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summary response ;-) Re: FW: Photos of Palestinians celebrating World Trade Center attack (off-nanog)
by Christian Kuhtz 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

A summary response, since I kept getting a pile of similiar email and my fingers are starting to whimp out on me ;-) Jerry Hill wrote: [..] > >>> Do you guys really believe these people really know what they're > >>> celebrating? > > I do think they know what they are celebrating. Do you think otherwise? > Why? See below for further response and explanation of my rationale where I quote Greg Barwis. > > All I asked is that you consider > > a slightly different point of view and try to look beyond > > the grief and pain as hard as it may be. Red haze isn't > > what gets us anywhere.. > > This is certainly not evident from your first message. You asked a > straight-forward, Well, I was asking a rhethoric question. Something that was intended to stimulate thought. I'm copying this back to the list to illustrate. The attached email is in response to Greg Mirsky <gmirsky(a)axiowave.com> asking me what I meant. There's more below the reply to Greg Mirsky. <snippetysnap> Mind you, none of this is an excuse or apology, it is simply the realization based on past experiences in my life. These people are born and raised in an environment nothing like ours. An environment where terror is a daily part of their life. Imagine your neighborhood grocery store, your neighbor's car, your kid's school, you wife's bus on its way to work, you place of work being blown up on a regular basis because you effectively life in a hot guerilla war zone. All media you're being fed is not free. It is strongly biased. There's no free access to "the truth" -- whatever that may be. Your school, government, religion, media tell you one view of the world. Your education is mediocre at best. Mind you this has been going on for decades if not centuries. How easy do you think it would be to skew your opinion? A very similiar thing happened in Eastern Germany. When the wall came down, it was quite obvious that even though the brunt of education, financial resources, access to information, free enterprise etc etc hit immediately and with tremendous force... it was estimated it would take 2-3 generations at an absolute minimum for the socialist propaganda, the social hatred, the lack of broad education to take hold and for people truely to become "normal" in the view of the western world. This brunt of "freedom" hasn't hit in the middle east. It is a very much closed society. Demagogues are common place and you hear exactly what you want to hear. Just like during the Cold War, the U.S. told its citizens that the USSR is truely and thoroughly evil, the USSR told its citizens that the U.S. is truely and thoroughly evil. Guess what, they both believed it and the abominations during the Cold War were caused by this total and utter distortion of reality. If you go through history, you'll find this over and over and over again. Does that make it any more right that these people are celebrating the death of another human being? No, but in a society where violent death is common place, where demagogues reign the view of the individual may border the surreal. So, in other words, these people have no clue what they're really celebrating, what it means to the rest of the world and what the true impact of their actions is. Nor do they have any idea that this stuff isn't normal in the rest of the world. So, do they have any level of understanding? Sure. Do I understand where they're coming from? Not likely. We need to think outside the box to solve this and cannot view everything just from our point of view. We need to understand the view of the people we're dealing with. Even if they appear like animals to you and me. So, we need to take this with a grain of salt. Just like we shouldn't call the people committing these atrocious attacks "madmen", "crazy", "stupid". They are none of those things. These were well planned, apparently well executed attacks and they knew full well what they did, why they did it and what impact it was going to have. It was well calculated and not accidental collateral damage. I think that unless we view things with differentiation, where there are shades of grey instead of black and white -- or where there isn't just good or evil -- and appropriately classify the threat, the event and the resolution.. we won't make a real difference in the world. I'm not saying you should feel sorry for these people. Please don't. But, we perhaps need to just register the fact that these people do and try to understand why so that we may begin to find ways to resolve this utterly terrifying situation where people feel compelled to attack thousands of people. Or, why do they view what we view as innocent people as guilty and vice versa. Unless we can reconcile this one way or another, this will not go away. Case and point, the U.S. does bear responsibility for what's happening in Afghanistan, in Iraq etc. Russia does as well. And the same can be said for many other places in the Middle East and the rest of the world. They were all battlegrounds of the Cold War, and we've been reaping the consequences ever since. And unless we recognize this, we won't solve this terrific challenge But, that's just my point of view." -- And Greg Barwis <gbarwis(a)ncaustin.com> replies (quoted, not entire response): " although I still feel that they know perfectly well in their own worldview what it is that they're celebrating. I don't think that _they_ think they're celebrating the deaths of thousands of innocents; I think _they_ think they're celebrating a terrible blow to the "great satan." Because of their radically different worldview, as you discuss, I believe they'recelebrating this in the more abstract sense..." And I'd like to add to that the following: I don't disagree at all that they know perfectly well what they're celebrating. Their view and ours is just very different. And we have to recognize this if we hope to have a chance in making any difference at all in this "all out war against terrorism" that various leaders around the world would appear to be insinuating. I'm not saying you personally need to understand each and every one of the, perhaps in your/our perspective, warped views. Just as their view of the world suffers varying degrees of distortion, some quite serve in my mind, the view from this part of the world (U.S.) is distorted as well for entirely different reasons. -- Somebody else asked what non-U.S./English-speaking news outlets. I use... http://www.spiegel.de/ http://www.n-tv.de/ (albeit somewhat affiliated with CNN, sometimes offers a unique view) http://www.abendblatt.de/ http://www.handelsblatt.de/ For those who don't speak German well enough to understand the original, Babelfish @ www.altavista.com does a decent job on some of the articles. Sometimes it doesn't. I also occasionally peruse some of the media outlets down under (Sydney Herald etc) for alternate views and commentary. On subjects that are important to me, I typically seek several points of view in my attempt to build a picture. Looking outside the U.S. is very valuable. Cheers, Chris

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ISP connected in Canada to Genuity
by German Martinez 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

Hi, I'm looking for big ISP connected to Genuity in Canada. Please respond off-line Thank you German ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * THE DILBERT FUTURE * * Thriving on Stupidity in the 21st Century * ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Internet capacity will increase indefinitely to keep up with the egos of the people using it"

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RE: FW: Photos of Palestinians celebrating World Trade Center att ack
by Greg Mirsky 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

Yes, they know. They're selebrating deaths of people. The same way they were selebrating deaths at Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv, Sbarro in Jerusalem. The only reason you haven't seen this pictures - political correctness of American mass-media. Greg -----Original Message----- From: Christian Kuhtz [mailto:christian@kuhtz.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 1:52 PM To: Greg Mirsky Cc: 'nanog(a)merit.edu' Subject: Re: FW: Photos of Palestinians celebrating World Trade Center attack Do you guys really believe these people really know what they're celebrating?

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Re: FW: Photos of Palestinians celebrating World Trade Center attack
by Scott Gifford 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

Greg Mirsky <gmirsky(a)axiowave.com> writes: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Jacob <mailto:jeffj@mysticom.com> > To: Jeff Jacob <mailto:jeffj@mysticom.com> > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:37 AM > Subject: Photos of Palestinians celebrating World Trade Center attack > > Notice that many of the Palestinians hold up their fingers in a gesture of > peace. > Is this the kind of cruel "peace" that they are advocating? > On NPR, one celebrating Palestinian was asked if he realized that over 50,000 people work in the World Trade Center. He replied, "No, no I didn't realize that" and stopped cheering. When you have a crowd celebrating, they don't always realize just what they're celebrating... ----ScottG.

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RE: Yes it's off topic but who cares right now.
by Roeland Meyer 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

|> From: Patrick Greenwell [mailto:patrick@cybernothing.org] |> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:48 AM |> |> On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, David Klindt wrote: |> |> > > If you were one that infected the dog with rabies in the |> first place, you |> > > might consider ways to avoid doing so in the future to prevent |> > > reoccurances. |> > |> > Th dog has rabies... drop him....The USA can not and is |> not responsible |> > for every nuts problems. |> |> In the case of the U.S, they created the nut. The CIA |> trained and funded |> bin Laden. The U.S. also funded Hussein. |> |> I keep saying this over and over but it appears that it's |> not being heard. It's being heard. CIA and USAR trained me too, along with all the other Vietnam Era vets. I don't go around playing terrorist and neither do the rest of us. I've been a peacful engineer for 25 years. Ossama bin Ladin needs to become a peacful farmer, pushing up daisies. Those of us who fought terrorism in the '70's, learned more than we ever wanted to know about the subject. I have friends who still have nighmares (different response to DSS). Every one of them would go through it again, to safe-guard our civilization against terrorism. Talk about a dirty job, but it needs to be done, like whacking weeds. I'm sorry if this offends some sensibilities but, last Tuesday as a predictible result of letting the weeds grow too tall. Now, we have to go out there with a tractor and plow. BTW, those whom advocate indiscriminate killing, have no clue. With that point, I agree.

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Looking for a new ISP in London England
by Lee Watterworth 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

Hello, One of our current ISPs is already overpriced, and expects roughly $4000 for a simple BGP configuration, and an additional $350 monthly to maintain BGP. Our other ISPs handle BGP at no additional cost. Please email recommendations off-list. Thanks -Lee

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RE: Yes it's off topic but who cares right now.
by Greg Mirsky 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

And you add albanians-KLA to that list. Stupid foreign policy is not a topic of discussion right now. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Greenwell [mailto:patrick@cybernothing.org] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 1:48 PM To: David Klindt Cc: M. David Leonard; 'nanog(a)merit.edu' Subject: RE: Yes it's off topic but who cares right now. On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, David Klindt wrote: > > If you were one that infected the dog with rabies in the first place, you > > might consider ways to avoid doing so in the future to prevent > > reoccurances. > > Th dog has rabies... drop him....The USA can not and is not responsible > for every nuts problems. In the case of the U.S, they created the nut. The CIA trained and funded bin Laden. The U.S. also funded Hussein. I keep saying this over and over but it appears that it's not being heard.

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RE: Yes it's off topic but who cares right now.
by Borchers, Mark 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

I certainly agree that our country has an obligation to the victims and to the cause of justice to take some sort of action. However, I hope that in the event that more innocent lives are lost in the course of our response, that Americans will not revel and celebrate the way that we saw some Middle Easterners doing. I do not think the people we saw dancing in the streets on the news were typical Arab citizens. The typical observant Muslim is a monotheist with a high sense of ethics and considers terrorists to be.....terrorists. The better classes of Muslims are remarkably similar to the better classes of Americans. Unfortunately, we too have our share of bums who will be cheering on their barstools and consider it to be entertainment should the conflict spill over to impact innocents....as the terrorists very likely hope that it does. Ralph Los wrote: > > Ladies and gentlemen, I've been lurking around reading all > these 'love the > planet' emails, and I have to agree...killing is surely not > the answer - but > if you gave me an unlimited supply of rockets, and a lot of > killing power, > I'd point it at Afganistan and say....'Kill 'em all, let God > sort 'em out > later".......just my two cents...I had a friend who left his > wife a message > seconds before he died up there in south tower..."Honey, I'm > on the 92nd > floor and am not going to make it back to your arms alive - > remember I will > always love you" -then the line went dead....those words ring > through my > head over and over and over - I could have been there, so could you. > > True, there is no taking back what happened, but if GW > issued an act > of war, and did some re-arranging of the middle-east and the like, and > places like Afganistan, Iraq, and the Palestinian militant states > DISAPPEARED forever - no one, especially this blue-blooded > American would > shed a tear...and I as one...would see all the > psycho-terrorists to hell. > > Otherwise known as, > Dr. Blackfelt

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anybody know what's going on with att cable modems in MA?
by Miles Fidelman 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

A whole slew of ATT Broadband cable modems in the Greater Boston area have been off the air since midnight Tues. The folks at ATT have been less than useless in giving out any information. Does anybody know what's going on? Thanks much, Miles Fidelman ************************************************************************** The Center for Civic Networking PO Box 600618 Miles R. Fidelman, President & Newtonville, MA 02460-0006 Director, Municipal Telecommunications Strategies Program 617-558-3698 fax: 617-630-8946 mfidelman(a)civicnet.org http://civic.net/ccn.html Information Infrastructure: Public Spaces for the 21st Century Let's Start With: Internet Wall-Plugs Everywhere Say It Often, Say It Loud: "I Want My Internet!" **************************************************************************

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[OT] NTK now, 2001-09-14 (excerpt)
by J.D. Falk 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

http://www.ntk.net In these terrible times, it's good to watch the tech community put its problems aside, and supply what we were all so desperately short of: plenty of wild unsolicited opinions. After those first few hours of awful shocked silence - what a relief to be interrupted by the CEO of CoffeeCup Software, producers of an innocuous Windows HTML editor, e-mailing his 1.2 million customer base to "call for [the responsible] country's complete destruction and annihilation". And at the end of that fateful day, noted hacker Eric S. Raymond rained his thoughts like fresh water, revealing that those who "disarmed all the non-terrorists on those airplanes ... bear some moral responsibility". Thanks too to BYTE's Jerry Pournelle, who slowly toughened his demands from an early request that /usr/bin/laden be handed over "bound and chained", to Thursday's demand that Nablus, Gaza, Baghdad *and* Damascus be razed to the ground; to the Evening Standard infowar expert who warned that "inflamed young men" could escalate the conflict by releasing "cyber viruses, crashing our computers ... from council houses in Bradford"; and kindly John Keegan in the Telegraph, who wrote that ISPs should ban encryption among their users, and those who refused must be "destroyed with cruise missiles". And on through the lonely nights, as net.folk on chat traded credulous rumours and confused geopolitics, and Nostradamus buffs mulled seriously over a quatrain that, sadly, was probably invented by a skeptic to show how *any* random phrase could end up a doomladen prophecy. But be assured that the crisis is not yet over. Please help: opinions are still desperately needed - and bloggers, columnists and sleep-deprived newsreaders are running short of ideas. So: do you have some minority you'd like to haphazardly blame? Some half-arsed genocidal theory you'd like to insist become global policy? Some simplistic demonisation of a country's recent history that needs to be waved in the faces of everyone you know? Mail it to our hotline on devnull(a)spesh.com, and we'll pass it on to those who must fill the useless silence which would otherwise be wasted on slow, methodical grief. http://www.coffeecup.com/attack/ - "many e-mails thanking me for removing the word 'annihilation'" http://www.adequacy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/9/12/102423/271 - Why the Bombings Mean That We Must Support My Politics http://www.jerrypournelle.com/war/whattodo.html - "There may be other places." http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/dt?pg=/01/9/14/do01.html - also, if their contention ratio goes above twenty, nuke 'em http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/top_story.html?in_review_id=4569… - no hidden meaning in using Bradford as an example http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus… - search for "abstract" ----- End forwarded message ----- And, for the record, I agree that political stuff should be moved off of NANOG -- though I greatly appreciate the efforts of Sean Donelan and others to keep us all informed on how the disaster affects the Internet. -- J.D. Falk all good dreams return in time <jdfalk(a)cybernothing.org>

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