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Other flapping prefixes. Compare and contrast.
by Sean Doran 12 Sep '95

12 Sep '95

There were several other providers who got notes from me about prefixes that were flapping every several seconds or thereabouts. The tally so far: Polite "we have a ticket open and will get someone to fix things" from three providers (thanks ANS, BBN, EBONE). A trio of no-answer-yets, one of which has since been fixed, one of which will be fixed since I have the advantage of sharing a room with the routing guru of the NSP in question and the bigger advantage of not needing nearly as much sleep. :-) The third no-answer-yet is from a smaller provider in Europe, and I expect they'll get back to me in their morning. Finally, there was the previous reply. Sean. P.S.: Oh, I also have to thank Pushpendra Mohta of CERFNET who replied to an earlier note personally with an explanation of what was going on.

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Re: nisc-03292 (ticket update) badly flapping prefix (204.4.27/24)
by Sean Doran 12 Sep '95

12 Sep '95

Hi Cole - Wish you were here at the NANOG conference. Thanks for the update on the information, and a clarification of your policy. Please don't be too hard on your operator for treading on a landmine; we all know what it's like being on the front lines and making a mistake. Also thanks for the good news that all your new dialup customers from here on will be aggregated into shorter prefixes; this is nice to see! Sean.

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nisc-03292 (ticket update) badly flapping prefix (204.4.27/24)
by PSI NISC 11 Sep '95

11 Sep '95

Ticket #nisc-03292 09/11/95-17:55:14 libby SUBJECT: badly flapping prefix (204.4.27/24) Posted by: Cole G. Libby ---------- Sean, Allow me to correct the too quick response you received from one of my people this weekend. We agree that this network is flapping far too many times and that this is a bad thing. Clearly the customer cannot be getting much useful service here either. We are contacting the customer to assist with his configuration and reduce the number of route flaps. This is something that we do periodically with all our dialup customers to ensure that they are getting good service and are being good 1 neighbors. This is not the only network in this circumstance that we are addressing. This network is not in a PSI CIDR block and is therefore portable and not a candidate for aggregation. Additionally, this network is used with a legacy account that was purchased at a time when this was permitted. In January, we have stopped allowing new dialup customers to use networks that are not in PSINet CIDR blocks. Since these blocks are indeed aggregated this has the effect you desire. Thanks Cole Libby Manager, PSI Customer Support >Sean, > The customer that this network belongs to is a dial-up customer, and >as such, when his connection is up, we broadcast his network IP, and stop >broadcasting when he disables his connection. We are unable to prevent his >route from propagating in the face of what could be frequent log-in/log-outs. > >Aaron Silver >PSI Customer Support > > >Ticket #nisc-03292 09/10/95-17:50:04 silvera SUBJECT: badly flapping prefix (204.4.27/24) >Posted by: Sean Doran <smd(a)icp.net> >---------- > >Hi - > > Could you please look into this badly flapping prefix with >a view to stopping it from oscillating this wildly? > > Thanks! > > Sean. >- -- >SL-CHI-12> sh ip bgp 204.4.27.0 >BGP routing table entry for 204.4.27.0 255.255.255.0, version 656911 >Paths: (2 available, no best path) > 1239 174 (history entry) > 144.228.101.1 (metric 15) from 144.228.50.6 (144.228.56.1) > Origin IGP, metric 1, localpref 90, external > Dampinfo: penalty 2867, flapped 171 times in 20:14:19 > 1239 174 (history entry) > 144.228.101.1 (metric 15) from 144.228.50.3 (144.228.53.1) > Origin IGP, metric 1, localpref 90, external > Dampinfo: penalty 2862, flapped 170 times in 20:13:55 >

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Re: Other flapping prefixes. Compare and contrast.
by lear＠yeager.corp.sgi.com 11 Sep '95

11 Sep '95

The note that was forwarded was simply unbelievable at this day and age. The Internet community has to pay a large price when a major provider has a policy of not aggregating routes and also not using statics for sole dialup customers. Such behavior should be made readily apparent to perspective customers, resellers, and referrals so that they might understand the technical capabilities and marketing tactics of a given provider. Sean is fighting the good fight to get people to do the right thing. That he does so with gorilla tactics at times is probably appropriate given in some cases the lack of response and in other cases completely inappropriate response from various providers and customers. As his customer I *very* much appreciate and encourage his efforts. -- Eliot Lear [lear(a)sgi.com]

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Re: Other flapping prefixes. Compare and contrast.
by hwb＠upeksa.sdsc.edu 11 Sep '95

11 Sep '95

Well, while Sean's wording at times is, ahem, suboptimal, he is referring to a real problem in the Internet System, and in fact one that the North American Network Operators Group should take responsibility for, at least for the North American part. The problem is what others believe is a strength: an anarchic system of many autonomous service providers with little or no service model/metrics (neither for the local nor for the system level), and no well defined rules of conduct for interoperation and problem resolution. A few weeks back I had problems with getting to another CONUS site. Not exactly capillary connectivity, source was at SDSC, destination at FIX-West. My service provider is CERFnet. Some days after emailing about the problem (it happened on a Friday evening that I had very intermittent connectivity, with packets from my traceroute getting lost in Sprintlink land) I got actually quite polite and professional responses that, based on my traceroute, it was outside of CERFnet's domain and best they can do is inform Sprint. As I network engineer I understand the context and the issues. As a network user I do not find the service model acceptable. I thought my service provider was selling me Internet connectivity, not regional connectivity. This is not to single out CERFnet or Sprint, given the way The System is run, the service providers likely are all the same, at least above the 90th percentile. Certainly because there is no global (or even domestic) problem resolution procedure that has any leverage with other service providers. Eventually something hits the roof for someone, and he starts bitching more publicly as his only remaining leverage, which is what seemed happening to Sean. What choice did he have? Run to the government and ask for regulation, as the service providers just can't get their act together at a systemic level? Well, that may not be one of *his* first choices, but sooner or later Real Users (rather than us networking bigots) get pissed. You know, those you sell services to? That you give, say, T1 connectivity to without being clear what it means to a user, who's traffic may have to traverse five ISPs? And who may not be interested in hearing about finger pointing from the service provider or deferred problem resolution? I mean, what would you say if your electrical power would drop to 80 Volts (more than once in a year) and your local power company would tell you "uh, that's not our fault, it is just power company 2000 miles away ran out of oil, or misplaced some nuclear refuelment rod?" This all should be critical to the NANOG agenda if the service providers would want to continue to provide quality services. I think it is an attitude problem of people largely caring about their own swamp.

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skey @ Nanog
by Steven J. Richardson 11 Sep '95

11 Sep '95

FYI: I have an IRIX binary of "key" on ctc21 in /usr/people/nanog/bin. Steve Richardson/Merit

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Re: Other flapping prefixes. Compare and contrast.
by owen＠DeLong.SJ.CA.US 11 Sep '95

11 Sep '95

I disagree with your position completely Mike. None of what is below is what I would consider "bashing". Instead, it is a straightforward and honest display of what is breaking large parts of the Internet with a request that it be solved. I consider it highly constructive. It is absolutely ridiculous that there are providers that still flap routes, especially one the size of PSI, for dialup customers. Owen > Can we stop this bashing right here, Sean? I don't believe that this list > is the adequate forum four such childish behaviour. I have a collection > of your past emails and I am rather fed up withthis. > > Can Sean be removed from the list? These are not contributions in any > sense of constructivity at all. > > Sprint can very well chose a different person to make their corporate > views known on an nanog scale.Mike > > > > Mike > > > On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Sean Doran wrote: > > > > > There were several other providers who got notes from > > me about prefixes that were flapping every several seconds > > or thereabouts. The tally so far: > > > > Polite "we have a ticket open and will get someone to fix > > things" from three providers (thanks ANS, BBN, EBONE). > > > > A trio of no-answer-yets, one of which has since been > > fixed, one of which will be fixed since I have the > > advantage of sharing a room with the routing guru > > of the NSP in question and the bigger advantage of > > not needing nearly as much sleep. :-) > > > > The third no-answer-yet is from a smaller provider in > > Europe, and I expect they'll get back to me in their morning. > > > > Finally, there was the previous reply. > > > > Sean. > > > > P.S.: Oh, I also have to thank Pushpendra Mohta of CERFNET > > who replied to an earlier note personally with an > > explanation of what was going on. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael F. Nittmann mn(a)ios.com > Senior Network Architect ------------ > IDT/IOS - Internet Online Services ---------- > 294 State Street -------- > Hackensack, NJ 07601 ------ > ---- > +1 (201) 928 1000 xt. 500 -- > +1 (201) 928 1057 FAX +1 (201) 441 5861 Pager \/ > >

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Flapping prefixes and dialup networks. Discuss.
by Sean Doran 11 Sep '95

11 Sep '95

Hi. I sent a network provider (who shall remain protected by a pseudonym like "AS 174") a brief note stating that they had a prefix that was flapping rather heavily throughout the day. I cut and pasted a show ip bgp on the route, pointing out that the prefix flaps on the order of once a minute and was happily being dampened. (cf. my comments Monday afternoon on dampening). BGP routing table entry for 204.4.27.0 255.255.255.0, version 656911 Paths: (2 available, no best path) 1239 174 (history entry) 144.228.101.1 (metric 15) from 144.228.50.6 (144.228.56.1) Origin IGP, metric 1, localpref 90, external Dampinfo: penalty 2915, flapped 199 times in 3:27:31 1239 174 (history entry) 144.228.101.1 (metric 15) from 144.228.50.3 (144.228.53.1) Origin IGP, metric 1, localpref 90, external Dampinfo: penalty 2917, flapped 198 times in 3:27:07 I also asked this nameless service provider to kindly check into this somewhat excessive amount of flap with a view to seeing how it could be made to flap less. Here was the reply. Hopefully saner and more patient folks than me might point out to service provider X that announcing to the entire world when a dialup user comes and goes is not healthy for the Internet, and it shouldn't happen, particularly not at this rate. Why I am not quite in the, "it doesn't matter, they'll be dampened" frame of mind will get explained during the NANOG session. Sean. - -- >From nisc(a)psi.com Sun Sep 10 18:12:58 1995 From: PSI NISC <nisc(a)psi.com> To: Sean Doran <smd(a)icp.net> Subject: nisc-03292 (ticket update) badly flapping prefix (204.4.27/24) Ticket #nisc-03292 09/10/95-18:12:08 silvera SUBJECT: badly flapping prefix (204.4.27/24) Posted by: Aaron Silver ---------- Sean, The customer that this network belongs to is a dial-up customer, and as such, when his connection is up, we broadcast his network IP, and stop broadcasting when he disables his connection. We are unable to prevent his route from propagating in the face of what could be frequent log-in/log-outs. Aaron Silver PSI Customer Support

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one more
by Sean Doran 11 Sep '95

11 Sep '95

Oh, and thanks to Joe Charbonneau <jose(a)net99.net> who has also sent a note pointing out that a flapping prefix from them has been fixed. Sean.

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May 1995 note update
by sob＠academ.com 11 Sep '95

11 Sep '95

Well, I didn't get it all done before the meeting today. Sigh. I will continue to get it done this week. -- Stan | Academ Consulting Services |internet: sob(a)academ.com Olan | For more info on academ, see this |uucp: amdahl!academ!sob Barber | URL- http://www.academ.com/academ |Opinions expressed are only mine.

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