July 2001 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Re: Common causes of performance problems and outages
by Avi Freedman 06 Jul '01

06 Jul '01

In article <10162.15117.22199(a)avi.netaxs.com> Sean wrote: : In roughly the order : 1. Network Engineers (What's this command do?) : 2. Power failures (What's this switch do?) : 3. Cable cuts (Backhoes, enough said) : 4. Hardware failures (What's that smell?) : 5. Congestion (More Bandwidth! Captain, I'm giving you all she's got!) : 6. Attacks (malicious, you know who you are) : 7. Software bugs (Your call is very important to us....) Very much disagree. Or at least, separate performance and outages. Outage/Instability: (Tie for 1st): 1) Shitty software from Major Router Vendors (and everyone else) 1) Misconfiguration a) Often caused by shitty/easy to fumble CLIs from Major Router Vendors 2) Attacks 3) Power failures 4) Cable cuts 5) (distant)Hardware failure Performance has been covered; the only real broadband is Universities, and relatively few transit networks can get to network large and small well. Avi

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Re: SWIP update intervals (was: Re: Getting an AS and /18)
by Bohdan Tashchuk 06 Jul '01

06 Jul '01

> ...and while we're on the subject of SWIPs, can I get a pet peeve off my > chest - the fact that RADB entries are updated in minutes, yet it takes > typically 24 hours or more for a SWIP database change to show up in the > servers (and the next day to even determine that the change was accepted > by the servers)? Is there any real reason for ARIN to not be able to > update the database in near-real-time? The problem is that none of these organizations have any real incentive to care. They're all "monopolies". For example, recently NetSol updated whois database at 2AM on 6/28/01 and didn't bother to update again until 6PM on 7/2/01. Approx. 112 hours later. There are a LOT of things that depend on whois. But, despite language at icann.org web site that says NSI Registry Agreement (form approved 4 November 1999) 9. Publication by NSI of Registry Data. (A) NSI shall provide an interactive web page and a port 43 Whois service providing free public query-based access to up-to-date (i.e. updated at least daily) registry database data NetSol obviously doesn't give a damn about whether or not whois is up to date. They don't have to. Their lucrative monopoly was recently extended for many more years. Unfortunately I don't know of a simple way that databases like these can be maintained without relying on a monopoly organization doing the actual work. It's just something you need to learn to live with. Nothing described similar monopolies better than Lily Tomlin's memorable character Ernestine the telephone operator: We're the phone company. We don't care, we don't have to.

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High speed access
by Roeland Meyer 06 Jul '01

06 Jul '01

If you'd get off the broadband schtick and onto the high-speed schtick (which is what you're really asking about) then we might get somewhere. At one time, PacBell almost had 10Mbps to the home (HFC). Yes, it was asymetric. ATT/TCI brings such speed. 802.11b carriers (Sprint, et al) are trying to bring in symetric 11 Mbps. The we have the local telcos where affordability seems to top out at T1 speeds (1.54Mbps). SDSL seems to top out there as well. Yes, I am not interested in asymetric services. Every study I have done indicates that most users would do more symetric usage if they can. Email is only an asymetric service if you allow spam. Otherwise, it is almost 1:1. Mailing lists are different, but an amazing number of people are not on any mailing list whatsoever. There are a finite number of programs that one can download. Most folks don't download and install software everyday. Also, now that the "new" is wearing off the web, you don't see as much random surf traffic there either. Instant messaging is usually person:person and IRC is falling out due to cracker problems. VOIP is also very symetric, even for teleconfrences. Usage is getting more purposful. Those who do not do "computing" for a living are limiting their Internet time in order to get real work done. As that occurs, usage should get more symetric. This becomes moreso if the user is running personal web pages (which most asymetric service providers do not allow) for a small business or cottage industry site. Another factor is that the rise in home LANs should actually reduce the need for high-speed access (the local server then plays "store and forward"). Personally, I'd like to see switched FDX 10baseT to the home. That's why I went to work for PacBell/ACN, in 1995. There was a chance of actually making that happen. Unfortunately, that window was closed by SBC in 1997 (We had 10K users online and 3 million homes passed). -- From: Larry Diffey [mailto:ldiffey@technologyforward.com] Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:35 PM The question then remains: What (in your opinion) constitutes broadband according to the services that have been promised to consumers but not yet delivered? Yes, I understand that it's not just speed, but take everything else into account when you consider the minimum speed.

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Drum roll, please! (Re: peering requirements (Re: DDOS anecdotes))
by Paul Vixie 06 Jul '01

06 Jul '01

> (randy, i'm betting that the number of respondants will be a single digit.) And the number is... 5. I'll continue this privately for a while.

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RE: Cogent Communications Info
by Marshall Eubanks 05 Jul '01

05 Jul '01

> IMHO multicast is a killer app, maybe THE killer app, for BLECs, as it conserves sparse bandwidth, fits well with the ethernet LANs typically used with BLECs for the "last mile," and as multicast peering is fairly straightfoward in the BLEC scenario. BLEC multicast also offers interesting opportunities for advertisers, as ads can target specific clusters of buidlings. We have convinced at least one BLEC of these advantages; others on NANOG should feel free to contact me off list for assistance in setting up multicast. Regards Marshall Eubanks Multicast Technologies, Inc. 10301 Democracy Lane, Suite 410 Fairfax, Virginia 22030 Phone : 703-293-9624 Fax : 703-293-9609 e-mail : tme(a)on-the-i.com http://www.on-the-i.com Test your network for multicast : http://www.multicasttech.com/mt/ Check the status of multicast in real time : http://www.multicasttech.com/status/index.html >The wierd thing here is that Williams doesn't have an overabundance of >peering either. They had been SBC's primary IP transit provider for their >DSL product, but rumor has it that SBC has selected other providers to >replace them. Perhaps Williams has massive transit contracts of their own, >and they are trying to cut their losses? Reselling transit for $50/meg is >better than not reselling it at all. > >I doubt Cogent's long term plans are dependent on Williams' firesale transit >pricing. > >- Daniel Golding > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of >> Vincent J. Bono >> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 10:03 PM >> To: David U. >> Cc: Nanog List >> Subject: Re: Cogent Communications Info >> >> >> >> Just to test them out we ordered their "private line" service (rather than >> the transit product) where it is $10/meg point to point, i.e. >> 100Mbps cross >> country is $1,000 per end per month. Its a tunneled IP product >> with an ATM >> infrastructure. >> >> They are already 90 days overdue and show no signs of delivery >> anytime soon. >> >> They are heavily involved with Williams for the ATM backbone and >> I know that >> Williams is selling IP transit to big telecom accounts for as little as >> $50/meg. Since they don't seem to have a lot of peering possibly they are >> filling in the gaps with Williams transit and coming up with a skewed cost >> model? >> >> -Vincent >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "David U." <davidu(a)everydns.net> >> To: "Nanog List" <nanog(a)merit.edu> >> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 9:40 PM >> Subject: Cogent Communications Info >> >> >> > >> > I have been reading about Cogent Communications recently and >> was wondering >> how >> > they can possibly offer 100mbps for $3000 ($1000 if you are an end-user, >> not a >> > service provider). It just seems too good to be true and we >> know how that >> > goes... >> > >> > Does anyone on NANOG have experience with them? >> > >> > Thoughts? >> > >> > For those who don't know: Cogent offers 100 mbps at $3000 to service >> provider >> > or 1000gbps for $20,000. http://www.cogentco.com has some info but not >> much. >> > >> > thanks, >> > -davidu >> > >> > Marshall Eubanks tme(a)21rst-century.com

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Cogent Communications Info
by David U. 05 Jul '01

05 Jul '01

I have been reading about Cogent Communications recently and was wondering how they can possibly offer 100mbps for $3000 ($1000 if you are an end-user, not a service provider). It just seems too good to be true and we know how that goes... Does anyone on NANOG have experience with them? Thoughts? For those who don't know: Cogent offers 100 mbps at $3000 to service provider or 1000gbps for $20,000. http://www.cogentco.com has some info but not much. thanks, -davidu

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Re: Cogent Communications Info
by Marshall Eubanks 05 Jul '01

05 Jul '01

> >I have been reading about Cogent Communications recently and was wondering how >they can possibly offer 100mbps for $3000 ($1000 if you are an end-user, not a >service provider). It just seems too good to be true and we know how that >goes... My understanding is that the peering is very underprovisioned, and that much of the network is not yet finished. Regards Marshall Eubanks > >Does anyone on NANOG have experience with them? > >Thoughts? > >For those who don't know: Cogent offers 100 mbps at $3000 to service provider >or 1000gbps for $20,000. http://www.cogentco.com has some info but not much. > >thanks, >-davidu > Marshall Eubanks tme(a)21rst-century.com

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Problem, what problem, we don't have problems
by Sean Donelan 05 Jul '01

05 Jul '01

While problems occur to everyone, the issue I've been fighting for years are vendors who at first deny they are having problems when you ask them about a problem. But, I suspect the analysts are correct, there is very little downside for a company to try to coverup problems. They can always apologize later, and it won't have any long-term effect. "Microsoft acknowledged in February that it had experienced problems with the servers that handle MSN Messenger, after denying for several days that problems existed. That outage came after a series of technical glitches and a hacker attack that prevented many people from accessing the company's Web site. The most recent glitch left many users frustrated, but some analysts doubted it would have any long-term effect on the company's efforts." http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010705/tc/msn_messenger_1.html

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broadband clarification
by Larry Diffey 05 Jul '01

05 Jul '01

Alright, for all of you who decided to lecture me on the definition of broadband and it's meaning in strict engineering terms, allow me to clarify (especially for the snotty ones). First off, words can have more than one meaning and that meaning should be taken in context. For example; I'm sure that none of you really think that a cable modem is a modem since it doesn't do AD/DA conversion but we all understand that it's simply a device used to connect a customer to a provider. After all "cable modem" is nothing more than a marketing term so that customers have a rough understanding of what the device does (not that they always understand that either). When I chose to use the term broadband as a reference point for my survey, I mistakenly thought that your brains would parse that out to mean "an minimum acceptable level of bandwidth for consumer internet traffic". If you consider that to be current DSL/Cable speeds fine. If you take that to mean some future technology using quantum mechanics fine. So, if you're going to lecture me on the definition of bandwidth then please stop using the term modem unless you're talking about an actual modem device. The question then remains: What (in your opinion) constitutes broadband according to the services that have been promised to consumers but not yet delivered? Yes, I understand that it's not just speed, but take everything else into account when you consider the minimum speed. Feel free to be immature enough to flame me for my lecture. Larry Diffey

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Re: broadband clarification
by brandon＠rd.bbc.co.uk 05 Jul '01

05 Jul '01

> I'm sure that none of you really think that a cable modem > is a modem Correct, we know it is > since it doesn't do AD/DA conversion but we all understand > that it's simply a device used to connect a customer to a provider. No, it's a device that converts your data into an analogue signal (modem) suitable for carriage on broadband plant (cable) > After all "cable modem" is nothing more than a marketing term so that > customers have a rough understanding of what the device does (not that > they always understand that either). No it's an actual device that performs the function correctly denoted by it's name. Broadband is the marketing term. > The question then remains: What (in your opinion) constitutes broadband > according to the services that have been promised to consumers but not > yet delivered? The rates obtained from current day broadband systems (e.g. cable modems & *dsl) are normally what is being referred to by the contraction "broadband" brandon

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