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Re: mitigating botnet C&Cs has become useless
by Scott Weeks 02 Aug '06

02 Aug '06

"cyberspace is just a meatspace overlay" I'm just sitting here with my mouth open and nothing to say. I'm going to have to chew and digest that mouthful of meat (and all it implies) for a while. (pun intended... :-) "the only technical solution is "gated communities"" That's definitely what's done now in meatspace for protection against the vile dweebs. Lotsa protection where the money is and badlands where it isn't. scott ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: Paul Vixie <vixie(a)vix.com> To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: mitigating botnet C&Cs has become useless Date: 02 Aug 2006 06:29:55 +0000 > surfer(a)mauigateway.com ("Scott Weeks") writes: > > > ... I'm just saying that there has to be a better way > > than police-type actions on a global scale. ... > > no, there doesn't have to be such a way. where the stakes > are in meatspace (pun unintended), the remediation has to > be in meatspace. cyberspace is just a meatspace overlay, > it can only pretend to have different laws when nothing > outside of cyberspace is at stake. i think that the days > when botnets were mostly used for kiddie-on-kiddie > violence or even gangster-on- gangster violence are > permanently behind us. it's up to the real LEOs now, > because it's on their turf now, which is to say, it's in > the real world now. > > as was true of spam when i said this about spam ten years > ago, it is true now of botnets that the only technical > solution is "gated communities". but the internet's > culture, which merely mirrors the biases of those who use > it, requires the ability for children to go door to door > selling girl scout cookies, without necessarily having the > key code to every one of the doors. > > so the internet community has no appetite for the > trappings of any technical solution to botnets. the > meatspace community and their LEOs absolutely *do*. -- > Paul Vixie

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Re: mitigating botnet C&Cs has become useless
by Scott Weeks 02 Aug '06

02 Aug '06

----- Original Message Follows ----- From: Barry Shein <bzs(a)world.std.com> > > That's all fine and dandy until you consider the > > international base of these things. I'd like to see > a meeting at the Massachussets state house probably around > 1998 and being shouted down by this reasoning for a few > minutes. > > Believe it or not spam is not the only internationalized > problem on this planet. There's drug trade, actual > high-seas piracy, slave trade, phone fraud, investment > fraud, and on and on. > > So the usual snappy response is: And look how well we do > with all that! > > Well, yes, you can make the best the enemy of the good. > But there's a logical fallacy involved in trying to > extrapolate that to "so therefore we should do nothing". I did not mean to shout anyone down by saying what I did and trying to extrapolate to 'therefore we should do nothing'. I also did not mean to imply sloppy writing. For sure, it's more my misunderstanding than either of those. Also, it was an interesting article. I only meant that meatspace asskicking probably won't get us very far, especially in light of current intercountry cooperation. Also, wouldn't it just teach them what countries to focus their efforts on similar to the context of the article? I just hope to inject that there has to be a technical way to do this, rather than a diplomatic way as the diplomatic ways historically have not worked in the other areas mentioned, so they probably won't work here, either. Or we have to keep going until one can be contrived. Many good attempts have been made and there will be more to come until we hopefully rid ourselves of the sickness others of lower values force on us daily. scott (quickly putting on flameproof underware... ;)

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Re: mitigating botnet C&Cs has become useless
by Scott Weeks 02 Aug '06

02 Aug '06

----- Original Message Follows ----- From: "Fergie" <fergdawg(a)netzero.net> > >mentioned haven't worked at all. I'm just saying that > there >has to be a better way than police-type actions on > a global >scale. Also, I'm sure many more smart people > Personally, I think there is wiggle-room between what Gadi > surmises (persoanlly, I think he is playing Devil's > advocate), what everyone else may surmise as an effort > into nothingness, and what Vixie professes (if anyone > bothered to read what he forwarded -- I did, and very much > agree). I read it all carefully. Twice. I'm not taking sides here. Please don't put me in that position. I'm only beating a point to death. Common NANOG futility. You know the deal... :-) > I actually think there is _a_lot_ which can be, and should > be, done. What? That's what I'm trying to find out, but I'm not as smart as most, so I can only point out the things that I believe definitely won't work and why I think that. Hopefully by the application of flame to my butt by smart people for saying what I do will spark some thought toward the goal. > I actually think there is _a_lot_ which can be, and should > be, done. > > Turning a blind eye is unnacceptable, and right now, ISP's > are in the spotlight w.r.t. doing just that: > There is _major_ room for improvement, so I guess the > relevant question becomes: Are people part of the problem > or part of the solution? > > What's the measuring stick? I get a 1984-like mgmtspeak feeling here. I don't know how to respond except with this attempt (in order): what are some suggestions for the major improvement, people are both the problem and the solution (as in everything) and the measuring stick is a noticable decline in the nefarious deeds on the public internet. scott

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Re: mitigating botnet C&Cs has become useless
by Fergie 02 Aug '06

02 Aug '06

-- "Scott Weeks" <surfer(a)mauigateway.com> wrote: [snip] >Yes, you're correct. I didn't mean to say the things you >mentioned haven't worked at all. I'm just saying that there >has to be a better way than police-type actions on a global >scale. Also, I'm sure many more smart people will work on >it for many more years and others will make billions more >before it's solved. But it needs to be solved on the same >playing field that the ugliness is occurring on. You don't >solve San Diego's slave trade by kicking ass on Indonesia's >pirates. > >Last, you're also correct that this is leading nowhere. I >made my point and have now beat it to death. Thanks for >listening... > >scott > Personally, I think there is wiggle-room between what Gadi surmises (persoanlly, I think he is playing Devil's advocate), what everyone else may surmise as an effort into nothingness, and what Vixie professes (if anyone bothered to read what he forwarded -- I did, and very much agree). I actually think there is _a_lot_ which can be, and should be, done. Turning a blind eye is unnacceptable, and right now, ISP's are in the spotlight w.r.t. doing just that: http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/ISPs_accused_of_ignoring_botnet_i… There is _major_ room for improvement, so I guess the relevant question becomes: Are people part of the problem or part of the solution? What's the measuring stick? - ferg -- "Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawg(at)netzero.net ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/

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RE: BGP and GLB.
by Barry Greene (bgreene) 02 Aug '06

02 Aug '06

Anycast - it is a widget - not a solution. Go here http://www.nanog.org/subjects.html, look for Anycast, and watch the VODs. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On > Behalf Of Robert Sherrard > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 5:54 PM > To: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: BGP and GLB. > > Does anyone know of some good writeup that details using BGP > as a form of global load balancing, between multiple sites. > > Rob > >

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BGP and GLB.
by Robert Sherrard 02 Aug '06

02 Aug '06

Does anyone know of some good writeup that details using BGP as a form of global load balancing, between multiple sites. Rob

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Re: mitigating botnet C&Cs has become useless
by Scott Weeks 01 Aug '06

01 Aug '06

----- Original Message Follows ----- From: Paul Vixie <vixie(a)vix.com> > > Today it has become (close to) completely useless. ... > > i wish that the value of this activity were zero. instead > , it's negative. see <http://fm.vix.com/internet/security/superbugs.html> > for details. -- That's all fine and dandy until you consider the international base of these things. I'd like to see "...jackbooted [US is implied in the text] government thugs...kicking in a door somewhere and confiscating every powered device and every living person in the building" in China, an African country, Russia, or <insert country of choice here>. These things span continents and countries and every time you cutoff the current head, it immediately spawns another and not always in a country that cares. scott

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None
by Dr. Mosh 01 Aug '06

01 Aug '06

unsubscribe -- -------------- http://www.zeromemory.com - metal for your ears.

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AOL Email Contact me offline please
by Elijah Savage 01 Aug '06

01 Aug '06

It is not about spam or being blocked I actually would like to speak with someone about services provided. This is very important as I can not find my answers on the postmasters website. Thank you

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Drone Armies C&C Report - 01 Aug 2006
by c2report＠isotf.org 01 Aug '06

01 Aug '06

This is a periodic public report from the ISOTF's affiliated group 'DA' (Drone Armies (botnets) research and mitigation mailing list / TISF DA) with the ISOTF affiliated ASreport project (TISF / RatOut). For this report it should be noted that we base our analysis on the data we have accumulated from various sources, which may be incomplete. Any responsible party that wishes to receive reports of botnet command and control servers on their network(s) regularly and directly, feel free to contact us. For purposes of this report we use the following terms open the host completed the TCP handshake closed No activity detected reset issued a RST This month's survey is of 3639 unique, domains (or IPs) with port suspect C&Cs. This list is extracted from the BBL which has a historical base of 10895 reported C&Cs. Of the suspect C&Cs surveyed, 658 reported as Open, 932 reported as closed, and 570 issued resets to the survey instrument. Of the C&Cs listed by domain name in the our C&C database, 4818 are mitigated. Top 20 ASNes by Total suspect domains mapping to a host in the ASN. These numbers are determined by counting the number of domains which resolve to a host in the ASN. We do not remove duplicates and some of the ASNs reported have many domains mapping to a single IP. Note the Percent_resolved figure is calculated using only the Total and Open counts and does not represent a mitigation effectiveness metric. Percent_ ASN Responsible Party Total Open Resolved 19318 NJIIX-AS-1 - NEW JERSEY INTERN 71 16 77 13301 UNITEDCOLO-AS Autonomous System of 63 29 54 4766 KIXS-AS-KR 41 12 71 23522 CIT-FOONET 39 14 64 4134 CHINANET-BACKBONE 32 15 53 9318 HANARO-AS 27 8 70 8560 SCHLUND-AS 27 6 78 16265 LEASEWEB AS 27 19 30 4837 CHINA169-Backbone 25 11 56 3561 Savvis 25 4 84 12832 Lycos Europe 25 5 80 33597 InfoRelay Online Systems, Inc. 24 0 100 174 Cogent Communications 23 16 30 7132 SBC Internet Services 23 5 78 30315 Everyones Internet 22 8 64 19166 Alpha Red, INC 22 10 55 4314 IIS-64 I-55 INTERNET SERVICES 21 2 90 13213 UK2NET-AS UK-2 Ltd Autonomous Syste 20 0 100 30058 FDCSE FDCservers.net LLC 19 6 68 13749 EVRY Everyones Internet 19 1 95 Top 20 ASNes by number of active suspect C&Cs. These counts are determined by the number of suspect domains or IPs located within the ASN completed a connection request. Percent_ ASN Responsible Party Total Open Resolved 13301 UNITEDCOLO-AS Autonomous System of 63 29 54 16265 LEASEWEB AS 27 19 30 174 Cogent Communications 23 16 30 19318 NJIIX-AS-1 - NEW JERSEY INTERN 71 16 77 4134 CHINANET-BACKBONE 32 15 53 30407 Velcom.com 16 15 6 23522 CIT-FOONET 39 14 64 9316 DACOM-PUBNETPLUS-AS-KR 14 13 7 35908 Krypt Technologies Inc. 17 13 24 4766 KIXS-AS-KR 41 12 71 4837 CHINA169-Backbone 25 11 56 19166 Alpha Red, INC 22 10 55 1659 ERX-TANET-ASN1 16 9 44 18942 WEBHO-3 WebHostPlus Inc 13 9 31 9318 HANARO-AS 27 8 70 30315 Everyones Internet 22 8 64 25761 STAMIN-2 Staminus Communications 14 8 43 31312 VNL Video Networks Limited 8 7 13 8560 SCHLUND-AS 27 6 78 9911 CONNECTPLUS-AP Singapore Telecom 9 6 33 Randal Vaughn Gadi Evron Professor ge at linuxbox.org Baylor University Waco, TX (254) 710 4756 randy_vaughn at baylor.edu

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