December 2001 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Single-vendor vs. best-of-breed network
by Pete Kruckenberg 21 Dec '01

21 Dec '01

I'm trying to make an informed decision whether moving to a multi-vendor best-of-breed makes sense for my organization. This is obviously a complex question, so I am hoping to tap some (figurative) "grey hair" advise from real-world experiences for the general areas I should focus on in making/justifying a decision. What, if anything, makes a multi-vendor (wide-area) network successful and worth the risks over the "safe" single-vendor network nobody gets fired for buying (you can probably guess what vendor Powers my network now). What are the (un)quantifiable metrics/ROI/arguments you've used to justify being single-vendor or best-of-breed? The single-vendor argument seems to primarily focus on customer support (no finger-pointing, no confusion who to call) and single skill-set (leverage training, hire rote technicians) advantages. The multi-vendor faction seems to focus on best features/performance, best price, and keeping vendors honest. What are the real factors and what is FUD for someone who has been on both sides? Personal experience, pointers to case studies, (vendor) white papers, etc on both sides of the argument are appreciated. Thanks. Pete.

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Re: The season: CHRISTMAS
by Gregory Hicks 21 Dec '01

21 Dec '01

You know, and this is very much tongue in cheek, this thread is starting to remind me of the joke about the office manager that trys to set up a Christmas party, starts making changes to accomodate everyone, and ends up with a nervous breakdown with the company going out of business, ... Just a joke, People! Best wishes for a very merry Christmas and ... Regards, Gregory Hicks > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:27:15 -0500 > From: Richard Irving <rirving(a)onecall.net> > > Hey, what about "Yule" ? > > ;) > > Randy Bush wrote: > > > > and hope all had a reknewing ramhadan with family. and others a warm > > chanukah. > > aside from the usual sad knee-jerk intolerant racist, > > two friends reminded me of kwanzaa, of which i know embarrassingly little, > > so see <http://www.afrocentricnews.com/html/kwanza.htm> > > and queen lucy reminded me that today is the winter (for northerners) > > solstice holiday for pagans and hippies > > > > randy --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory Hicks | Principal Systems Engineer Cadence Design Systems | Direct: 408.576.3609 555 River Oaks Pkwy M/S 6B1 | Fax: 408.894.3479 San Jose, CA 95134 | Internet: ghicks(a)cadence.com "The trouble with doing anything right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was." When a team of dedicated individuals makes a commitment to act as one... the sky's the limit. Policy: ASCII/text attchmnts alway read. PDF maybe read. Others, by necessity, may be ignored. Don't take it personally, it's a time and compatability issue.

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NANOG 24 Call for Presentations
by Susan Harris 21 Dec '01

21 Dec '01

Just a friendly reminder that proposals for the Miami NANOG are due on January 2. We're especially interested in hearing from people who'd like to give a tutorial. See you soon! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS * * NANOG 24 * * February 10-12, 2002 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The North American Network Operators' Group (NANOG) will hold its 24th meeting February 10-12, 2002, in Miami, Florida. The meeting will be hosted by Terremark Worldwide. Registration begins January 2. NANOG conferences provide a forum for the coordination and dissemination of technical information related to large-scale (i.e., national/international) Internet backbone networking technologies and operational practices. Meetings are held three times each year, and include two days of short presentations, plus afternoon/evening tutorial sessions. The meetings are informal, with an emphasis on relevance to current backbone engineering practices. NANOG conferences draw over 600 participants, mainly consisting of engineering staff from national service providers, and members of the research and education community. <p> The meeting will be held at the Hotel Inter-Continental Miami. For more information about NANOG meetings, schedules, and logistics, see: http://www.nanog.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS NANOG invites presentations on backbone engineering, coordination, and research topics. Presentations should highlight issues relating to technology already deployed or soon to be deployed in core Internet backbones and exchange points. Previous meetings have included presentations on: - Backbone traffic engineering - Inter-provider security and routing protocol authentication - Routing scalability in backbone infrastructures - Security issues for the Internet core - Routing policy specification and backbone router configuration - Building large-scale measurement infrastructure - Cooperative inter-provider caching - Alternatives to hot-potato routing - Recommendations on queue management and congestion avoidance - Experience with differentiated services - Inter-domain multicast deployment - Backbone network failure analysis Tutorials have covered topics such as: - BGP case studies - Tools and techniques for ISP security - External route selection - IP multicast technologies ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HOW TO PRESENT Submit a detailed abstract or outline describing the presentation in email to nanog-support(a)nanog.org. The deadline for proposals is January 2, 2002. While the majority of speaking slots will be filled by January 2, a limited number of slots will be available after that date for topics that are exceptionally timely and important. Submissions will be reviewed by the NANOG Program Committee, and presenters will be notified of acceptance by January 16, 2002. NANOG also welcomes suggestions/recommendations for tutorials, panels and other presentation topics. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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The season: CHRISTMAS
by Jan-Ahrent Czmok 21 Dec '01

21 Dec '01

Before it get's forgotten (and please no MEE 2) : Merry christmas to everyone, may everybody have a merry christmas and a happy new year. --jan -- Jan-Ahrent Czmok email: czmok(a)gatel.net Senior Network Engineer voice: +49-69-299896-0 Global Access Telecommunications, Inc. fax : +49-69-299896-40 internet solutions for business www : www.gatel.net

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RE: AT&T Broadband
by Kevin Gannon 21 Dec '01

21 Dec '01

Maybe I should ask a question in reverse, many of you operate a public network. How does your support process differ, have you ever tried ringing your own front line support desk with a problem ? How many of you provide direct access to the NOC to particular customers ? How do you decide a customer should have direct NOC contact ? With all the talk about AT&T I decided to ring my own support desk. We dont operate a public network so the call volume should be low and there should always be at least one tier 3 support person present. Let me just say it was interesting...... Regards, Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Miles Fidelman Sent: 21 December 2001 11:39 To: Miles Fidelman; nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: AT&T Broadband On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Peter Galbavy wrote: > This is probably because the people you talk to are employed by an 'out > sourced' call centre company who has at some point in the past sat down with > their client and built a call flow chart with all the things that these > people should say, ask and do. good point - though, of course, one would expect better from AT&T I remember the legal process for transferring ownership of the system ffrom MediaOne to AT&T - AT&T swore up and down how they were going to bring so much more technical, operational, managerial, and financial expertise and strength to the system than MediaOne ever could - what a hoot I guess I'm still spoiled from all those years I spent at BBN - building and supporting large networks for various government agencies and corporations - folks who actually cared about building serious network support organizations. Sigh.. Miles ************************************************************************** The Center for Civic Networking PO Box 600618 Miles R. Fidelman, President & Newtonville, MA 02460-0006 Director, Municipal Telecommunications Strategies Program 617-558-3698 fax: 617-630-8946 mfidelman(a)civicnet.org http://civic.net/ccn.html Information Infrastructure: Public Spaces for the 21st Century Let's Start With: Internet Wall-Plugs Everywhere Say It Often, Say It Loud: "I Want My Internet!" ************************************************************************** ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. For more information contact postmaster(a)lancomms.ie phone + 353 1 4093000 fax + 353 1 4093001 **********************************************************************

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Re: AT&T Broadband
by Christopher Schulte 21 Dec '01

21 Dec '01

At 09:45 AM 12/18/2001 -0600, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: >Howdy, > > Anyone know what's up with AT&T Broadband in Minnesota? They > appear to be blocking *everything* from 24/8 to 24/8 that isn't >port 25/tcp 110/tcp 80/tcp 443/tcp, or icmp. Everything else is being >dropped into a growing black hole.. Please clarify: You live on 24/8 as an ATT broadband subscriber. You try to communicate with another ATT broadband subscriber on 24/8. Your outbound packets to said subscriber on 24/8 are dropped unless destination port is one of tcp ports 25, 110, 80, 443 or icmp. The rest of your outbound packets to the internet as a whole are forwarded as usual. Is that a reasonable re-wording of your original post? > Thanks, > Matthew S. Hallacy -c

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Automated DLR conflict detection
by Sean Donelan 21 Dec '01

21 Dec '01

The Wall Street Journal had an article Thursday about the problems executives with large multi-national companies are having re-engineering their telecommunication networks. None of this should come as a surprise to long-time readers of any of the networking lists. Just in Case, Many Firms Work to Set Up Redundant Telecommunications Systems By DENNIS K. BERMAN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL Thursday December 20 2001 John Smiley typically wears suits. But as the executive in charge of telecommunications for Lufthansa Systems' North American operations, he recently put on jeans and work boots to inch his way into a dirty train tunnel beneath New York City's Grand Central Terminal. His mission: to inspect new fiber-optic cables that snake through abandoned gas pipes, ensuring that they are running on a safe, separate path from a set of nearby fibers carrying the German airline's reservations data. I've done something similar in the past. But it doesn't solve the problem. Even if the sales person promises you diversity, even if you physically inspect every meter of fiber, even if you pay more, after six months your network won't be diverse. On a long-term basis, how do you check carriers are keeping their promises? Are there any commercial products which let subscribers automatically check DLR's from carriers for changes and conflicts? Since DLR's only show the active components in a circuit, has anyone developed a product to check for passive and location risks?

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RE: AT&T Broadband
by Rowland, Alan D 20 Dec '01

20 Dec '01

That assumes that every time someone with clue calls it's about a 'tier three' issue. There is no perfect solution other than patience, and building a good 'outside channels' contact list :) Just my 2¢ ___________________________________ Alan Rowland "no warranty expressed or implied, use at your own risk, may be terminated at any time without notice" -----Original Message----- From: John A. Tamplin [mailto:jat@liveonthenet.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:10 PM To: Simon Higgs Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: RE: AT&T Broadband On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Simon Higgs wrote: <snip rant> I understand your point, but for every person who calls and who truly does know what they are talking about there are probably 3 or 4 who just think they do. You don't want to pay big bucks for top technical people to answer the front-line calls, and those people hate when something gets passed to them anyway. So you have minimally capable people answering the phone who are told not to transfer the call to the next level until they check all the idiot things that could be wrong (which probably gets a large percentage of their calls). It would be nice however, if after one call when you prove that you do know what you are talking about you get a different number to call which bypasses the "is your computer plugged in" people. John A. Tamplin jat(a)jaet.org 770/436-5387 HOME 4116 Manson Ave 770/431-9459 FAX Smyrna, GA 30082-3723

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OT: Lost job? Need help? NANOG Recruiting BOF!
by Timothy Brown 20 Dec '01

20 Dec '01

Hey, folks. It's pretty much a fact of life that layoffs are evident. They've happened to a lot of us already, as I know from talking to many people on this list and elsewhere. The market's terrible, and I know that there are a lot of people surfing through job sites not really finding anything. Those of you that are in this boat like I am, it might make more sense to network with each other - as a result, i'd like to start a recruiting BOF for people in the NANOG circle. I'd like to suggest as a starting point that interested parties looking for a job send mail to me privately with a brief overview of your qualifications and a link to a place for your resume. I'll create a webpage and mailing list with this information before the holidays, and i'll send a summary to nanog containing the relevant information for both employers and candidates. Please also include what type of job/ideal function you'd like to be in, and your key area of expertise. If you're an employer needing to be connected with candidates, or you know of any recruiting firms or friends in that business who are having trouble finding qualified network engineering, operations, or design staff with the flood of people in the marketplace, please also send me mail so I can add that information to the list. Thanks! Tim

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OT: Looking for AOL/ANS BigDial contact
by Charles Sprickman 19 Dec '01

19 Dec '01

Hi, I apologize for asking here, but if there are any AOL folks that deal with the USR/3Com dialup gear I have someone over on the usr-tc list that needs a hand with getting a nasty bug resolved in their current (and past) DSP code. Brick wall at 3Com. And if Earthlink (ex-mindspring) is still running these boxes, someone there would be helpful as well. Sorry for the interruption. Charles | Charles Sprickman | Internet Channel | INCH System Administration Team | (212)243-5200 | spork(a)inch.com | access(a)inch.com

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