November 2002 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Even the New York Times withholds the address
by Sean Donelan 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/19/nyregion/19FUEL.html The New York Times is withholding the addresses of the buildings at the request of city officials, who cited their importance to international telecommunications and their potential as terrorist targets. While almost everyone on this list knows which building is the subject of the article, we can discuss the issue without discussing the particular building. On-site fuel storage is one of those double-edge swords. Without on-site fuel there are several "ordinary" disasters which would be worsened if the telecommunications infrastructure went dark. For example, during ice stores, hurricanes, etc we want telecom facilities to stay up for one, two or three days, depending on how long you believe it will take for the roads to be passible for fuel trucks or the power to be restored. On the other hand, storing 72-hours of fuel in a building is a lot of fuel. NORAD has a million of gallons of fuel to run for at least 30 days inside the mountain. Hospitals, police stations, etc have a similar problem. Natural gas, fuel cells, more batteries each have their own issues. Less fuel, more risk of a community's 9-1-1 service being interrupted. More fuel, more risk of a catastrophic building fire.

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Suggestions for ASP colo space that will be around in 3 years?
by Steve Francis 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

We're being booted from one of our main colo data centers by C&W closing down that facility. Our main priorities for picking a new data center to locate in are: 1. not having to move again within three years 2. physical security (or at least the impression thereof. We don't have unprotected consoles or anything, but as an ASP, we need an impressive facility for dog and pony shows.) 3. multiple providers (preferably carrier neutral, but so long as we can get 1Gb from another provider, even if via something like Telseon, that's OK.) Our other main datacenter is in an Equinix site, so for risk management, we don't want to go into any other Equinix site. So anyone have any insight as to who will be around within 3 years? Thanks

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Cogent bgp customers
by Basil Kruglov 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

Sorry for the off topic and I apologize in advance. But can someone who's got IP transit and BGP session with Cogent/AS11418 get in touch with me? I have a few really quick questions in re to their BGP policies. Please contact privately. Thanks in advance, -Basil @ CIFNet

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Re: Bin Laden Associate Warns of Cyberattack
by Gregory Hicks 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

Charter doesn't apply here...: nanog-offtopic(a)lists.blank.org Regards, Gregory Hicks ------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory Hicks | Principal Systems Engineer Cadence Design Systems | Direct: 408.576.3609 555 River Oaks Pkwy M/S 6B1 | Fax: 408.894.3400 San Jose, CA 95134 | Internet: ghicks(a)cadence.com "The trouble with doing anything right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was." When a team of dedicated individuals makes a commitment to act as one... the sky's the limit. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff

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Fwd: Next NANOG meeting/stats
by ren 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

Hi Susan, Is this date absolutely set in stone? First Halloween, now Valentine's Day... how is a girl supposed to toss a good party if you put everyone in airports for all the fun holidays? Geesh. -ren >The next NANOG meeting will be held February 9-11, 2003, in Phoenix, >Arizona, where it will be warm and sunny.

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Re: Bin Laden Associate Warns of Cyberattack
by Richard Irving 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

Hrmm... Al-Quaida is the one selling FUD all over America ? I can't decide if it is actually Al Quaida, the current Political Regime, or simply newspaper reporters "making the news" with a common modus aperandi. (FUD) Remember, "Great stories don't happen, reporters -make- great stories!" :* The only thing bothering me is it -all- still reeks of yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theatre..... ...and then passing corresponding legislation. To Paraphrase the -OLD- KGB: "Quick Comrade, we will protect you, sign here.... What ? You want to be Safe, Comrade, don't you ?" s/Comrade/Citizen/ I repeat my earlier post: "FUD is an inappropriate way to manage a Nation." * shrug * On a side note: How many people knew the moment that the President said: "There can -=only=- be ONE outcome..." He was going to eat his words ? It is sort of like a consultant saying: "All you have to do is....." :( You just -know- your in for it.... ;) .Richard. ========= "Only Criminals don't want to be Monitored" - Nazi Youth Slogan. In America we believe in psychics... After all, someone had enough premonition to name legal due process... "Habeas Corpus"... "Corpus", proved to be an example of one. :P And a Rep from my Old Stomping Grounds: http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul41.html router> conf t router# Abbie Hoffman (cr) router> who ? router> ^z Nixon was right, he always said eventually history would prove him out: Watergate is LEGAL! <I am going offline, Susan, promise, bye!> * S * sgorman1(a)gmu.edu wrote: > > It is a great example of how well Al-Quedah manipulates the media. > There are more ways to wreak havoc than script kiddies and DOS attacks. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Howe" <DaveHowe(a)gmx.co.uk> > Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:58 pm > Subject: Re: Bin Laden Associate Warns of Cyberattack > > > > > at Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:00 AM, Dan Hollis <goemon(a)anime.net> > > was seen to say: > > > "There are millions of Muslims around the world involved in hacking > > > the Pentagon and Israeli government sites," said Bakri." > > I wonder how they could tell amongst all the millions of script > > kiddieztrying the same thing? > > > > > > > > > >

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Re: Even the New York Times withholds the address
by Michael.Dillon＠radianz.com 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

>On-site fuel storage is one of those double-edge swords. Without on-site >fuel there are several "ordinary" disasters which would be worsened if >the telecommunications infrastructure went dark. For example, during ice >stores, hurricanes, etc we want telecom facilities to stay up for one, two >or three days, depending on how long you believe it will take for the >roads to be passible for fuel trucks or the power to be restored. This is a good example of an area where governments can intervene and do some good. 1. Local governments can prohibit fuel storage and generators at telecom sites. 2. Local governments can make it easy for telecom site operators to set up local generators and store fuel at sites that are near the telecom sites but not too near. Right now, people put the generators and the fuel in the same building because it is virtually impossible to install your own neighborhood power cabling. But there are few disaster scenarios in which a PoP would be undamaged at the same time as the nearby powerstation is out of action or disconnected. If the local power cable takes a different route from the power utility's cable then backhoe disease is avoided. If the local powerstation blows up, we are happy because the PoP is still running on utility power unlike the current situation. In fact, a single municipality could plan this as an integral part of their telecom infrastructure so that there are multiple telecom hotels spread far enough apart to avoid fate sharing and each one of them could be served by two local power stations, each of which serves several telecom hotels. These would also be spread apart to avoid fate sharing with utility power substations and cabling. If you were offered a colo facility that supplied AC power from one utility and two local generator substation sources, would you rate this better or worse than a colo facility that contained its own in-house generators and fuel storage tanks? P.S. What if the colo facility offered built-in water chillers for cooling with all the water piped downhill, down the block to a cooling tower? Would this be better or safer than existing systems? Could it possibly be built this way without municipal government involvement? --Michael Dillon

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Re: Even the New York Times withholds the address
by blitz 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

>This is a good example of an area where governments can intervene and do >some good. Ugh..I contend they never improve a situation, only make it worse. >1. Local governments can prohibit fuel storage and generators at telecom >sites. Telecom/Datacom sites would leave. period. You would be at a distinct disadvantage to the providers who DID have backup power. You would leave just after your customers did. >2. Local governments can make it easy for telecom site operators to set up >local generators and store fuel at sites that are near the telecom sites >but not too near. You have to run either fuel lines or power cables, take your choice. Imagine the local's reaction to a "Im going to build a big noisy diesel generator plant, right,...here..." I'd imagine in dense build situations like NYC its really hard to do anything more than is being done. This of course cries for decentralization and moving out and running rings. >Right now, people put the generators and the fuel in the same building >because it is virtually impossible to install your own neighborhood power >cabling. But there are few disaster scenarios in which a PoP would be >undamaged at the same time as the nearby powerstation is out of action or >disconnected. Transformer failure, underground cable failure, water main failure, street collapse, all come to mind. Most failures are of the more pedestrian types. If the entire town goes dark, most customers are dark as well. > If the local power cable takes a different route from the >power utility's cable then backhoe disease is avoided. If the local >powerstation blows up, we are happy because the PoP is still running on >utility power unlike the current situation. > >In fact, a single municipality could plan this as an integral part of >their telecom infrastructure so that there are multiple telecom hotels >spread far enough apart to avoid fate sharing and each one of them could >be served by two local power stations, each of which serves several >telecom hotels. These would also be spread apart to avoid fate sharing >with utility power substations and cabling. Problem is there isn't a whole lot of new planned building going on, most "hotels' are retrofits of older structures, their location such because of their proximity to the customer base/infrastructure. Youre stuck with what's available, and then limited by the particular building's design etc. In an ideal world there would be redundant power, water, sewer, fuel, served at two or more entrance points at each building, everyone would connect to each other via multiple access points on opposite sides of their buildings..everything else is a mitigation of the lack of a perfect solution. >If you were offered a colo facility that supplied AC power from one >utility and two local generator substation sources, would you rate this >better or worse than a colo facility that contained its own in-house >generators and fuel storage tanks? Unless the costs/difficulty of providing multiple connections to different substations goes dramatically down for some reason, you're going to be stuck with the incumbent power provider and a genny. Local control over your means of backup power generation, for maintenance and reliability is always preferential. If it doesn't work, and its my fault, its one thing, if it doesn't work when I need it and its someone else's job to provide it, all that happens is shysters get rich. >P.S. What if the colo facility offered built-in water chillers for cooling >with all the water piped downhill, down the block to a cooling tower? >Would this be better or safer than existing systems? Could it possibly be >built this way without municipal government involvement? Doubt it. Any time major construction of that type comes into play, municipalities want their piece. Marc

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Re: Bin Laden Associate Warns of Cyberattack
by sgorman1＠gmu.edu 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

> CAIDA tells us that over 25% of the Internet must be removed before > connectivity degrades. I'm quite a cynic, but I doubt the CIA > could pull off that kind of damage, much less al Qaeda Before we go yelling FUD about the media lets make sure we are not dissmeinating false information ourselves. The CAIDA analysis only looked at the 52,505 most connected IP addresses. Last time I checked there were a few more IP addresses than that on the Internet. Further, the 25% number was when the entire giant component disappeared not when connectivity "started" to degrade. The Internet is not "bombproof" and it is not "fragile", but somewhere in between. How far in which direction is up for debate, but lets at least try to make to debate intelligent and informed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Sprunk" <ssprunk(a)cisco.com> Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Bin Laden Associate Warns of Cyberattack > > Thus spake <Michael.Dillon(a)radianz.com> > > When was the last time you took a sample and tested for the > presence of > > fertilizer *BEFORE* you let the truck driver put that diesel > into your > > generator tanks? > > Worst case, you'd detect this during your periodic generator test :) > > > The best defence against all of these potential terrorist > attacks is to do > > what the military does, i.e. spread out. Never put more than a > fraction of > > your eggs in one basket. Use the network to connect diverse and > widespread> assets so that they can function as a unit even though > they are physically > > separated. > > Isn't that the reason that IP was designed the way it was? > > 9/11 showed us that, despite the relatively concentrated POPs in > NYC, the > Internet was still the only communications medium that survived the > attack --and it was largely unaffected, even for users located in NYC > itself! > > CAIDA tells us that over 25% of the Internet must be removed before > connectivity degrades. I'm quite a cynic, but I doubt the CIA > could pull > off that kind of damage, much less al Qaeda. > > > This philosophy works whether your assets are combat soldiers > > or network PoPs. And again, there is a role for government here. > How about > > tax reductions for companies who harden their networks by > removing single > > points of failure that are vulnerable to terrorist attack? > > Oh yes, let's create a tax credit system which will essentially > become an > arbitrary means for government officials to reward friends in the > privatesector in return for kickbacks. That'll definitely solve > the problem (which > has been shown not to exist). Look how well it's worked for > healthcare and > oil companies! > > S > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Sprunk" <ssprunk(a)cisco.com> Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Bin Laden Associate Warns of Cyberattack > > Thus spake <Michael.Dillon(a)radianz.com> > > When was the last time you took a sample and tested for the > presence of > > fertilizer *BEFORE* you let the truck driver put that diesel > into your > > generator tanks? > > Worst case, you'd detect this during your periodic generator test :) > > > The best defence against all of these potential terrorist > attacks is to do > > what the military does, i.e. spread out. Never put more than a > fraction of > > your eggs in one basket. Use the network to connect diverse and > widespread> assets so that they can function as a unit even though > they are physically > > separated. > > Isn't that the reason that IP was designed the way it was? > > 9/11 showed us that, despite the relatively concentrated POPs in > NYC, the > Internet was still the only communications medium that survived the > attack --and it was largely unaffected, even for users located in NYC > itself! > > CAIDA tells us that over 25% of the Internet must be removed before > connectivity degrades. I'm quite a cynic, but I doubt the CIA > could pull > off that kind of damage, much less al Qaeda. > > > This philosophy works whether your assets are combat soldiers > > or network PoPs. And again, there is a role for government here. > How about > > tax reductions for companies who harden their networks by > removing single > > points of failure that are vulnerable to terrorist attack? > > Oh yes, let's create a tax credit system which will essentially > become an > arbitrary means for government officials to reward friends in the > privatesector in return for kickbacks. That'll definitely solve > the problem (which > has been shown not to exist). Look how well it's worked for > healthcare and > oil companies! > > S > > >

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RE: WAS: Even the New York Times withholds the address
by James Smith 19 Nov '02

19 Nov '02

IIRC, the tanker used to refuel the SR-71 Blackbird had separate tanks for JP-4 (for itself) and JP-3 (for the Blackbird)... James H. Smith ex-SAC KC-135 fixer-upper -----Original Message----- From: Al Rowland [mailto:alan_r1@corp.earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:38 PM To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: OT: WAS: Even the New York Times withholds the address Actually, there are different grades of jet fuel as well as diesel. JP4 is 'common' but JP3 also has the characteristic of extinguishing fires and requires an accelerant to ignite. It was used in SR-71s among others. Best regards, ______________________________ Al Rowland -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Granados Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:28 AM To: Johannes Ullrich Cc: Sean Donelan; nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Even the New York Times withholds the address Diesel can even exstinguish flame in some cases. It is a much different anamal than aircraft fuel. There are concerns yes but not a good compairison. On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Johannes Ullrich wrote: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/19/nyregion/19FUEL.html > ... > > While almost everyone on this list knows which building is the > > subject of the article, we can discuss the issue without discussing > > the particular building. > > > > On-site fuel storage is one of those double-edge swords. > > The article is comparing the relatively 'inert' diesel fuel to the > aircraft fuel that caused the devastation at the WTC. Did the authors > of this article ever hear about heating oil tanks? > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > jullrich(a)euclidian.com Collaborative Intrusion Detection > join http://www.dshield.org >

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