December 2000 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Re: Packet Loss
by Steven M. Bellovin 15 Dec '00

15 Dec '00

In message <Pine.LNX.4.30.0012150921140.15394-100000(a)grant.liveonthenet.com>, " John R. Grant" writes: >Yesterday, Roeland Meyer wrote: >> I know for certain that it dates back to the pain-frame daze and originally >> refered to 9600 baud open-reel tape <snip> > ><cringe> >that would be 9600 bit per inch GCR format 9-track tape, don't you think? ></cringe> They didn't have nearly that density -- when I heard the phrase, it was 800 or 1600 bits per linear inch (1600' reels), with 8 bits (plus parity) across. And 200 bpi 6-track tapes were still in use, though being phased out. --Steve Bellovin

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RE: Packet Loss
by Muir, Ronald 15 Dec '00

15 Dec '00

That's mylar punched paper tape for bootstraps. :-----Original Message----- :From: Hugh Irvine [mailto:hugh@open.com.au] :Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 11:51 AM :To: tme(a)21rst-century.com; Marshall Eubanks; Valdis.Kletnieks(a)vt.edu; :nanog@merit.edu :Subject: Re: Packet Loss : : : : :Hello all - : :> :> Real Men use punched paper tape to store programs and :load the boot :> block, after toggling :> its binary location on the system console register :) The :Gods Who Walk :> Among Us program in machine :> code by toggling it in at the console. :> :> (I still have some punched paper tape somewhere. I remember feeling :> impressed when I graduated to :> punched cards. They didn't tend to crack if you had a string :of all bits :> set to one.) :> :> On the other hand, I did tens of thousands of lines of code on IBM :> punched cards and I never :> once recall a bug caused by a chad, hanging or otherwise. :> : :Further to my previous post, we used to use punched paper tape :as the absolute :fall-back to boot the acquisition sytem (we didn't take disks :to sea back then). : :We had a heck of a time keeping the tapes dry.... : :;-) : :Hugh : :-- :Radiator: the most portable, flexible and configurable RADIUS server :anywhere. Available on *NIX, *BSD, Windows 95/98/2000, NT, MacOS X. :- :Nets: internetwork inventory and management - graphical, extensible, :flexible with hardware, software, platform and database independence. : : :

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Re: NATs *ARE* evil!
by Jeff Mcadams 15 Dec '00

15 Dec '00

Also sprach David R Huberman >> (it has been a royal pain to get anyone on the phone at ARIN in the >> past) >That is a patently false statement. >Since late 1997, ARIN staff have answered the phone on the first ring, >generally. You'll never get a busy signal or a complicated phone tree. >Stating that ARIN doesn't answer the phone is so wildly incorrect it >makes me wonder why you would say such a thing. And who on earth are *you* to tell *me* what *my* experience with ARIN has been. I *have* had a nightmare of a time getting anyone from ARIN on the phone in the past, and for you to say that you haven't doesn't invalidate my experiences. Perhaps I haven't found the same phone numbers that you have or something, but my experience has been that I have *always* had a hard time getting anyone from ARIN on the phone...shoot...first time I wanted to try, I couldn't even find a phone number on their web site to even *attempt* it...this has since changed, but ARIN does have a history of being *extremely* difficult to deal with. It seems they are attempting to improve this. They needed to. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm(a)iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456

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RE: Packet Loss
by Roeland Meyer 15 Dec '00

15 Dec '00

> From: Scott Bradner [mailto:sob@harvard.edu] > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 10:52 AM > > > Can we call on the Avian Carrier RFC here? Packet Loss may > take on a whole > > new meaning here... > > especially for the bulk transfer mode Never under-estimate the bandwidth of a mini-van filled with DLT tapes, on the freeway at 65 mph. - updated to current - rmeyer - original author unknown

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Re: Packet Loss
by David Lesher 14 Dec '00

14 Dec '00

It's distressing to realize there are at least three things in my message the vast majority here will likely look at with a ?huh?: Trailblazers 9 Track tape ftp by mail Sigh..... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz(a)nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

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OT: pagers/phones
by Charles Sprickman 14 Dec '00

14 Dec '00

Hi, Is anyone using TAP-based paging software with any of the major two-way pager companies or any cell phones that have paging features? Specifically we were looking at PageMart 2-ways, SprintPCS, and Nextel. Any other suggestions are more than welcome. The only thing we are NOT interested in is any email-based paging (doesn't work too well if the internet is 'broken'). Qpage.org lists all three of those providers as having a TAP number, but they all deny any knowledge of such a thing. We are dropping PageNet, as they have no unlimited plans, yanked service without notice, and charge $.25/page past the limit. Thanks in advance, and apologies if this is not an "operational" issue, Charles | Charles Sprickman | Internet Channel | INCH System Administration Team | (212)243-5200 | spork(a)inch.com | access(a)inch.com

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Re: Packet Loss
by Steven M. Bellovin 14 Dec '00

14 Dec '00

In message <200012142041.eBEKf0CW232932(a)black-ice.cc.vt.edu>, Valdis.Kletnieks@ vt.edu writes: > >--==_Exmh_1384746784P >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >On Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:21:42 PST, Roeland Meyer <rmeyer(a)mhsc.com> said: >> > From: Scott Bradner [mailto:sob@harvard.edu] >> > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 10:52 AM >> > >> > > Can we call on the Avian Carrier RFC here? Packet Loss may >> > take on a whole >> > > new meaning here... > >At first reading, I saw 'Avian Carrier KFC'. > >> Never under-estimate the bandwidth of a mini-van filled with DLT tapes, on >> the freeway at 65 mph. >> - updated to current - rmeyer - original author unknown > >Andy Tanenbaum, "Computer Networks", if I remember correctly. *Much* older -- I first heard it in 1969, and I don't think it was orginal then... --Steve Bellovin

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RE: Packet Loss
by Roeland Meyer 14 Dec '00

14 Dec '00

> From: Steven M. Bellovin [mailto:smb@research.att.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 1:14 PM > >> Never under-estimate the bandwidth of a mini-van filled > with DLT tapes, on > >> the freeway at 65 mph. > >> - updated to current - rmeyer - original author unknown > > > >Andy Tanenbaum, "Computer Networks", if I remember correctly. > > *Much* older -- I first heard it in 1969, and I don't think it was > orginal then... I know for certain that it dates back to the pain-frame daze and originally refered to 9600 baud open-reel tape. It was a true anacdote involving a chevy impala stationwagon and they needed to get a massive amount of IBM 360 data, from somewhere in Los Angeles to Sacramento. One of the alternatives was unreliable 300 baud links (1200 baud wouldn't work for some reason). They chose to use the chevy, they beat the time by days. I was an MTS-III, at /HAC/C&DP/LB (pre-GM), when I heard it the first time. I am amazed that, that far back (20 years), I remember that much detail. The context I heard it in was that we had a similar problem getting some data from behind the "cactus curtain", in Tuscon, AZ. If you want to transfer a multi-TB database, a short distance, it still holds true.

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Kysi Ferul Plague
by Karyn Ulriksen 14 Dec '00

14 Dec '00

Is anybody else being plagued my a kysi ferul [redwingblakburdz(a)yahoo.com]? This person apparently latched onto my name thru the Nanog list. Any feedback should be offlist so we aren't petting it's ego... Thanx --------------------------------------------------------------------- Best regards, Karyn Ulriksen Director of Network Operations PublicHost, A SiteStream Company 22 Mauchly, Suite 200 Irvine, California 92618 USA Phone: (949) 743-2000 email: kulriksen(a)publichost.com URL: http://www.publichost.com ===========================================

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Re: Packet Loss
by Tony Rall 14 Dec '00

14 Dec '00

> I'll speculate that it occurs when packets destined for a destination do > not get there. Most people see it via dropped ping packets.. What ping really tells you is that either the packets from A to B are being lost or those from B to A are being lost. From the information that ping presents there is no way to know which direction (and the routing may well be asymmetric) is choking, nor if the problem is at one of the end points. While I really like to use pings (with at least 100 samples) for testing round trip packet loss, there are situations where it will give incorrect results. If the packet loss is data, packet size, or protocol dependent, ping probably won't tell you about the performance to be expected for the application that you're really interested in. On top of that, some systems will filter or throttle ICMP - this really distorts the results. Tony Rall

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