November 1996 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Re: spamspamspam (fwd)
by dgaudet＠plebe.com 09 Nov '96

09 Nov '96

In article <hot.mailing-lists.nanog-v02140b00aeaab407998a(a)[207.135.64.133]>, Chris Russo <crusso(a)alink.net> wrote: >Sure, if the Spam-Hating software is buggy, then it will generate >unnecessary garbage. If it works, however, the only fear you'll have is if >your users are spamming. That should be taken care of by dealing with the >spammer(s), rather than by taking the ostrich approach. In the past I was targetted by an anti-spam attack against "eros net" (I forget their real domain) because I'm listed in one of the nameserver records for EROS.COM which is not at all related to "eros net". I suppose this sort of human screw up may not happen depending on how the tool is written. In any event, sometimes people who receive email they asked for (i.e. entering their email address on a web form which explicitly said they would be receiving said mail) initiate anti-spam attacks because they forgot they asked for the mail. Dean

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Re: spamspamspam (fwd)
by crusso＠alink.net 09 Nov '96

09 Nov '96

>And yet again the usefulness of whois contacts is eroded. I don't know >about the rest of you, but I'm beginning to indirect all my whois >information through idiot filters -- indirect email addresses, alternate >phone numbers. I don't even run anything large. Sure, if the Spam-Hating software is buggy, then it will generate unnecessary garbage. If it works, however, the only fear you'll have is if your users are spamming. That should be taken care of by dealing with the spammer(s), rather than by taking the ostrich approach. Chris Russo ------------------------------------------------------------------ A-Link Network Services (408) 720-6161 http://www.alink.net This space for rent. ------------------------------------------------------------------

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Canadian ISP Code of Conduct
by Paul Ferguson 09 Nov '96

09 Nov '96

Noticed a press release this morning which stated the CAIP (Canadian Association of Internet Providers) had defined a 'voluntary' code of conduct for Canadian ISP's. FYI. http://www.caip.ca/caipcode.htm - paul

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Re: Why doesn't BGP...
by dgaudet＠plebe.com 09 Nov '96

09 Nov '96

In article <hot.mailing-lists.nanog-Pine.ULT.3.95.961109093416.14900C-100000(a)halcyon.halcyon.com>, Ed Morin <edm(a)halcyon.com> wrote: >On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Neil J. McRae wrote: > >> Try reading the manual. How is the router supposed to know what > >Well, until _somebody_ writes the definitive "Nutshell" book we >all know just how useful the "FM" is to "RT". I personally have found the information on the website/cdrom to be very complete. The case studies proved invaluable while I was learning various things. The BGP case study is incredible -- if you read it after reading a theoretical text on BGP then you'll be set for configuring networks with a small number of borders. There's a draft somewhere too that talks about common bgp configurations. Granted it probably takes several hours of using the manuals before you get a feel for how they're laid out and where to go for things. That layout changes between 11.0 and 11.1 which can be annoying. But it's very complete. I've only ever dealt with ip, atalk and bridging however, maybe the experience in the other protocols is different. Do you honestly believe that a book with "nutshell" in the title is going to be more definitive than the CDROM documentation? It would weight twenty pounds. And also on this nutshell thread -- I think that people may be wishing for "IOS IP configuration in a nutshell". There's no way a single book could do justice to all the protocols IOS deals with. Dean

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Re: Why doesn't BGP...
by Vadim Antonov 09 Nov '96

09 Nov '96

Avi Freedman <freedman(a)netaxs.com> wrote: >Anyway, sorry to be snide - any suggestions you have about algorithms >for exchanging routing data between (or inside of) providers that also >takes into account link size and perhaps hop-count, as opposed to >just AS-PATH, are welcome at the next IETF meeting. The problem with physical metrics is that they're pretty much useless in the real world, where network administrators often want to have traffic to go along suboptimal ways to balance the load. Obviously, any "automagic" load-sensitive system must have a global knowledge, and long-term statistics on traffic patterns to be able to simulate the behaviour of "gut feeling" of the engineers. Regarding BGP metrics -- there's a problem with a single "universal" metric in an exterior routing protocol, namely the absense of a single authority to assign those metrics. Different networks may have very much confiliciting interests in how to assign BGP metrics. Some time ago i wrote a draft (which didn't get any support and quietly expired) regarding BGP metrics -- the idea was to have a vector of metrics (one per AS hop) instead of a single scalar metric; and allow network operators to calculate weighted sums to obtain the locally significant scalar metrics. I.e. a network operator may decide for himself how to interpret BGP metrics coming from different AS-es (or by different paths). The draft also describes a mechanism for scaling IGP metrics to generate BGP metrics (thus replacing MEDs with a generic mechanism). It also allows "fudging" the weighted sum with an exit-specific constant, thus superceding local prefs. In other words, the proposed metric system is generic enough to make MEDs, LOCAL_PREFs, and many cases of use of communities, a mere particular cases; so they can be obsoleted. The default metric for an AS-hop is 1.0, and the default weight vector is all-ones, so the default behaviour is identical to that of the current BGP. If there's any interest i can dig the draft out and place it on my www server. --vadim

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CIX routing service (was Re: AGIS/DIGEX)
by Eric Ziegast 08 Nov '96

08 Nov '96

> > > [...] Since Digex is at too few NAPs to peer with AGIS, and they > > > are not at the CIX, we see no routes from them. > > CIX is taking new connections, either T1, PB-SMDS, or DEC-PAIX (FDDI or > Ether). Just a side thought about CIX's role in the Internet... With peering requirements becoming too strict for new players, I see two alternatives for getting good peering connectivity: - RA servers - semi-reliable registration-based database for routing updates - lacks media sensing - CIX - on-the-fly trust-the-providers routing updates - media sensing through BGP peering sessions - router could overload CIX started up long ago to "create a level playing field" (commercial providers vs. ANS/NSFNET/AUP). When everyone willingly peered with everyone else at MAE's and NAPs, CIX was becoming a moot point (why use CIX over a slow link when I can go direct via DS3/Router/Giga/- Router/DS3?). Now that the playing field isn't level anymore (big fish refusing to peer with little fish), perhaps CIX has a new use - simple peering at major exchange points. Instead of having people all try to peer with each other, a lengthy process and complex to manage), why not have CIX put a router in any exchange point and say, "Here CIX members, peer with this router and you'll get routing to every other CIX member at the exchange point." The "big ISPs" will still peer with each other directly, even privately, but they have enough traffic in between them to make it worthwhile. New or small ISPs would be the primary benefactors. So you ask, "What about RA?" I have nothing against it. For new providers, it's an excellent solution that gets them off the ground peering. I suspect though that some providers just don't like the fact that the routing is decoupled from the L2 switching making exchange point connectivity outages hard to detect/correct quickly. Some would say that CIX gets saturated. Yes, CIX-West was at one time fatally saturated on incoming bit pipes (not necessarily CIX's fault), but saturation can be reduced or eliminated by: - having multiple CIX routers - one set at every major exchange point (no, there's no bacbone in between). - rate-limiting peers to a maximum of XX Mbps (ATM, yes; possible on GigaSwitchs or FDDIs?). - detecting then encouraging peers with more than X Mbps of traffic (on average) to offload traffic to direct peering or other exchange points. - Using multiple iBGP routers at an exchange point. Then again, it doesn't have to be CIX; it just seems natural since they've been running CIX-West for oh-so-long. A bunch of smart BGP people can go out, get some money, buy the equipment, install it, and have ISPs pay them for the service. Would such a peering entity compete with ISPs? I don't think so. Routing at a peering point isn't their business - transiting customers to "the Internet" reliably and quickly is. ISPs would be the customers of the "enhanced peering service". I don't think this is really a new idea, nor really my concern, but I see two of my service providers struggling to get new peering and think, "There's got to be a better way." ... just something to think about. -- Eric Ziegast Looking in from the edge

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Re: Cisco for dummies?
by Paul J. Zawada 08 Nov '96

08 Nov '96

Actually, to cover everything the various flavors of IOS does, you would probably need different nutshell books targeted at different audiences, perhaps one for each flavor of IOS. (Enterprise, IBM, Desktop, ISP...) I don't think too many people on this list would care about the SNA $%#^ that Cisco-Blue does. --zawada At 05:33 PM 11/8/96 -0500, Deepak Jain wrote: > >Actually the Nutshell books are great. "Cisco IOS in a Nutshell" I can go >for that. Aren't they the ones that also do *the* Sendmail book? > Paul J. Zawada, RCDD | Senior Network Engineer zawada(a)ncsa.uiuc.edu | National Center for Supercomputing Applications +1 217 244 4728 | http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/zawada

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Re: Cisco for Dummies
by Lon R. Stockton, Jr. 08 Nov '96

08 Nov '96

I just had a brief email exchange with Tim O'Reilly regarding a Nutshell series book for Cisco IOS. He says they'd love to do such a book; the only missing piece was finding someone to write it. I was told that if I knew of anyone who'd be interested in writing such a book, to direct them to http://www.ora.com/oreilly/author/intro.html So there ya go....

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Re: Cisco for dummies?
by Michael Vallee 08 Nov '96

08 Nov '96

This is actually a very good idea. Someone should talk to Tim O'Rielly at ORA.COM about this. They are the "Nutshell Book" folks, and do a great job on other books in this area. We need to recommend an author. Any volunteers? Mike Vallee Vaultline Inc. mike(a)vaultline.net 408 364 9056 > > (Assuming this hasn't already been done and I am the one that is uninformed) > > Has anyone though of how much money some publisher could make with a > Cisco for Dummies<tm> book? Say it runs $49.95 and is 2000 pages. It has > every obscure use of every command in say the IP IOS or Netflow Switching > or everything Cisco makes [depending on size here] It strikes me that > the UniversCD and the bound/hard copy manuals [including the ones from > the classes] are not all that useful unless you remember the approximate > syntax of the command or that it has been expanded in the next version of > IOS. > > Lots of companies make books solely elaborating on the references > provided by the manufacturer [ala Osborne on Borland and such]. > > It boggles my mind to figure how many they would probably sell [one for > every customer router?] > > Then again, I guess Cisco would sell it at they standard rates. $1095 for > the 3 volume set on CD. > > WARNING: There is some sarcasm in this message. > > -Deepak. >

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Re: Cisco for dummies?
by Tine Hutchison 08 Nov '96

08 Nov '96

: Cisco has some things like that already, in the training guides : for their Introduction to Cisco Router Configuration (ICRC) and Advanced : Cisco Router Configuration (ACRC) courses, and IIRC all the text is also : on their web site someplace. : Truth is, it's not all that useful without the commentary and : experience of the instructor, especially since the course gets into all : kinds of weird stuff (wanna bridge xns through a tunnel over tcp/ip?), and : barely touches on the type of BGP stuff talked about on this list. Even then, unless you get an instructor who really knows a lot about BGP, there's not much value in the class (at least not ACRC.) Although I can now setup an Appletalk tunnel, the class didn't tell me anything more about anything that I'd ever touched before, or even peripherally investigated. Who needs 4 hours of access-list instruction???? About the most helpful thing I've found as far as learning advanced Cisco stuff is their Internetworking Case Studies. The guide for BGP is at http://www.cisco.com/univercd/data/doc/cintrnet/ics/icsbgp4.htm and I found it to be _extremely_ helpful. The main ICS page is at http://www.cisco.com/univercd/data/doc/cintrnet/ics.htm : However, there're a lot of good examples & FAQs and such on : Cisco's web page if you search around long enough. : : This is not to say that I don't think such a book would be useful, : but I'd really, REALLY hate to see "Cisco for Dummies" 'cause it doesn't : take much for an unclueful person with a Cisco in the right place to : really screw things up for the rest of us. Maybe they'll modify the title to "Cisco for notsomuch-dummies"? Tine Hutchison Network Engineer Interaccess Co. tine(a)interaccess.com 312/496-4653

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