December 2000 - Test - lists.nanog.org

RE: Port scanning legal
by Larry Sheldon 20 Dec '00

20 Dec '00

Im glad you finally found something worthwhile to talk about. Shall we quote it several more times just to make the mpoint? > > And your sig is downright enormous. > > -Dan > > On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Larry Sheldon wrote: > > > > > Y'all have gotten tedious. > > -- > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > > . . > > - L. F. (Larry) Sheldon, Jr. - > > . Unix Systems and Network Administration . > > - Creighton University Computer Center-Old Gym - > > . 2500 California Plaza . > > - Omaha, Nebraska, U.S.A. 68178 Two identifying characteristics - > > . lsheldon(a)creighton.edu of System Administrators: . > > - 402 280-2254 (work) Infallibility, and the ability to - > > . 402 681-4726 (cellular) learn from their mistakes. . > > - 402 332-4622 (residence) - > > . http://www.creighton.edu/~lsheldon Adapted from Stephen Pinker . > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > > > -- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- . . - L. F. (Larry) Sheldon, Jr. - . Unix Systems and Network Administration . - Creighton University Computer Center-Old Gym - . 2500 California Plaza . - Omaha, Nebraska, U.S.A. 68178 Two identifying characteristics - . lsheldon(a)creighton.edu of System Administrators: . - 402 280-2254 (work) Infallibility, and the ability to - . 402 681-4726 (cellular) learn from their mistakes. . - 402 332-4622 (residence) - . http://www.creighton.edu/~lsheldon Adapted from Stephen Pinker . -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

3 2

(Somewhat OT) "Scary, Sneaky HR46"
by Marius Strom 20 Dec '00

20 Dec '00

It's somewhat off topic, but somewhat on-topic due to the wiretapping, forfeiture, and encryption sections: http://cryptome.org/hr46.htm -- Marius Strom <marius(a)marius.org> Professional Geek/Unix System Administrator URL: http://www.marius.org http://www.marius.org/marius.pgp 0x55DE53E4 "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a mini-van full of DLT tapes traveling down the highway at 65 miles per hour..." -Andrew Tanenbaum, "Computer Networks"

1 0

[OT] Stupid list participant
by Adam Rothschild 20 Dec '00

20 Dec '00

Seems Larry know how to use the "bounce" function in his mail client to make it look like I'm sending dupes to the list. Very impressive. Received: by segue.merit.edu (Postfix, from userid 56) id D7E445DDD0; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailjay.creighton.edu (mailjay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.126]) by segue.merit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CF15DDE1 for <nanog(a)merit.edu>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:45:17 -0500 (EST) [...] From: Adam Rothschild <asr(a)latency.net> To: Larry Sheldon <lsheldon(a)creighton.edu> NANOG admins, could you please block this fool from relaying msgs to the list? Thanks, -adam

1 0

Port scanning legal
by Edward S. Marshall 20 Dec '00

20 Dec '00

http://www.securityfocus.com/templates/article.html?id=126 A quick quote from the article: A tiff between two IT contractors that spiraled into federal court ended last month with a U.S. district court ruling in Georgia that port scanning a network does not damage it, under a section of the anti-hacking laws that allows victims of cyber attack to sue an attacker. Last week both sides agreed not to appeal the decision by judge Thomas Thrash, who found that the value of time spent investigating a port scan can not be considered damage. "The statute clearly states that the damage must be an impairment to the integrity and availability of the network," wrote the judge, who found that a port scan impaired neither. This may have ramifications for both security professionals and abuse desk personnel; this ruling would seem to make it clear that you cannot claim time spent investigating abuse issues as damage. The complete finding is here: http://pub.bna.com/eclr/00434.htm Any armchair lawyers on the list want to take a crack at this? -- Edward S. Marshall <emarshal(a)logic.net> http://www.nyx.net/~emarshal/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. ]

14 13

RE: [OT] Re: Port scanning legal
by Roeland Meyer 20 Dec '00

20 Dec '00

> Perhaps we should organize a central repository of e-mail addresses of > known net.k00ks, to help craft some filters accordingly? Wow! How about a .KOOKS TLD in the ORSC roots? What a concept! <g> NOTE: This DIDN'T go to NANOG.

1 0

Re: Port scanning legal
by Larry Sheldon 20 Dec '00

20 Dec '00

Well, let's quote it several more times--its a lot more interesting than what pings a felonies and which ones wash windows. > > Just trying to be helpful to someone that might not know that 14 line sigs > are about as bad as > vcards. 'dats all. The sig may have some purpose within creighton.edu, but > means absolutely > zilch to folks on a mailing list. Especially when your contribution consists > of a one-liner. > > As for quoted material, hah. > > HTH. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Sheldon" <lsheldon(a)creighton.edu> > To: "Tim Yocum" <tim(a)yocum.org> > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 8:57 PM > Subject: Re: Port scanning legal > > > > The message that I actually replied to was several hundred lines of HTML > code. > > > > And I submit that the sig, all but 3 lines of which have a specific > purpose, > > did not waste the bandwidth committed to the drivel about what some > redneck > > judge did. > > > > Oh, and how much of the quoted material was useful--the 14 line sig? > > > > > > > > not nearly as much as your 14-line mega.sig has. good god man, trim that > > > down to, er, four lines. =) > > > > > > kthnx. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Larry Sheldon" <lsheldon(a)creighton.edu> > > > To: <nanog(a)merit.edu> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 8:32 PM > > > Subject: RE: Port scanning legal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Y'all have gotten tedious. > > > > -- > > > > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > > > > . > . > > > > - L. F. (Larry) Sheldon, > - > > > > . Unix Systems and Network Administration > . > > > > - Creighton University Computer Center-Old > - > > > > . 2500 California Plaza > . > > > > - Omaha, Nebraska, U.S.A. 68178 Two identifying > haracteristics - > > > > . lsheldon(a)creighton.edu of System Administrators: > . > > > > - 402 280-2254 (work) Infallibility, and the ability > o - > > > > . 402 681-4726 (cellular) learn from their mistakes. > . > > > > - 402 332-4622 > - > > > > . http://www.creighton.edu/~lsheldon Adapted from Stephen Pinker > . > > > > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > > . . > > - L. F. (Larry) Sheldon, Jr. - > > . Unix Systems and Network Administration . > > - Creighton University Computer Center-Old Gym - > > . 2500 California Plaza . > > - Omaha, Nebraska, U.S.A. 68178 Two identifying characteristics - > > . lsheldon(a)creighton.edu of System Administrators: . > > - 402 280-2254 (work) Infallibility, and the ability to - > > . 402 681-4726 (cellular) learn from their mistakes. . > > - 402 332-4622 (residence) - > > . http://www.creighton.edu/~lsheldon Adapted from Stephen Pinker . > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > > > > -- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- . . - L. F. (Larry) Sheldon, Jr. - . Unix Systems and Network Administration . - Creighton University Computer Center-Old Gym - . 2500 California Plaza . - Omaha, Nebraska, U.S.A. 68178 Two identifying characteristics - . lsheldon(a)creighton.edu of System Administrators: . - 402 280-2254 (work) Infallibility, and the ability to - . 402 681-4726 (cellular) learn from their mistakes. . - 402 332-4622 (residence) - . http://www.creighton.edu/~lsheldon Adapted from Stephen Pinker . -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

2 1

RE: Port scanning legal
by Mathew Butler 20 Dec '00

20 Dec '00

Great, so you're suggesting punishing good locksmiths or windowmen. -Mat Butler -----Original Message----- From: Christian Kuhtz [mailto:ck@arch.bellsouth.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 4:35 PM To: mdevney(a)teamsphere.com Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Port scanning legal On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:26:33PM -0800, mdevney(a)teamsphere.com wrote: > I do not understand why people get so uppity about a scan. Let's be real > here, a simple portscan is about equivalent to walking along a sidewalk > and checking out the houses for open windows and doors. And about as > harmful. > > What is harmful is what sometimes comes after that. (Not always; not > usually; not even half the time I'd bet.) But the only damage a portscan > does is a few packets over your network and maybe 4M of logs (depending on > how you're logging). When writing and enforcing laws, it's important to > punish what's harmful, not what may be harmful. Or else looking at houses > as you walk down the street may be illegal. I do think there is a difference between looking at houses and windows from the street and walking up to them and rattling the door and windows to see if it they are locked or determining what model lock, door or window is used etc.

5 4

Re: Port scanning legal
by Larry Sheldon 20 Dec '00

20 Dec '00

> And why do you have to reply personal mails back to the list? Why do you keep asking stupid questions? > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:53:18PM -0600, Larry Sheldon wrote: > > > > Apparently not. > > -- > Christian Kuhtz <ck(a)arch.bellsouth.net> -wk, <ck(a)gnu.org> -hm > Sr. Architect, Engineering & Architecture, BellSouth.net, Atlanta, GA, U.S. > "I speak for myself only."" > > -- > -- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- . . - L. F. (Larry) Sheldon, Jr. - . Unix Systems and Network Administration . - Creighton University Computer Center-Old Gym - . 2500 California Plaza . - Omaha, Nebraska, U.S.A. 68178 Two identifying characteristics - . lsheldon(a)creighton.edu of System Administrators: . - 402 280-2254 (work) Infallibility, and the ability to - . 402 681-4726 (cellular) learn from their mistakes. . - 402 332-4622 (residence) - . http://www.creighton.edu/~lsheldon Adapted from Stephen Pinker . -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

1 0

Re: Port scanning legal
by Larry Sheldon 20 Dec '00

20 Dec '00

Apparently not. > > > How about we cut this childish crap out. > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:45:47PM -0600, Larry Sheldon wrote: > > > > > > > > Could you get any longer with the .sig? > > > > Not without inserting wasteed space and bandwidth. > > > > Glad you found something important to talk about here. > > > > > > > > > > -a > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 08:32:40PM -0600, Larry Sheldon wrote: > > > > > > > > Y'all have gotten tedious. > > > > -- > > > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > > > > . . > > > > - L. F. (Larry) Sheldon, Jr. - > > > > . Unix Systems and Network Administration . > > > > - Creighton University Computer Center-Old Gym - > > > > . 2500 California Plaza . > > > > - Omaha, Nebraska, U.S.A. 68178 Two identifying characteristics - > > > > . lsheldon(a)creighton.edu of System Administrators: . > > > > - 402 280-2254 (work) Infallibility, and the ability to - > > > > . 402 681-4726 (cellular) learn from their mistakes. . > > > > - 402 332-4622 (residence) - > > > > . http://www.creighton.edu/~lsheldon Adapted from Stephen Pinker . > > > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > > > > > > > > > -- > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-..-L.F.(Larry)Sheldon,Jr.-.UnixSystemsandNetworkAdministration.-CreightonUniversityComputerCenter-OldGym-.2500CaliforniaPlaza.-Omaha,Nebraska,U.S.A.68178Twoidentifyingcharacteristics-.lsheldon@creighton.eduofSystemAdministrators:.-402280-2254(work)Infallibility,andtheabilityto-.402681-4726(cellular)learnfromtheirmistakes..-402332-4622(residence)-.http://www.creighton.edu/~lsheldonAdaptedfromStephenPinker.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > > > > > > -- > Christian Kuhtz <ck(a)arch.bellsouth.net> -wk, <ck(a)gnu.org> -hm > Sr. Architect, Engineering & Architecture, BellSouth.net, Atlanta, GA, U.S. > "I speak for myself only."" > -- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- . . - L. F. (Larry) Sheldon, Jr. - . Unix Systems and Network Administration . - Creighton University Computer Center-Old Gym - . 2500 California Plaza . - Omaha, Nebraska, U.S.A. 68178 Two identifying characteristics - . lsheldon(a)creighton.edu of System Administrators: . - 402 280-2254 (work) Infallibility, and the ability to - . 402 681-4726 (cellular) learn from their mistakes. . - 402 332-4622 (residence) - . http://www.creighton.edu/~lsheldon Adapted from Stephen Pinker . -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

1 0

Re: Port scanning legal
by Larry Sheldon 19 Dec '00

19 Dec '00

> > Could you get any longer with the .sig? Not without inserting wasteed space and bandwidth. Glad you found something important to talk about here. > > -a > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 08:32:40PM -0600, Larry Sheldon wrote: > > > > Y'all have gotten tedious. > > -- > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > > . . > > - L. F. (Larry) Sheldon, Jr. - > > . Unix Systems and Network Administration . > > - Creighton University Computer Center-Old Gym - > > . 2500 California Plaza . > > - Omaha, Nebraska, U.S.A. 68178 Two identifying characteristics - > > . lsheldon(a)creighton.edu of System Administrators: . > > - 402 280-2254 (work) Infallibility, and the ability to - > > . 402 681-4726 (cellular) learn from their mistakes. . > > - 402 332-4622 (residence) - > > . http://www.creighton.edu/~lsheldon Adapted from Stephen Pinker . > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > -- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-..-L.F.(Larry)Sheldon,Jr.-.UnixSystemsandNetworkAdministration.-CreightonUniversityComputerCenter-OldGym-.2500CaliforniaPlaza.-Omaha,Nebraska,U.S.A.68178Twoidentifyingcharacteristics-.lsheldon@creighton.eduofSystemAdministrators:.-402280-2254(work)Infallibility,andtheabilityto-.402681-4726(cellular)learnfromtheirmistakes..-402332-4622(residence)-.http://www.creighton.edu/~lsheldonAdaptedfromStephenPinker.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

1 0