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Network SLA
by Saqib Ilyas 15 Apr '09

15 Apr '09

Greetings I am curious to know about any tools/techniques that a service provider uses to assess an SLA before signing it. That is to say, how does an administrator know if he/she can meet what he is promising. Is it based on experience? Are there commonly used tools for this? Thanks and best regards -- Muhammad Saqib Ilyas PhD Student, Computer Science and Engineering Lahore University of Management Sciences

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Anyone from Intelligence Network Online?
by Justin Ream 15 Apr '09

15 Apr '09

Hi - I wanted to see if anyone is here from Intelligence Network Online - I suspect an old AS number and a /16 of yours is being hijacked by a spam gang operating in downtown LA and wanted to get some confirmation. -Justin

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RE: Fiber cut in SF area
by Gino Villarini 15 Apr '09

15 Apr '09

Here in my area most of business outfits that require maximum availability of Internet or WAN conenctions have implemented dual connections from dual providers, most with a fiber/copper main and a fixed wireless backup. This trend goes from banks to Mcdonalds Gino A. Villarini gav(a)aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Amodio [mailto:jmamodio@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:21 AM To: nanog(a)nanog.org Subject: Re: Fiber cut in SF area > "Earth is a single point of failure." On top of that, one basic principle of telecommunications: No matter how much diversity and path redundancy, tons of concrete or titanium sealed fiber vaults you have, in the data exchange between points A and B there will be always two single points of failure: A and B. IMHO, this thread is getting way off topic, boring and useless. Fiber cut is over, there will be many more, move on ... Cheers Jorge

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RE: Fiber cut in SF area
by Gino Villarini 15 Apr '09

15 Apr '09

Good points, some variables are dependant on the network infrastructure of the wireless provider. Localy, the main 2 providers have a "copper/fiber independent" networks. Gino A. Villarini gav(a)aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -----Original Message----- From: Deepak Jain [mailto:deepak@ai.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:36 PM To: Gino Villarini; Jorge Amodio; nanog(a)nanog.org Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area I don't mean to jump in here and state the obvious, but wireless links are not a panacea. At least a few folks have presented that fiber grooming has affected their *region*. It's not difficult to imagine that wherever the "head" link side (or agg point) of these regional wireless networks is... probably coincides with a fiber network or other telecom POP. You are just moving where your last mile vulnerabilities are (slightly.. as you are picking up multiple power vulnerabilities, Line of Sight, and other things along the way). In the example of a tornado or other weather disturbance, wireless links are subject to fade just as much as any kind of aerial wired asset. Deepak Jain AiNET > -----Original Message----- > From: Gino Villarini [mailto:gav@aeronetpr.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:12 PM > To: Jorge Amodio; nanog(a)nanog.org > Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area > > Here in my area most of business outfits that require maximum > availability of Internet or WAN conenctions have implemented dual > connections from dual providers, most with a fiber/copper main and a > fixed wireless backup. This trend goes from banks to Mcdonalds > > > Gino A. Villarini > gav(a)aeronetpr.com > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jorge Amodio [mailto:jmamodio@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:21 AM > To: nanog(a)nanog.org > Subject: Re: Fiber cut in SF area > > > "Earth is a single point of failure." > > On top of that, one basic principle of telecommunications: > > No matter how much diversity and path redundancy, tons of concrete or > titanium sealed fiber vaults you have, in the data exchange between > points A and B there will be always two single points of failure: A > and B. > > IMHO, this thread is getting way off topic, boring and useless. > > Fiber cut is over, there will be many more, move on ... > > Cheers > Jorge

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RE: Fiber cut in SF area
by Gino Villarini 14 Apr '09

14 Apr '09

My point is more toward end users that need redundant options ... Im yet to find a Mcdonalds, a Bank Branch or a ATM that needs a GigE circuit ... Fixed Wireless in the 512 kbps to 6 Mbps range... SF area is serviced by Covad Wireless division among others, every major US city is served by at least 1 or 2 reputable business class Wireless ISP's. Gino A. Villarini gav(a)aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -----Original Message----- From: Holmes,David A [mailto:dholmes@mwdh2o.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:12 PM To: Gino Villarini; Deepak Jain; Jorge Amodio; nanog(a)nanog.org Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area Wireless RF links have their drawbacks: 1. Current GHz Frequency technology places upper limit of 1 Gbps on point-to-point links, and distance at 1 Gbps is limited. Commercial GiGE radios are just now appearing, replacing 100 Mbps Ethernet and oc3 SONET radios. Telco use of wireless links to backup 10/40 GiGE fiber trunks in metropolitan areas is not scalable. 2. Wireless technology contains hardware plethora of nuts, bolts, cables, fasteners, custom-tuned crystals, dishes, passive/active reflectors, in addition to layer 1 tuning best performed by EE specializing in RF. 3. Relative to fiber optic technologies, there is a very small circle of RF companies that can install, tune, and maintain wireless links correctly and reliably. 4. Tower-climbing/working skills are essential. But, what is the state of diverse telco fiber paths such that this fiber cut was not transparent to users in such a key US metropolitan area? -----Original Message----- From: Gino Villarini [mailto:gav@aeronetpr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 1:42 PM To: Deepak Jain; Jorge Amodio; nanog(a)nanog.org Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area Good points, some variables are dependant on the network infrastructure of the wireless provider. Localy, the main 2 providers have a "copper/fiber independent" networks. Gino A. Villarini gav(a)aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -----Original Message----- From: Deepak Jain [mailto:deepak@ai.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:36 PM To: Gino Villarini; Jorge Amodio; nanog(a)nanog.org Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area I don't mean to jump in here and state the obvious, but wireless links are not a panacea. At least a few folks have presented that fiber grooming has affected their *region*. It's not difficult to imagine that wherever the "head" link side (or agg point) of these regional wireless networks is... probably coincides with a fiber network or other telecom POP. You are just moving where your last mile vulnerabilities are (slightly.. as you are picking up multiple power vulnerabilities, Line of Sight, and other things along the way). In the example of a tornado or other weather disturbance, wireless links are subject to fade just as much as any kind of aerial wired asset. Deepak Jain AiNET > -----Original Message----- > From: Gino Villarini [mailto:gav@aeronetpr.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:12 PM > To: Jorge Amodio; nanog(a)nanog.org > Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area > > Here in my area most of business outfits that require maximum > availability of Internet or WAN conenctions have implemented dual > connections from dual providers, most with a fiber/copper main and a > fixed wireless backup. This trend goes from banks to Mcdonalds > > > Gino A. Villarini > gav(a)aeronetpr.com > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jorge Amodio [mailto:jmamodio@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:21 AM > To: nanog(a)nanog.org > Subject: Re: Fiber cut in SF area > > > "Earth is a single point of failure." > > On top of that, one basic principle of telecommunications: > > No matter how much diversity and path redundancy, tons of concrete or > titanium sealed fiber vaults you have, in the data exchange between > points A and B there will be always two single points of failure: A > and B. > > IMHO, this thread is getting way off topic, boring and useless. > > Fiber cut is over, there will be many more, move on ... > > Cheers > Jorge

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AS701 IPv6 at One Wilshire?
by Jay Hennigan 14 Apr '09

14 Apr '09

Is anyone getting IPv6 native (not tunneled) from Verizon/UUNet/MCI via ethernet at One Wilshire? We're getting conflicting reports as to its availability there. Their sales people appear to be clue-deprived re v6. Off-list replies are fine. -- Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Engineering - jay(a)impulse.net Impulse Internet Service - http://www.impulse.net/ Your local telephone and internet company - 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV

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Fibre Cut in North Carolina
by Myke Lyons 14 Apr '09

14 Apr '09

Does anyone have any more information on the cut AT&T cut in Chapel Hill? .myke

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Re: Fiber cut in SF area
by Scott Doty 14 Apr '09

14 Apr '09

David Edwards wrote: > At 12:55 PM 4/9/2009, you wrote: >> >From the news coverage it appears to be in the general area of >> http://cow.org/r/?545c >> >> -r > > Interesting. The report I got from a vendor was that it is Above.net > with a fiber cut in Redwood City which is affecting a circuit of mine > between 200 Paul in SF and PAIX in Palo Alto, which is a ways from > south San Jose. http://www.kcbs.com/Phone-Outage-Likely-Caused-by-Vandals/4174734 ''Police say that at 1:20 a.m., four to five fiber optic cables located beneath a manhole were cut and severed on Monterey Highway, north of Blossom Hill Road.'' ''In San Carlos, vandals struck a second time along Old County Road at the edge of San Carlos and Redwood City'' I also heard on KCBS: The cuts were in 4 manholes in San Carlos, and they said it was "seven cables". (Not sure if that means the same 7 cables were cut 4 times, or what...) I also heard: there were 4 cables cut in the South SJ manhole. A lot of comms (incl. 911) are out for Santa Cruz County, as well as South Santa Clara Country, including Gilroy and Morgan Hill. Just now, from their web stream, they refer to this as "an act of sabotage". On interview was with an "info-worker" in Morgan Hill, and for her, this was "the end of the world". (Personally, I can think of a "MAE-Clueless" episode that was worse than this, but that was in the 90's...) Finally -- and I'm not a lawyer -- I want to note that killing 911 to a city can get you tried for murder in California, if someone dies as a result, if I understand the law correctly. Better days, -Scott

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RE: Fiber cut in SF area
by Skywing 14 Apr '09

14 Apr '09

Apologies for continuing this thread, but -- I don't understand this preoccupation with "early warning" systems on access to said manhole. What's the point? There are two possibilities here: 1) Someone goes down there and breaks something. You *already* know when this happens, because of your normal link monitoring. 2) There's a false positive (i.e. nothing malicious is done). >From where I stand, these seem like ways to spend money in order to increase the reporting noise. Or am I missing something? Irregardless, it would be wise to focus on the *common* causes of outages. The things that happen and cause customers pain every day, due to more mundane occurrances like backhoes. Regardless of whether it's a hacksaw or a backhoe that takes out a cable, the customer is still down. Simple economics seem to dictate that the most attention should be devoted to the problems where you get the most "bang for your buck" - i.e. not movie theatre plot scenarios that happen once in many blue moons when there are so many other, far too common (and yet mundane) causes of outages. - S -----Original Message----- From: Peter Beckman <beckman(a)angryox.com> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 11:19 To: Dylan Ebner <dylan.ebner(a)crlmed.com> Cc: nanog(a)nanog.org <nanog(a)nanog.org> Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area On Mon, 13 Apr 2009, Dylan Ebner wrote: > It will be easier to get more divergence than secure all the manholes in > the country. I still think skipping the securing of manholes and access points in favor of active monitoring with offsite access is a better solution. You can't keep people out, especially since these manholes and tunnels are designed FOR human access. But a better job can be done of monitoring and knowing what is going on in the tunnels and access points from a remote location. Cheap: light sensor + cell phone = knowing exactly when and where the amount of light in the tunnel changes. Detects unauthorized intrusions. Make sure to detect all visible and IR spectrum, should someone very determined use night vision and IR lights to disable the sensor. Mid-Range: Webcam + cell phone = SEEING what is going on plus everything above. High-end: Webcam + cell phone + wifi or wimax backup both watching the entrance and the tunnels. James Bond: Lasers. Active monitoring of each site makes sure each one is online. Pros: * Knowing immediately that there is a change in environment in your tunnels. * Knowing who or at least THAT something is in there * Being able to proactively mitigate attempts * Availability of Arduino, SIM card adapters, and sophisticated sensor and camera equipment at low cost Cons: * Cell provider outage or spectrum blocker removes live notifications * False positives are problematic and can lower monitoring thresholds * Initial expense of deployment of monitoring systems Farmers use tiny embedded devices on their farms to monitor moisture, rain, etc. in multiple locations to customize irrigation and to help avoid loss of crops. These devices communicate with themselves, eventually getting back to a main listening post which relays the information to the farmer's computers. Tiny, embedded, networked devices that monitor the environment in the tunnels that run our fiber to help avoid loss of critical communications services seems to be a good idea. Cheap, disposable devices that can communicate with each other as well as back to some HQ is a way to at least know about problems of access before they happen. No keys to lose, no technology keeping people out and causing repair problems. Some other things that could detect access problems: * Pressure sensors (maybe an open manhole causes a detectable change in air pressure in the tunnel) * Temperature sensors (placed near access points, detects welding and thermite use) * Audio monitor (can help determine if an alert is just a rat squealing or people talking -- could even be automated to detect certain types of noises) * IR (heat) motion detection, as long as giant rats/rodents aren't a problem * Humidity sensors (sell the data to weatherbug!) One last thought inspired by the guy who posted about pouring quick-set concrete in to slow repair. Get some heavy-duty bags, about 10 feet long and large enough to fill the space in the tunnel. More heavily secure the fiber runs directly around the access space, then inflate two bags on either side of the access point. Easily deflated, these devices also have an electronic device which can notify HQ that they are being deflated or the pressure inside is changing (indicating pushing or manipulation). That way you only need to put these bags at access points, not throughout the whole tunnel. Kinda low-tech, but could be effective. No keys needed, could be inflated/deflated quickly, and you still get notification back to a monitoring point. Beckman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman(a)angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: Fiber cut in SF area
by David Barak 14 Apr '09

14 Apr '09

--- On Mon, 4/13/09, chris.ranch(a)nokia.com <chris.ranch(a)nokia.com> wrote: >> From: Peter Beckman >> Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area > > Total cost...is about $3000 per mile for > equipment > I get the feeling you haven't deployed or operated large > networks. You never did say what the multiplier > was. How many miles or detection nodes there > were. Think millions. The number that popped > into my head when thinking of active detection measures for > the physical network is $billions. AT&T: 888,000 route miles(1). Verizon: 485,000 route miles(2). If we assume that 1/4 of AT&T and Verizon's route-miles are in the US(3), this would mean a capital expense of $666M and $364M respectively, not including any costs incurred for maintenance, monitoring, repair, false positive etc. In addition, as has been noted, this system wouldn't PREVENT a failure, it would just give you some warning that a failure may be coming, probably by a matter of minutes. In the words of Randy Bush, "I encourage my competitors to do this." David Barak Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise: http://www.listentothefranchise.com 1) http://www.att.com/gen/press-room?pid=4800&cdvn=news&newsarticleid=26554 2) http://mediumbusiness.verizon.com/about/network.aspx 3) I believe this to be an underestimate.

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