Internet backbone connectivity. We do not offer connectivity directly to end-users. It is our position that the Internet is an open marketplace, where commerce of any and all kinds may take place in accordance with public demand. We do not believe censorship is the responsibility of an Internet service provider. It is not our place to censor customers' content or legitimate business practices. Messages originating from customer sites reflect the opinions of our customers and not necessarily those of AGIS. > >SUGGESTIONS >Cyber is a pro-active organization with goals of delivering the highest >quality email solutions. Since we believe in continuous improvement, we >will re-evaluate our position in light of the any new regulatory developments. > >We appreciate that our position may not be agreeable to everyone. Further, >we understand your interest in seeking a solution. With that in mind, may >we suggest the following options: SUGGESTIONS AGIS is a pro-active organization with goals of delivering the highest quality solutions in support of the Internet's mission critical applications. Since we believe in continuous improvement, we will re-evaluate our position in light of the any new regulatory developments. We appreciate that our position may not be agreeable to everyone. Further, we understand your interest in seeking a solution. With that in mind, may we suggest the following options: > >- END-USERs - A variety of e-mail and filtering software packages are >available on the Internet for end-users. For example, Eudora and procmail >offer sufficient protection from e-mail of your undesired Internet sites. >Or you can use the latest in filtering software, e-Filter, sold on >Cyber's own web page at... http://www.cyberpromo.com (note - the fact that cybernation has the gaul to sell you a product to protect you against their unsolicited and costly use of your e-mail makes me sick) - END-USERs - A variety of e-mail and filtering software packages are available on the Internet for end-users. For example, Eudora and procmail offer sufficient protection from e-mail of your undesired Internet sites. > >- ISPs - Your mail servers and/or router systems can be set to reject >incoming spam or filter out offensive sites at the IP level. Sendmail and >ccmail are a few examples of good systems which perform these functions. > >Again, we would like to thank you for your valuable input, and wish you >continued success in your Internet experience. - ISPs - Your mail servers and/or router systems to can be set to reject incoming spam or filter out offensive sites at the IP level. Sendmail and ccmail are a few examples of good systems which perform these functions. - Also, visit http://spam.abuse.net/spam/ for some more helpful hints. Again, we would like to thank you for your valuable input, and wish you continued success in your Internet experience. > >Best Regards, > > The Cyber Promotions Staff > Best Regards, The AGIS Staff ... Well it seems to me that AGIS and Cyber Promotions have almost exactly the same view on SPAM and its acceptability and their accountability (taken from the fact that their letters are pretty much the same sans the name switch and a few additions/subtractions). Anyways.. just my .02$ :) Steve

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ATTENDEE LIST UPDATE
by Pam Ciesla 21 Apr '97

21 Apr '97

The attendee list has been update as of Monday, 4/21AM. If you have registered and your name does not appear on the list please let me know. Thanks Pam xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Pam Ciesla 313-936-0172 - phone Merit Network, Inc. 313-647-3185 - fax University of Michigan 4251 Plymouth Road Bldg. I, Suite C Ann Arbor, MI 48105-2785 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Re: What's going on?
by Sanjay Dani 21 Apr '97

21 Apr '97

>From markb(a)infi.net Thu Apr 17 19:49 PDT 1997 >Tell me about it. In the course of today's activities, I >learned that one of our users with a small commercial web site >on one of our servers spammed the net from an account on >another ISP. The spam contained a pointer to his URL on >our server. The spammer in this case is not misusing any of your resources. A web provider stands on a very tenuous ground. I fail to understand those--who would vandalize your network or incite others to vandalize it--who want to force that choice on you: >From: Michael Dillon <michael(a)memra.com> >I certainly don't condone any attacks on AGIS but I think this should be a >lesson that Internet users expect a certain standard of behavior from >network providers. While there may be no legal imperative to force network >providers to ehave in a certain way, the will of the people has a way of >making itself felt and we ignore it at our peril. (Internet users != hackers) I understand the will of the people to boycot a certain company or a product, but breaking into others' property? Sophistry like above deserves some of the blame for the break-ins. >Some of the mail seems to be holding us partially culpable >for the spam. I'm happy to report that the other ISP is taking >action against the spam complaint, but I don't know of any >interpretation of Netiquette that condemns commercial WWW sites. >I don't know that I'd favor an abuse policy that encompasses >WWW sites, even if they are listed elsewhere in spam mailings, Where does one draw the line? The phone company that gives phone service to the email spammer, the gazillion dollar software and hardware companies that sell their pc/email/browser products to the spammers? Break into them? It is easy to imagine the company some of the extermist anti-spammers would be keeping, at this rate. This issues has relevance to nanog--the veiled encouragement to break-ins I see here does result into network operational problems, more than most of the spams do. Sanjay. PS. I don't condone spamming, my company disconnect accounts that spam _from_ our network.

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Re: What's going on?
by Matthew James Gering 20 Apr '97

20 Apr '97

> > This issues has relevance to nanog--the veiled encouragement > > to break-ins I see here does result into network operational > > problems, more than most of the spams do. > > You misunderstand my point. I do NOT encourage breakins, mailbombing, > SYN-flooding or any other kind of attacks as a solution to the SPAM > problem. It's not a technical problem so technical solutions won't cut it. You are correct that SPAM itself is not a technical problem. But, mail-relaying *is* a technical problem -- and regardless of the the legalities of UCE (aka SPAM), unauthorized use of other MTA's as relays *is* network abuse. This can be solved technically. Once the originating MTA must be the same network as the originator of the SPAM, it will be much easier to deal with the SPAM issue. Matt

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Re: What's going on?
by lydia＠theurgy.digex.net 20 Apr '97

20 Apr '97

On Apr 17, 10:47pm, MARK BORCHERS wrote: > I don't know that I'd favor an abuse policy that encompasses > WWW sites, even if they are listed elsewhere in spam mailings, > but if there's a reasonable policy out there that contemplates > this type of situation, I'd love to know how it reads. [ Speaking only for myself. ] DIGEX's acceptable use policies prohibit customers spamming through DIGEX connections (whether individual dialup, leased line, or webserver hosting), _and_ they prohibit customers from advertising services hosted on DIGEX connections in a manner that violates DIGEX's no-spam policies or the AUP of another provider. We also explicitly prohibit customers from advertising in a manner that violates the Federal Trade Commision's Deception Policy Statement. This prevents somebody from reaping the benefits of a spam, regardless of where it originated from. It also means that even if the other provider doesn't take a responsible attitude towards his customers, the Internet community still has a second line of defense. It means that unethical businessmen can't go get throwaway Juno/CompuServe/etc. accounts, spam from them with the full knowledge that the accounts are going to be immediately cancelled, and pay nothing for the privilege. The policy is at http://www.access.digex.net/~policy/digex-aup.html for the curious. I certainly don't advocate hacker attacks on AGIS, if indeed AGIS was actually the subject of a denial of service attack. But I do think that AGIS, as a backbone provider, needs to take a more responsible attitude. When I log into my mail servers in the morning and find that my mail queue is jammed with fifteen thousand CyberPromo ads and legitimate customer traffic is slowed or stalled, as far as I'm concerned, that's something just short of a denial of service attack originating from AGIS netblocks. While it's clear that, right now, ISPs aren't really legally responsible for the behavior of their customers, from the standpoint of good business relations and the general cooperative attitude of the Internet, it seems irresponsible for a provider to fail to terminate customers who are obviously abusive. I'm currently working on a sendmail hack that will deal with only accepting relays from certain netblocks, expressed in IP prefix notation (the current sendmail capability of specifying, say, 204.91.98, is inadequate for me, since we have customers to have less than /24s). Until then, CyberPromo is my daily headache. Those people ought to be sued off the earth for theft of service. +-------------+--------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Lydia Leong | http://www.access.digex.net/~lwl/ | lydia(a)digex.net | | DIGEX, Inc. | Business Internet Connectivity Group | Systems Engineering | | 800-99DIGEX | Senior Systems Engineer / Postmaster | policy(a)digex.net | +-------------+--------------------------------------+---------------------+

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FINAL: MFS Outage: 6:30PM PDT 4/18/97 - ~1:30AM 4/19/97
by Jay Adelson 20 Apr '97

20 Apr '97

This final incident report is being sent at 1:14AM 4/19/97: UPDATE: (7:30PM PDT) Starting at approximately 6:30PM PDT, MFS's power unit on their fiber mux located at the Digital Internet Exchange is resetting every 30 seconds to 1 minute. All MFS fiber facilities are down during the power reset. This includes all MFS/Worldcom DS3 and T1 circuits entering the PAIX collocate facility. The IX Operations staff (Digital Internet Exchange Operations) believes that the problem is due to a bad rectifier on the fiber mux's power rack. We are currently waiting for MFS to provide a dispatch to fix this problem. UPDATE: (11:00PM PDT) At approximately 7:30PM, MFS arrived on site. We offered them clean power from our in-house UPS and rectifiers at this time, which would have prevented the rapid, regular resetting of their line cards. They were not interested in the power at this time. By 8:30PM, they were convinced their rectifier was the cause of their power loss. They still are not interested in our power. By 10:15, they had restored power to their rectifier. Many of their line cards, including an OC48, did not return back to an operational state, likely due to the rapid resetting previously. Again we offered our power, however now they definitely were convinced it was unnecessary as their rectifiers were functioning. Instead, they are forcing us to wait until next week. As of 11:00, the line cards are still not functioning. UPDATE: 12:10AM 4/19/97 As of 11:45PM, the MFS technicians decided to go ahead and begin cut over to our power so that at least the power is stable while they work on the line cards. They are currently working on this cutover. UPDATE: 1:14AM 4/19/97 By 12:15AM they changed their minds on the power cutover again. The electricians installed two redundant rectifiers and two additional batteries to the system, which should provide power until the cutover to the Digital Internet Exchange power next week. Also by this point they have determined that the problem with the line cards is due to the fact that they lost their configuration during the power fluctuations. They begin reprogramming them at this time. At 12:35AM, MFS customers begin reporting their services returning to an operational state. At 1:00AM, the MFS representative completes all programming. He says that the circuits will return to service, one by one, using a "time lapse" system over the next 30 to 35 minutes. By 1:35AM, all services should be restored. At 1:25AM, MFS left the site saying all circuits that were "called in" by their customers were on-line. If by 2:35AM your services are not restored, please contact MFS and give them your circuit I.D. We are available for any remote hands requirements in the facility at 1-800-209-9898. Thank you, -Jay Adelson ----------------------------------------------------------- Jay Adelson | Email: adelson(a)pa.dec.com Operations Manager | Voice: (415) 617-3607 Digital Internet Exchange | Fax: (415) 617-3233 ----------------------------------------------------------- Secure. Reliable. Connected.

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Re: MFS Outage 6:30PM PDT 4/18/97
by Paul R.D. Lantinga 20 Apr '97

20 Apr '97

> On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Jamie Rishaw wrote: > > > Uhm, since when is this outages(a)merit.edu? > While many on this list have almost assuredly seen the posting below, it demonstrates well that NANOG is not much different in nature than most other mailing lists. ;) -Paul Q: How many NANOG list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1,331: 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. >>>>>109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to alt.light.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversey. 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.light.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. -- Paul R.D. Lantinga #planting(a)vfi.com# Systems Administrator, Verifone IC "...'proactive' and 'paradigm', aren't these just buzzwords that dumb people use to sound important?"-The Simpsons

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Re: MFS Outage 6:30PM PDT 4/18/97
by Chris A. Icide 20 Apr '97

20 Apr '97

I appreciated the information. As a operationally orientated Engineer, I'm still in the position to make a few decisions upon who I use for services. MFS is a likely candidate to supply some local loops here and there, and information like this may prove beneficial to my role here. Additionally, someone may be sitting out there wondering why thier network is down, or having problems. IMHO, this notification was perfectly acceptable in this forum. Chris A. Icide Nap.Net, L.L.C. At 11:47 PM 4/18/97 -0400, Jamie Rishaw wrote: >Uhm, since when is this outages(a)merit.edu? > >> FYI: (7:30PM PDT) >> >> Starting at approximately 6:30PM PDT, MFS's power >> unit on their fiber mux located at the Digital Internet >> Exchange is resetting every 30 seconds to 1 minute. >> >> All MFS fiber facilities are down during the power >> reset. This includes all MFS/Worldcom DS3 and T1 >> circuits entering the PAIX collocate facility. >> >> The IX Operations staff (Digital Internet Exchange >> Operations) believes that the problem is due to a >> bad rectifier on the fiber mux's power rack. >> >> We are currently waiting for MFS to provide a dispatch >> to fix this problem. >> >> -Jay Adelson >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> Jay Adelson | Email: adelson(a)pa.dec.com >> Operations Manager | Voice: (415) 617-3607 >> Digital Internet Exchange | Fax: (415) 617-3233 >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> Secure. Reliable. Connected. >> > > >-- >jamie g.k. rishaw <jamie(a)iagnet.net> - Internet Access Group [www.iagnet.net] > - Cleveland-Pittsburgh-Detroit-Columbus-Akron-Toledo-Cincinnatti-Dayton - >Corp: (800) 637 4IAG / (216) 623 3565. DID: (216) 902 5455. FAX (216) 623 3566. >Personal: jamie@@arpa.com || jamie@@null.net (Remove second @, nonspammers) =) > >

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Re: MFS Outage 6:30PM PDT 4/18/97
by Sanjay Dani 19 Apr '97

19 Apr '97

>Additionally, someone may be sitting out there wondering >why thier network is down, or having problems. Just fyi: Jay's email let me go home at 7:30 PM friday-- after exploring all sorts of theories why our bgp to the CIX router was flapping every other minute--assured that suspending bgp to CIX earlier was the best thing to do for the day. I hope other exchanges will follow Jay's example. >IMHO, this notification was perfectly acceptable in this forum. Yup, certainly more appropriate than the rantings (including mine) about spamming :-) Sanjay.

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UPDATE: MFS Outage: 6:30PM PDT 4/18/97
by Jay Adelson 19 Apr '97

19 Apr '97

This update is being sent at 12:07AM 4/19/97: UPDATE: (7:30PM PDT) Starting at approximately 6:30PM PDT, MFS's power unit on their fiber mux located at the Digital Internet Exchange is resetting every 30 seconds to 1 minute. All MFS fiber facilities are down during the power reset. This includes all MFS/Worldcom DS3 and T1 circuits entering the PAIX collocate facility. The IX Operations staff (Digital Internet Exchange Operations) believes that the problem is due to a bad rectifier on the fiber mux's power rack. We are currently waiting for MFS to provide a dispatch to fix this problem. UPDATE: (11:00PM PDT) At approximately 7:30PM, MFS arrived on site. We offered them clean power from our in-house UPS and rectifiers at this time, which would have prevented the rapid, regular resetting of their line cards. They were not interested in the power at this time. By 8:30PM, they were convinced their rectifier was the cause of their power loss. They still are not interested in our power. By 10:15, they had restored power to their rectifier. Many of their line cards, including an OC48, did not return back to an operational state, likely due to the rapid resetting previously. Again we offered our power, however now they definitely were convinced it was unnecessary as their rectifiers were functioning. Instead, they are forcing us to wait until next week. As of 11:00, the line cards are still not functioning. UPDATE: 12:10AM 4/19/97 As of 11:45PM, the MFS technicians decided to go ahead and begin cut over to our power so that at least the power is stable while they work on the line cards. They are currently working on this cutover. More updates to follow, as soon as available. -Jay Adelson ----------------------------------------------------------- Jay Adelson | Email: adelson(a)pa.dec.com Operations Manager | Voice: (415) 617-3607 Digital Internet Exchange | Fax: (415) 617-3233 ----------------------------------------------------------- Secure. Reliable. Connected.

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