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RE: The DSL business model
by Roeland Meyer 16 May '01

16 May '01

> From: Steve Sobol [mailto:sjsobol@NorthShoreTechnologies.net] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 2:18 PM > > [I don't know that I agree that this is off-topic...] I'm with you here. > Steve Schaefer wrote: > > > 1) ISP's who deploy DSL are on a very slim margin. They > can't afford to > > be "full service." That doesn't mean that the best DSL ISP's don't > > provide better service than the mediocre or poor DS-1 > ISP's, but don't > > expect $500/month support for your $150/month line. I disagree with this characterization. Quite a few of those businesses would gladly pay a few shekels more, for a decent SLA and some service. The problem is in how you stratify the market. There are also market aggregation issues (crossed with excessive greed). > > 2) Data CLEC's who provide most of the lines for > independent ISP's have a > > challenging business model. Northpoint went down hard. > That doesn't mean > > that the others will go down hard, too, but they have the > same kind of > > risks. They needed lots of capital and got most of it through debt > > financing. Debt financing is okay, as long as you don't overstate your sales projections. Homes/business' passed isn't [the same as] homes/business' online. Getting them online is the actual gross revenue (minus delinquencies) and you have to have your payment terms fall under some reasonable percentage of that. What many of them did was ass-u-me a larger percentage of plant utilization (ie x plant generates y sales, over z months). The sales didn't ramp up, or the delinquency rate went out of sight, and predictable results followed. It's no different with public offerings. Not making your dividend payments is about the equivalent of not making your loan payments. It's all credit. > Well, wasn't the big problem that the DLECs were having > trouble turning > around orders, and as a result ended up not getting paid by the ISPs? Maybe. Looking at the Covad v. DSLnetworks case, Covad let DSLnetworks get about 18 months in arrears. It certainly smells like bad management of receiveables. How many of you guys would let arrearages age more than 90 days, regardless of the reason. At worst, you convert it to a prommisory note, or some other debt instrument, with re-payment terms spelled out in their BoD's blood. > > 3) ILEC's don't have a clue. Some of them are well-intentioned > to say about both Verizon and Ameritech. Ameritech was > fair-to-middling > until being bought by SBC, and they rolled downhill rapidly Having witnessed SBC takover of PacBell, from the inside (PacBell ACN/CBS), it was most amusing to watch San Ramone meeting San Antone. I absolutely knew that the HFC system was going to get cut, at the minimum. SBC track-record isn't real good and they're not all that nice to work for. > Here in Cleveland, Ameritech offers only ADSL. I am not sure they even > know what SDSL is. :) They will, however, be happy to sell > you 1.5x256 ADSL for $175 a month! PacBell does NOT offer SDSL, which is pretty much a requirement for most business usage. ADSL is only good as a [barely] competitive offering against residential cable. BTW, other than DSLnetworks failure, my DSL line has been rock solid for over 2 years. Every problem I've had was an upstream failure. You can't fault xDSL technology, only the business' behind it. The technology that can be faulted, and I sincerely apologize for not being clear enough on this, is that which prevents adequate redundancy at the end-nodes. The fact that 100,000 businesses can get lopped off by a single provider business failure is pretty sad. I've tried, for over a year, to get redundant uplinks to an alternate provider (ISDN backup to xDSL). CIDR, prefix filtering, and cluelessness nail that effort every time. It doesn't seem to matter that I am more than willing to pay for it. It simply isn't available. But, it should be (I don't mean tinker-toy methods either). Before CIDR, it was. The past few quarters has shown how necessary it is. Guys, this is a huge market gap, why isn't anyone filling it? -- ROELAND M.J. MEYER Managing Director Morgan Hill Software Company, Inc. TEL: +001 925 373 3954 FAX: +001 925 373 9781 http://www.mhsc.com mailto: rmeyer(a)mhsc.com

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RE: 2 Wire T1 - HDLC
by Martin, Christian 16 May '01

16 May '01

John, I believe you are referring to HDSL2, which can and does run over single-pair but uses advanced spectral shaping and error correcting mechanisms that weren't invented when HDSL was dreamed up by Bellcore. ./chris > -----Original Message----- > From: John A. Tamplin [mailto:jat@liveonthenet.com] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 7:13 PM > To: Hunter Pine > Cc: mike harrison; nanog(a)nanog.org > Subject: Re: 2 Wire T1 - HDLC > > > > On Mon, 14 May 2001, Hunter Pine wrote: > > > That was my mistake Mike. HDSL is NOT two SDSL lines by > definition. It's > > just two circuits running symmetric 768k DSL (not SDSL) > bonded to form a > > single1.5mb line. > > Umm, no. HDSL rides a single pair, and provides more than 1.5Mb. > > John A. Tamplin jat(a)jaet.org > 770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave > 770/431-9459 FAX Smyrna, GA 30082-3723 > >

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Instant chats and central servers
by Sean Donelan 16 May '01

16 May '01

A question (and a test to see if I'm still subscribed) The various instant messenging services, such as AIM, ICQ, Microsoft, Yahoo, other Messenger uses a central server to manage "presence". No central server appears to mean no instant messages, am I correct? What does this have to do with NANOG, apparently it is becoming more common for backbone NOC folks to communicate with their friends in other NOCs via one of these instant chat programs. I didn't realize how common it was until I was informed about it last month when AOL/AIM had difficulties. This month Yahoo Messenger had power difficulties, which disrupted their central servers. If folks are using this these services for real-time communications, should we be trying to improve their reliability? Or is this just a "feature" of how presence services work.

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heads up on 80/8 [actually operational, so don't read this!!!]
by smd＠clock.org 16 May '01

16 May '01

Hello, long time no see - RIPE is now allocating subnets of 80/8 to end users. In order to avoid the ugliness of various people announcing 80/8 without guaranateeing transit to all the subnets, if you are filtering subnets of this /8, please relax your filters to allow /20s and shorter, On behalf of random Europeans, Sean. (yeah, ok, this is at least partially work-related-stuff...)

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corrigendum - 80/7 not 80/8 - smd-is-blind
by smd＠clock.org 16 May '01

16 May '01

I was reminded by a colleague: | 80/7 to be correct even :) | | see http://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail-archives/routing-wg/current/msg00006.html | for copy of RIPE's announcement email wrt this. This is why we get professionals to do LIR stuff. :-) Sean. PS - LIR = RIPE terminology (local internet registry), and roughly means an ISP who allocates address space to others

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Re: heads up on 80/8 [actually operational, so don't read this!!!]
by smd＠clock.org 16 May '01

16 May '01

I wrote: > IRRs (RIPE, ARIN, APNIC) of course I meant RIR (regional internet registry) and not IRR (internet routing registry), however one might say that they have similar operational consequence. Sean.

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RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
by Roeland Meyer 15 May '01

15 May '01

> From: Adam McKenna [mailto:adam@flounder.net] > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 10:06 PM > > Oracle (try and build a DB without reverse working right. > Net8 stops you > > dead in your tracks). > > Sorry, but this is just 100% wrong. I've set up Oracle on > many boxes and you > don't need any DNS at all to set up an oracle DB. In fact, I > tell our DBA's > to use IP addresses in their TNSNAMES.ORA files because I > don't want the DB > depending on DNS. Let's see, I don't want to make my DBs dependent on DNS, so I use IP addrs. Yet, I can't depend on IP addrs because my upstream might have to be changed... damn, I shouldn't have depended on my scumbag DSL upstream, eh? Gee, maybe I should have had a names based system after all? Either way, I wind up having to rebuild Oracle boxen and application servers, every time somebody farts. Just what in blue hell are we supposed to do? BTW, the last I checked SSL certs are usually names based. Pretty slack security, eh? This is right on up there with: 1) You idiot DSL monkey, you deserve your Inet death because you didn't multi-home. 2) No, you can't advertise less than a /20. 3) No, you don't deserve larger than a /32. 4) Yes, we know that makes multi-homing impossible for those that need it the most. 5) No, we don't care, you idiot DSL monkeys deserve Inet death. Yeah, the message you send out is real clear. ... and one wonders why the Internet has an implosion problem... -- Internet implosion at 10:00 ... special web report, at 11:00.

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RE: Whois -a?
by John Murphy 15 May '01

15 May '01

Straight from the MAN page Roeland (man whois)... ... DESCRIPTION Whois looks up records in the databases maintained by several Network In- formation Centers (NICs). The options are as follows: -a Use the American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) database. It contains network numbers used in those parts of the world cov- ered neither by APNIC nor by RIPE. Contact (handle) information should be looked up by appending "-ARIN" to the NIC handle: ... -----------------------Original Message----------------------- >From: Roeland Meyer >To: Vivien M.;nanog(a)nanog.org >Date: 5/15/01 5:16 AM >Subject: RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS > > >> From: Vivien M. [mailto:vivienm@dyndns.org] >> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 2:44 PM > >> As someone posted before (but you probably didn't read): > >Actually, I read it just fine. Yes, that is the block that is in use here. I >just don't know who the hell Alex Black is. I also asked SpeakEasy. Weeks >later, I'm still waiting for an answer. > >> vivienm@amethyst:~$ host www.mhsc.com >> www.mhsc.com is a nickname for vweb1.mhsc.com >> vweb1.mhsc.com has address 216.27.184.250 >> vivienm@amethyst:~$ whois -a 216.27.184.250 > >When did '-a' become a whois option? > >> Speakeasy Network (NETBLK-SPEAKEASY-4) SPEAKEASY-4 >> 216.27.128.0 - >> 216.27.191.255 >> Black, Alex (NETBLK-SPEK-RMEYER-0) SPEK-RMEYER-0 >> 216.27.184.224 - >> 216.27.184.255 > >> vivienm@amethyst:~$ whois -a \!NETBLK-SPEK-RMEYER-0 >> Black, Alex (NETBLK-SPEK-RMEYER-0) >> 440 Mission Court >> Fremont, CA 94539 >> US >> >> Netname: SPEK-RMEYER-0 >> Netblock: 216.27.184.224 - 216.27.184.255 >> >> Coordinator: >> Stollar, Andreas (AS3414-ARIN) abuse(a)speakeasy.net >> +1-206-728-9770 (FAX) (206)728-1500 > >> Now, I realize your name isn't Alex Black (unless you have multiple >> personalities), but it sure looks to me like SpeakEasy knows >> how to SWIP >> (and the SPEK-RMEYER-0 name suggests they were trying to SWIP >> it to you). > >Among other things, I'm also a SysAdmin. Of course, I have multiple >personalities! But, Alex Black isn't one of them. Also note, Andreas >Stoller's email addr. Do you actually think I would get any sort of response >if I sent an email there? I might as well send it to abuse(a)mhsc.net. He >probably uses the same bit-bucket that mhsc.net does (the /dev/null brand). > >

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ICG Status
by David McGaugh 15 May '01

15 May '01

Anyone have any idea what's going on with ICG these days? I sent an e-mail to noc(a)noc.icg.com regarding their peering and received a response from mindspring.com... -Dave

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Re: Whois -a?
by Richard A. Steenbergen 15 May '01

15 May '01

On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 03:47:01PM -0400, Steve Sobol wrote: > > Mathias Koerber wrote: > > > > > whois -a is most commonly seen on BSD systems, and is most definitely > > > > not available on every current UNIX. > > > > > > You can query any whois server with query@server > > > ie: 192.168.1.1(a)arin.net works. > > > > This too is dependent on your WHOIS client, and NOT available > > (by default) on all UNICES. > > fwhois uses whois@server, Whois Classic uses whois -h server Come on guys, what does this have to do with nanog. Please take the "how do I man whois" thread, the "we got screwed over by our incompetant dsl provider" thread, the "can someone help me find some bits in wisconsin" thread, and the "I can't figure out how noc@ or peering@ works" thread and CEASE AND DESIST while there is still SOME hope of content making this list worthy of reading. If you have a complaint about your DSL provider, TELL IT TO SOMEONE WHO CARES, or maybe (*gasp* here's a thought) vote with your wallet. Please, can we just STOP replying to these threads? I know 5 other people made this request when they first started, but perhaps they were too nice about it because it is still going on. When your nanog-reading experience consists of 95% D)elete something is wrong. -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras(a)e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)

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