April 2003 - Test - lists.nanog.org

RE: Independent space from ARIN
by Kris Foster 14 Apr '03

14 Apr '03

> > Was this tongue in cheek? > > Nope. > > > I am not an economist, but this is a sure fire way to > destroy the internet > > as we know it today. > > Why is this so hard to believe? Real estate is mostly a free > market, and > that seems to perform pretty well for the most part. How is > address space > that different? Please explain how you believe this would destroy the > internet. There is a finite amount of IPv4 address space. If you recall the spectrum auctions of years past, only the ultra-wealthy become owners of it. The only good thing that would come of it, would be forcing everyone to transition to IPv6. Kris

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RE: Independent space from ARIN
by Dave Israel 14 Apr '03

14 Apr '03

On 4/14/2003 at 16:33:34 -0400, Brandon Ross said: > > On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Kris Foster wrote: > > > Was this tongue in cheek? > > Nope. > > > I am not an economist, but this is a sure fire way to destroy the internet > > as we know it today. > > Why is this so hard to believe? Real estate is mostly a free market, and > that seems to perform pretty well for the most part. How is address space > that different? Please explain how you believe this would destroy the > internet. There's a lot more available real estate than available v4 address space. That's the biggest one. Second, groups that make the Internet go aren't necessarily the ones who can afford the address space. Third, there's no root owner of the address space, so who is going to sell it? But really, you just need the first one: small space. The relatively small pool means that a large company with lots of money could buy the whole ARIN chunk of the Internet. Speculators would probably buy address space and leave it unused, much like they do for domain names. Address space would have to be bought and sold on arbitrary borders, resulting in massive fragmentation of the tables. On the good side, address-based lawsuits would revitalize our flagging litigous economy ;-) And I agree with what others are saying: It would kick IPv6 into high gear. I'm not sure that's a good thing, however. -Dave

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RE: Independent space from ARIN
by Kris Foster 14 Apr '03

14 Apr '03

Was this tongue in cheek? I am not an economist, but this is a sure fire way to destroy the internet as we know it today. Kris > -----Original Message----- > From: Brandon Ross [mailto:bross@sockeye.com] > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 4:20 PM > To: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: Re: Independent space from ARIN > > > > The solution to the problems posted in this thread about ARIN > is fairly > simple. It's time to deregulate the IP address market and > convert to a > free market approach to allocating IP addresses. If address > space could > be bought and sold on a free market you would no longer have > to justify > your address space to anyone, saving untold amount of > resources and costs > pulling these reports together. Of course, address space wouldn't be > wasted the way it is today by organizations that hoard it, or > by companies > that go out of business because it would make sound financial sense to > sell what you don't need. > > ARIN (and the other registries as well) could still exist and > function as > a central repository (think of a title registry) of > information about the > current ownership of address blocks. > > -- > Brandon Ross > AIM: BrandonNR > VP Operations > ICQ: 2269442 > Sockeye Networks > > >

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Cisco Support for Lawful Intercept in IP Networks
by Sean Donelan 14 Apr '03

14 Apr '03

What are service providers doing concerning lawful intercept support in their networks? Fred Baker, et al published an internet draft this month (April 2003) containing a lawful intercept architecture. http://www.rfc-editor.org/internet-drafts/draft-baker-slem-architecture-00.… Has anyone gotten a real set of requirements from the FBI for lawful intercept in IP Networks? Would Cisco's proposed architecture work, or just result in buying more cisco equipment?

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RE: Independent space from ARIN [wandering further OT]
by Mike Damm 14 Apr '03

14 Apr '03

-----Original Message----- From: Brandon Ross [mailto:bross@sockeye.com] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 1:51 PM To: Valdis.Kletnieks(a)vt.edu Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Independent space from ARIN > > Overbuilding office space in San Francisco doesn't *usually* cause real > > estate issues in Tokyo. > > I must be missing your point because I don't see how that's relevant. > Think of the 69/8 space as being out in the middle of nowhere (due to the > bogon filters). It's cheap land but it comes with it's problems. If you > invest in it, you can increase it's value, if you don't want to, buy the > more expensive downtown property. And everything goes the way of the domain market. You mistype a .3 as a .4 and end up at some porn site! Or worse yet, Silicon Valley startups are building business models around peddling vanity IPs such as 69.69.69.69 and 4.2.2.4 on eBay. --- Michael Damm, MIS Department, Irwin Research & Development V: 509.457.5080 x298 F: 509.577.0301 E: miked(a)irwinresearch.com

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BGP Issue...
by Todd A. Blank 14 Apr '03

14 Apr '03

I have an operational question regarding BGP configuration - fairly advanced. I do not want to clutter the list. Can anyone who might be willing to discuss and/or help please email me off list? Thanks in advance. Sincerely, Todd A. Blank IPOutlet LLC 614.207.5853

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RE: Independent space from ARIN
by Jim Deleskie 14 Apr '03

14 Apr '03

IP space to the highest bidder.... Could be interesting.... I think it would break many things, but would be interesting none the less :) -jim -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Ross [mailto:bross@sockeye.com] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 4:34 PM To: Kris Foster Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: RE: Independent space from ARIN On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Kris Foster wrote: > Was this tongue in cheek? Nope. > I am not an economist, but this is a sure fire way to destroy the internet > as we know it today. Why is this so hard to believe? Real estate is mostly a free market, and that seems to perform pretty well for the most part. How is address space that different? Please explain how you believe this would destroy the internet. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brandon Ross [mailto:bross@sockeye.com] > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 4:20 PM > > To: nanog(a)merit.edu > > Subject: Re: Independent space from ARIN > > > > > > > > The solution to the problems posted in this thread about ARIN > > is fairly > > simple. It's time to deregulate the IP address market and > > convert to a > > free market approach to allocating IP addresses. If address > > space could > > be bought and sold on a free market you would no longer have > > to justify > > your address space to anyone, saving untold amount of > > resources and costs > > pulling these reports together. Of course, address space wouldn't be > > wasted the way it is today by organizations that hoard it, or > > by companies > > that go out of business because it would make sound financial sense to > > sell what you don't need. > > > > ARIN (and the other registries as well) could still exist and > > function as > > a central repository (think of a title registry) of > > information about the > > current ownership of address blocks. > > > > -- > > Brandon Ross > > AIM: BrandonNR > > VP Operations > > ICQ: 2269442 > > Sockeye Networks > > > > > > > -- Brandon Ross AIM: BrandonNR VP Operations ICQ: 2269442 Sockeye Networks

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Re: Dealing with ARIN.. my experiences & tips
by Jeff McAdams 14 Apr '03

14 Apr '03

Also Sprach Andrea Abrahamsen >1) Keep records of your IP allocations and assignments (and not just >with SWIP, you need utilization numbers). I know this is a royal pain >in the rear end, and it's not always easy to do with customers. Nah...our ticketing/provisioning/billing system does it. We've got this covered. Maybe not quite as complete as the information in yours was...but pretty darn close. >3) You have to request every three months or so. I'm sorry Jeff M., >but there's really no way around this, no matter how inefficient it may >seem. In other words, "Common sense is dead at ARIN." Which is basically about all I've been saying all along. I understand that they have their policies, and that they abide by them (that they aren't the same policies that are posted on their website is a seperate issue), my main points is that the policies are hideously, horribly broken, that they aren't published and are only learned through repeated dealings with them, and that ARIN's communication flat out sucks...to the point of flat out lieing. >Jeff, you've demonstrated that you are doing the Right Thing. Your >utilization is good and your practices seem well in-line with best >practices. ARIN will recognize this. Perhaps you don't think they do >right now, but if you were not in-line, they wouldn't have given you >any allocation at all. If my practices are in line with best practices, and its clear that I'm doing the Right Thing...then it shouldn't be nearly this onerous to deal with ARIN. This is demonstration that ARIN needs reforming with the cluebat...which is basically all I've said all along. >4) DO NOT TRY TO BEND THEIR RULES. Bend them? Shoot...I've been trying my darndest to even abide by them in the first place. It'd just be alot easier if they were accurately published, and it'd also be easier if they actually made any semblance of common sense. >If you want to protest them, the person who is doing your allocation >isn't the right person to protest to. I disagree with you here. The person to protest the rules to is anyone and everyone that's involved. ARIN makes the big bucks (apparently, I'm still scared to look)...they need to put up with me b****ing at them if they have inane policies like this. I can't believe those of you that meekly put up with this. ARIN's policies are inane, utterly lacking in common sense, and (even with the best of record keeping) ridiculously onerous for business (as you yourself basically even admitted). IgLou has experienced significant cost in interacting with ARIN, and our records are in quite good shape...I can only imagine what larger and/or less organized ISPs must experience in dealing with them. How much of the cable companies time was taken up by you having to deal with ARIN? How much did that cost them? Even with your systems? ARIN is a drain on the technical community, and nothing more considering that their policies don't accomplish what they're intended to accomplish. >5) See Rule #4. If they give you an allocation that you don't agree >with, and they won't budge, accept it. I've had to accept it...but you know what...every time it happens, they're going to hear about, and, if the forum is right (yes, its tangential here on nanog, but more on-topic than most convo's here) then I'm going to make a stink about it in public forums. The solution to corruption and beaurocracy is to shed light on it and embarrass those involved. I find it interest that there has been absolutely no official response =66rom ARIN concerning these issues here. I can only imagine that they're embarrased to confront their inadequacies. >Jeff M., I see your point that going back to ARIN after renumbering >half of the network is a tad on the ridiculous side. That's an understatement. >7) And finally.. ARIN are nice people. Really ! They're not big red >devils with flaming pitchforks just waiting to stab you in the hiney at >every chance they get. Work with them and they will work with you. I >actually started to *enjoy* my tri-montly interactions with them after >a while, if you can believe that. :) In general, the people that I've dealt with at ARIN have been fairly pleasent to deal with. My beef is not with them. Its with the (non-published) policies, and flat out lies (well...I guess an individual somewhere along the way is responsible for the lies, but that's long enough in the past that I don't know who it is, and it seems to be an institutionalized thing from what I can tell). ARIN needs to be reformed. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm(a)iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456

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Notice - Communitech (AS12077) gone from AADS NAP
by Randy Rostie 14 Apr '03

14 Apr '03

I sent this email out to all our peers at AADS that I had contact information for, but I thought I would send out this (belated,) notice to NANOG, in case I missed anyone. I am the peering coordinator for Communitech.net, AS12077. I regret to inform you we have shut down peering at AADS effective Friday April 11, 2003. I also apoligise for the delay in sending this email, as I was away from the office when the Atlanta NOC shut down our peering. Our IP at the AADS NAP is 206.220.243.138 VPI/VCI: 2/44 Communitech.net was purchased by Interland.com on February 8th, 2002. The decision was made in January of this year to migrate all of Communitech's servers to Interland's facility in Atlanta to consolidate and reduce costs. Most of the 209.15.0.0/8 IP range has already been moved to Atlanta, except for some leased line and colo customers and a couple of dedicated customers. The move will be complete at the end of May. We are actively looking for someone to take over the leased line and colocation customers in the Kansas City area, or else find an alternate facility to place them in until we do find someone to take over that part of Communitech's business. Randy Rostie Network Operations CommuniTech.Net, Inc.

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nph-traceroute
by Karyn Ulriksen 14 Apr '03

14 Apr '03

Hi All, I know that there are quite a few of you out there that are using the nph-traceroute scripts on your servers. A script kiddie has discovered that it's a vulnerable script and is actively search through Google for sites that are using this. It's kind of stupid because he just has www priveleges, but it has proved to be annoying. I know I should have plugged mine a while back and had planned to, but you know... the cobbler's children are barefoot and the shrink's wife is crazy. If you need a handy regex for checking if your perl based nph-traceroute or nph-ping is getting a domain or IP, let me know, I'll be happy to send it your way. The guy didn't think twice about doing a rm -rf / on all the website user/group content. Check your logs for quiet.unixman.org. Karyn

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