May 1998 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Re: NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules
by Hank Nussbacher 18 May '98

18 May '98

At 02:04 PM 5/17/98 -0500, Jim Fleming wrote: NANOG is supposed to be be a "controlled" list - can't the owner remove posting privs for Jim? -Hank > >NANOG is supported by Merit > and Merit is supported by the NSF > and the NSF is supported by the U.S. Government > and the U.S. Government is supported by U.S. taxpayers... > >This makes NANOG conversations about Internet Governance >topics subject to the Ex-Parte rules of the U.S. Government. > >I will try to include the right CCs so that the NTIA's web site >can be up to date. > >http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/ > > >- >Jim Fleming >Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net >IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race >AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM > >

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Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks?
by shields＠crosslink.net 18 May '98

18 May '98

In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.980517144158.13470A-100000(a)chele.cais.com>, Blake Willis <blakew(a)cais.net> wrote: > IMHO every dialup customer, the vast majority of which use Windows 95, > should have their machines set up to get the DNS servers, routing info, > etc. from the terminal server they dial in to. This would be ok if the dialup users used DHCP, but instead they only seem to be able to use the layering violation that Microsoft calls a PPP "extension". -- Shields, CrossLink.

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RE: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks?
by Jim Fleming 18 May '98

18 May '98

On Friday, May 15, 1998 11:57 PM, Chris A. Icide[SMTP:chris@abs.net] wrote: @At 08:59 PM 5/15/98 -0400, Kim Hubbard wrote: @>> @>> Jeremiah Kristal wrote: @ @<snip> @ @>> ARIN has made a slight change to make it easier for them to make more @>> money by allowing anyone to register for IPs. They will assign a /20 and @>> reserve the adjacent /20... @>> @ @<snip> @ @>ARIN just can't win with some people :-) If we don't change policy, we're @>evil....if we do, we're greedy. *sigh* @> @ @If I remember correctly (someone correct me if I'm wrong here), ARIN is a @Non-profit organization. This classification generally means something to @the effect that they can't make more money. @ It is not clear that ARIN can continue to qualify as a non-profit company because they are engaged in an activity that other companies carry on for-profit. Also, as you can see here, break-even does not define non-profit. http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/index.html http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/bus-orgs.html @@@@ http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/bl-req.html "No part of its net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual and it may not be organized for profit or organized to engage in an activity ordinarily carried on for profit (even if the business is operated on a cooperative basis or produces only sufficient income to be self-sustaining)." @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @So, if they begin taking in more revenues due to an increased use of thier @services, they must either spend those revenues, or reduce the price of the @services. @ @Of course increased usage might mean that they may have to add more @hardware/Software/People, etc. @ @<here is where I may be seriously wrong, however....> @ @I do believe that members have a say into how this is resolved, by acting @through one of the governing boards? @ @ @-Chris @ I suggest that you review some actual results from APNIC which ARIN was supposedly modeled from. ARIN seems reluctant to post any real financial information. http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/resource_status.htm#c4_1 http://teckla.apnic.net/annual_reports/1997/financial_status.htm#c3_3 After reviewing this information it should be clear that a non-profit can spend a lot of money on salaries, travel and other expenses (such as $50,000 to the IANA) to offset income. Also, in the case of APNIC, money was spent to subsidize the APRICOT trade-show and people in the Registry Industry were paid via that vehicle, yet APNIC claims it is non-profit (or at least it was). APNIC is now planning to move to Australia and it appears will be for-profit. If you would like to make an estimate of ARIN's revenues here is more information. @http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/imr/ @ARIN Status Report @------------------ @ @ January February March @ @ /24's Issued 2176 3265 5547 @ ASNs Issued 26 60 85 @ Estimated First Quarter Totals /24s - 10,988 - $858,437 ASNs - 171 - $85,500 Total Estimated Revenue - $943,937 This is based on 32 /24s for $2,500 and $500 per ASN. No $1,000 membership fees are included. With 16 employees, this amounts to $58,996 revenue per employee. Assuming no growth, that is $235,984 per employee on an annual basis. ===== - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

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NANOG and the USG Ex-Parte Rules
by Jim Fleming 17 May '98

17 May '98

NANOG is supported by Merit and Merit is supported by the NSF and the NSF is supported by the U.S. Government and the U.S. Government is supported by U.S. taxpayers... This makes NANOG conversations about Internet Governance topics subject to the Ex-Parte rules of the U.S. Government. I will try to include the right CCs so that the NTIA's web site can be up to date. http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/ - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

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RE: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks?
by Sean M. Doran 17 May '98

17 May '98

| ISPs should be | advising their customers to be prepared for renumbering since it is in the | customer's best interests. One of the ironies in many of these discussions is that ISPs are very keen on not having to renumber their customers if they themselves have to switch providers, therefore they should get sizable address allocations that are liklier to be portable. Yet, any customer of theirs is then instantly in the same position: if an end user wants to switch ISPs, unless it has portable address space, the end user has to renumber. Few tears are cried here over that (modulo Eliot Lear). That said, I see no reason to be fair and even-handed just for the sake of seeming to be "nice". Otherwise, we degenerate into Bill Manning's "constant renumbering" Internet [*], running out of addresses through allocation of too-large blocks, or reversing CIDR and putting an end to hierarchical routing [**]. Therefore, a minimum allocation unit, which has a "price", either in terms of actual dollars paid to a RIPE-like registry or in terms of a set of requirements set out by such a registry (or both), where the price is unattractive to end users is a reasonable solution. Sean. P.S.: [*] one fun and useful thing to think about is what would break if every device in the Internet (routers and hosts) were to be shut down and brought back up, with or without new addresses. [**] hierarchical routing is the only known means of maintaining adequate routing in an enormous growing network.

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RE: Topology (Flow chart) drawing program
by Michael J. Freeman 17 May '98

17 May '98

Visio 4. -----Original Message----- From: Geoff White [SMTP:geoffw@precipice.v-site.net] Sent: Sunday, May 17, 1998 1:58 PM To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Topology (Flow chart) drawing program Does anyone know of a flow chart program that I can use to diagram parts of my network in ASCII. (i.e to e-mail a description to someonme) I should be able to type in a description (that shows up in the block) and then specify links to other blocks, the program outputs an ASCII block diagram suitable for putting into documents. Im sure someone must have written something like this when they were back in undergrad :) geoff white

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Re: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks?
by shields＠crosslink.net 17 May '98

17 May '98

In article <199805171722.KAA25313(a)mail.nwlink.com>, "Michael K. Smith" <mksmith(a)nwlink.com> wrote: > Let's not forget to mention the 10,000 dialup customers who have to > change their DNS numbers. We have sent snail-mail and e-mail over and > over again, yet only about 1/3 of that 10k have actually made the change > away from the old numbers. How many of those customers do you think > we'll lose when we officially turn off the old ip's? It's very ugly, but I put in two /32 routes internally for my old resolver addresses in Net-99 space... this keeps them reachable from the inside. If they ever get reused, I just won't have connectivity to those two hosts. I think now that it is a mistake to ever give out resolver IPs from NP space. If you don't have your own space, use 1918 space. -- Shields, CrossLink.

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Topology (Flow chart) drawing program
by Geoff White 17 May '98

17 May '98

Does anyone know of a flow chart program that I can use to diagram parts of my network in ASCII. (i.e to e-mail a description to someonme) I should be able to type in a description (that shows up in the block) and then specify links to other blocks, the program outputs an ASCII block diagram suitable for putting into documents. Im sure someone must have written something like this when they were back in undergrad :) geoff white

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RE: NANOG and ARIN
by Jim Fleming 17 May '98

17 May '98

On Sunday, May 17, 1998 1:39 PM, Stephen Sprunk[SMTP:sprunk@paranet.com] wrote: @Jim Fleming wrote: @> How come all of these discussions about ARIN are not on the ARIN @> mailing list(s) ? @ @Because the bulk of people on naipr unsubscribed to get away from you, @and nanog is currently the only (while inappropriate) mailing list with @a significant audience. @ Are you saying that people discussing technical topics are really more concerned about the audience watching than the people involved in the discussion ? That sounds like marketing as opposed to a discussion. - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

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RE: ARIN allocating /20 netblocks?
by Jim Fleming 17 May '98

17 May '98

On Sunday, May 17, 1998 5:56 AM, Michael Dillon[SMTP:michael@memra.com] wrote: @On Sun, 17 May 1998, Michael K. Smith wrote: @ @> Let's not forget to mention the 10,000 dialup customers who have to @> change their DNS numbers. We have sent snail-mail and e-mail over and @> over again, yet only about 1/3 of that 10k have actually made the change @> away from the old numbers. How many of those customers do you think @> we'll lose when we officially turn off the old ip's? @ @IMHO every dialup customer from every ISP in the world should use @192.168.254.1 for their DNS address and this number should be hard coded @as the default in all client software. Then this problem would go away. @ In doing that people would be moving in a direction toward IPv8. In IPv8, some IP addresses are viewed as "opaque handles" which are more like virtual addresses in a large distributed computer system. They can also be viewed as "locally-routed, specific-service, addresses". The following RFC 1918 IPv4 address ranges play a key role in the IPv8 0:0.x.x.x.x address space. User - DHCP Sub-Nets - 0:0.10.x.x.x Group - ISP Infrastructure - 0:0.172.16.0.0-0:0.172.31.0.0 World - Inter-ISP Links and Services - 0:0.192.168.1.x-0:0.192.168.254.x - Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.net IPv8 - Designed for the Rest of the Human Race AM Radio Stations ---> http://www.DOT.AM

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