October 1996 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Re: Creating exchanges
by bmanning＠ISI.EDU 12 Oct '96

12 Oct '96

As long as there is still some life left in this thread, Does anyone have updates/corrections to: http://www.isi.edu/div7/ra/naps.html -- --bill

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Internet: Getting more money ...??
by Srinivasarao Mulugu 12 Oct '96

12 Oct '96

a news excerpt from y'day.... ========================================================= Mulugu Srinivasarao Tel : 703/904-2013 SprintLink Engineering Fax : 703/904-2292 Sprint, GSD Bldg. ------------------ attachment ---------------------------- Clinton Seeks Upgraded Internet President Clinton is emphasizing the high-tech road of the future on the campaign trail today. During visits to Knoxville, Tenn., and Dayton, Ohio, Clinton proposed a $100 million plan to expand the reach of the Internet. ``It would lead to an explosion in learning,'' Clinton told a campaign rally in downtown Dayton. In Knoxville, Clinton said he wants to see the day ``when computers are as much a part of classrooms as blackboards.'' The proposal includes giving free Internet service to schools and libraries and upgrading the Internet to make it 100 to 1,000 times faster than the existing system. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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NANOG Registration List
by Pam Ciesla 12 Oct '96

12 Oct '96

Has been updated on the Web at http://www.nanog.org. If your name is not on the list and should be please let me know. Thanks Pam Ciesla

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Cisco's AIP vs HSSI
by Pritish Shah 12 Oct '96

12 Oct '96

Can anyone tell me which is better and why? Is there any resources out there that will help me in that decision. Pritish

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Re: Intra/Inter - was Inet-II
by Sanjay Dani 12 Oct '96

12 Oct '96

> From: swolff(a)cisco.com (Stephen Wolff) > Subject: Re: Intra/Inter - was Inet-II > *Whenever* there is public funding of *any* activity, an AUP is attached to > oulaw the misuse of taxpayer money. Internet II is not exempt. I see in today's SF Chronicle that Cisco is one of the promoters of the Internet-II project along with Stanford, other universities and companies. Perhaps you could start by convincing Cisco mgmt and save cisco shareholders' money. > Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:29:02 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Robert E. Seastrom" <rs(a)bifrost.seastrom.com> > Would it be impolite to point out that if a $100M R&D effort would > create the technology for a 2-3 order of magnitude speed-up, that the > private sector would be falling all over themselves right this second > to make it happen? Unrelated but see above the support of Cisco, Sprint etc. The same article quoted someone at EFF that there is no need for a new Internet as the current one can be made faster by using cable modems. Hmmm.. Sanjay.

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Re: Intra/Inter - was Inet-II
by Vadim Antonov 12 Oct '96

12 Oct '96

alan(a)mindvision.com (Alan Hannan) wrote: >> Nobody cares about AUPs in leaf networks. AUPs in transit backbones >> are evil. Or everybody already forgot NSFNET AUP and the tons of >> related hackery in routing policies all around the world? > The interesting thing to me below is the assumption that there is > an inherent difference between a transit backbone and a private > leaf network. Hm. Hm again. Should i start explaining why AUP-type traffic restrictions (i.e. choice of different paths depending on who communicates with whom, or all-out limited connectivity) are different from peer/transit routing policy restrictions generally found in commercial networks which are not interested in AUPs but rather in delivering bits efficiently? Then, any AUP related to government funding is not going to be traffic path-based; but rather content-based, which makes it unenforceable by means other than financial coercion. Those of us who remember how it worked with NSFNET would rather not have that experience again. (Yes, and if you think the government wouldn't drag politics in it you're mistaken -- i remember that getting traffic from USSR to be allowed to NSFNET wasn't all that trivial; and thanks to Steve G.). >I believe Manning makes a good point that an AUP is inherent to a >network. Sorry, not. As is Internet is mostly AUP-free, meaning that nobody cares about content or what providers do with traffic engineering. > We have seen an increase in the discussions of AUP with respect to > backbones (MCI/SL/UU). The discussions regarding dumping defaults > and forced routing to destinations not advertised all centered > around AUP. Please, do not confuse AUPs and routing policies. Those are very different beasts. AUPs are content-based. Routing policies are purely traffic engineering. Routing policies are not a good tool to implement AUPs, and in fact attempts to do that lead to very kludgy solutions, and leave lots of loopholes anyway besides creating enormous headaches to engineering of commercial carriers who are forced one way or another to peer with AUP-full networks by the same government. We've already got NAP peering requirement mess, thank you. > While the case is there, it is not that strong. I think Sagan calls it a >pseudoscientific argument.... I'm not sure why you want to apply scientific criteria to politics or drag in the ghost of Carl. Politic science is an oxymoron, just like Christian Science. It isn't any worse to tote an ohmmeter as a sacred device for measuring purity of devoted than to look for rigid rules in political world governed by emotions. > Don't fool yourself. The I-2 is not the "faster Internet". It is > a tool to force those pesky free-thinkers to shut up. > Maybe. More likely it's a tool to give Higher Education > institutions a QOS independant from the commercial world (also cheaper). Cheaper? Have you _ever_ seen anything done by the government that is cheaper after you count all hidden costs? If it really can do things better than market why not start from more worthy causes like government supplying the foodstuffs? Oh, sorry, history is already clear on what happens then, right? Few dozen millions dead in Ukrain. I guess people allow goverments to play with networks and stuff just because it is not as important as food. That still does not change the principle. > I don't blindly accept the altruistic guise under which it was presented, > but I do think there are sig. other reasons beyond government > control. Aw, how cute. Sounds like first-grader's taking about Granddad Lenin. Surely smart grown-up people up will show us the Only And True Way, they sure know better how to spend our money. --vadim

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Re: Internet II is coming...
by salo＠msc.edu 12 Oct '96

12 Oct '96

> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:16:53 -0700 > From: Vadim Antonov <avg(a)quake.net> > To: kwe(a)6SigmaNets.com, swolff(a)cisco.com > Subject: Re: Internet II is coming... > Cc: mathis(a)psc.edu, nanog(a)merit.edu > [...] > Oh, no, not AUP again! > > What a mess. I don't think so, really. This time around, the AUP will not be at the functional core of the Internet, plus most people will be on the AUP-free side of things. I suspect the Internet II AUP will affect the Internet at large only slightly more than does the vBNS AUP. -tjs

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RE: Internet II is coming...
by Jim Browning 12 Oct '96

12 Oct '96

Please accept my apologies, Robert. I didn't notice your message was not copied to the group, and I would never intentionally post a private message to a public forum without prior permission. -- Jim ---------- From: Robert E. Seastrom[SMTP:rs@bifrost.seastrom.com] Sent: Friday, October 11, 1996 5:49 AM Apparently Jim doesn't appreciate the fact that it's bad form to repost people's private email messages by way of responding to it in a public forum.

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RE: Internet II is coming...
by Jim Browning 12 Oct '96

12 Oct '96

>From: Robert E. Seastrom[SMTP:rs@bifrost.seastrom.com] >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 1996 6:21 AM > >2) Copper pairs to the telco (both in the POTS scenario and the >D4-framed HDSL DS1 with a channel bank scenario) suit my purposes for >switched voice just fine. The concept of getting phone service from >an organization like a cable company or an ISP kinda leaves me cold -- >I want my phones to be more reliabe than that. What is your motive in >proposing to fix something that ain't broke? Consolidating a customer's investment in local loop circuits enables the purchase of a larger pipe ($$ leverage), and enables that circuit to be used more effectively by taking advantage of the fact that each service is not used 100% of the time. The effect of this is to encourage broader use of higher-capacity local loops, thereby cranking up the average speed of 'last mile' connections to the Internet. This makes the introduction of new applications more viable, which in turn helps to feed the continued growth of the Internet, which I consider A Good Thing. But I suspect you've heard this before... :-) >3) If you try to make a vehicle that will both haul a few tons of logs >and handle like a Lotus in the turns, you will end up with something >that does neither well. This is what you have when you try to run >voice and data across *any* network, not just ATM, but IP as well. And given enough resources, one can choose to build separate networks for each type of service. I believe MCI has done just this, although their data network now does contain ATM. However, At least one large carrier, just announced plans to migrate both their voice _and_ data networks to ATM, including support of LANE. Go figure... >4) The most often touted advantage of voice over ATM is bandwidth >savings, not having to have dedicated bandwidth per circuit, etc. But >take a look at the decay curves of (a) the cost of bandwidth, and (b) >the cost of ATM switches, and tell me how much longer it's gonna make >any sense to shell out all that extra dough. These are important factors, however it will always be an economic advantage to effectively utilize purchased bandwidth, regardless of how much is available at what cost. What will happen is that integrated services will become affordable to smaller and smaller businesses. >5) Decay in the cost of bandwidth notwithstanding, in an Internet >network given the current explosive growth, even a 15% cell tax is >unacceptable. Not to mention that native IP networks have a much more >graceful performance degradation curve when they get congested than IP >over ATM networks. Not to mention, saturation comes 17% later. However, many operators have realized that the best way to avoid congestion is to get the fattest pipe they can, and that remains an ATM pipe. If bandwidth becomes as cheap as is necessary to support your arguments, then you can stay ahead of congestion with _either_ approach. I prefer to do this as while maintaining the ability to provide everything IP has to offer, with the added benefits (raw speed, voice) that ATM brings to the table. >Well, I really have to run, but I don't think the above comments boil >down to "ATM sucks". I agree. This is now just good old fashioned argument... -- Jim

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Re: Intra/Inter - was Inet-II
by Vadim Antonov 11 Oct '96

11 Oct '96

Bill Manning wrote: > Please note that firewalls, Intranets, Market-segment > nets (eg ANX, Inet-II, and the raft of MRNs) all are > there -because- of AUPs. And yes it is a mess and > it creates business opportunities and things would > be much better if we could all get along and do things > -my- way. :) > AUPs are a fact of life. We (as a community) have > to figure out how to deal with support of thousands > of AUPs in a global internet. There seems to be a confusion between private leaf networks (which nobody generally cares about) and the major backbone (as I-2 advocates portray it). Nobody cares about AUPs in leaf networks. AUPs in transit backbones are evil. Or everybody already forgot NSFNET AUP and the tons of related hackery in routing policies all around the world? And, then, we all know who pays for all of that, and where a hearty chunk of our paychecks is going. I do not see why governments should be in business of building networks. If academic users (not people claiming to be their representatives) really have a need for faster networks they have their grant money to pay for it, ok? Like they pay for everything else. For now is looks and smells exactly like pork, with a very bad taste at that, with all those Gore-Clintonese plans to buy support from academia for the next elections, and get a strong hand in controlling the same academia at the same time (it's always a sweet position to sit on a tap -- you don something government doesn't agree with, like hosting an encryption archive, or an anarchist website -- poof, here goes your goverment-paid network connection). Needless to say, that commercial entities are unlikely to allow that kind of information to be stored on their computers, so that academical networks provide most of really interesting and diverse content. Actually, that Clinton's network "initiative" is entirely in line with their other efforts to curb the free flow of information -- particularly at the place where there is a contingent of young people who would be affected most by the information. It is no secret that political views ofmost people who have spent some time with Internet tend to shift to more libertaran, as they get taste for free communication not generally afforded by the "democratic" system. Hence the effective opposition to the encryption policy and CDA. Sure as hell, after such embarrasment the administation does not like intelligentsia to have a voice. Don't fool yourself. The I-2 is not the "faster Internet". It is a tool to force those pesky free-thinkers to shut up. --vadim

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