October 1996 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Re: Intra/Inter - was Inet-II
by William Allen Simpson 11 Oct '96

11 Oct '96

> From: Vadim Antonov <avg(a)quake.net> > > Maybe. More likely it's a tool to give Higher Education > > institutions a QOS independant from the commercial world (also cheaper). > > Cheaper? Have you _ever_ seen anything done by the government that is > cheaper after you count all hidden costs? Actually, yes, there are quite a few examples.... Delivery of all social services has clearly been shown to be cheaper when done by government, when costs of fund collection, advertisement, and administration are included. Private charity is always more expensive, even when partly done with volunteer labor. The best numbers I have at hand are 3% government (US Food Stamps) versus 17% private (United Way) for administrative costs to delivered services. And when advertising and fund collection are added, many non-profit "charities" spend upwards of 50% on overhead! Another outstanding example is Public Radio and Television. That has been eroding as the government share of payments has been decreased, and overhead has increased due to the need for attracting advertising "sponsors". Once upon a time, there was virtually no non-production overhead. Now, with increased commercialization, there is a need to hire public relations and fundraising and grant writing personnel. Meanwhile, the hourly content has been diminished to insert the advertising. A classic documented case of the inefficiency of privatization.... Single payer medical services has also been shown to be cheaper than "insurance" systems, especially when advertisement and administration costs are counted. True, they have a tendency to reduce "choice", but so do the private commercial US HMOs, whether profit or non-profit. Centralized government recyling also comes to mind. Private commercial firms have more administrative overhead costs than goverment programs, even when governments are handling the fee collection (taxes). Private firms simply pay their administrators more, have a higher administrator to worker ratio, and have "profits" to distribute to shareholders. And far more of the waste stream ends up in land-fills, simply because it's still cheaper (in many parts of this country) than recycling. So, when the _goal_ is recycling, the government programs are far more cost effective for reaching that goal. More importantly to the case at hand, government use built the recycling waste stream to a point where commercial efforts could be mounted, and built a chain of suppliers and consumers. This is similar to the Internet experience. Goverment use built the net to a point where commercial activity could occur. We already had commercial telecommunications companies; they gave us X.25 ... and now, ATM. > Aw, how cute. Sounds like first-grader's taking about Granddad Lenin. > Surely smart grown-up people up will show us the Only And True Way, > they sure know better how to spend our money. > I'm afraid your emotional bias is showing. You are responsible for the government you have, and it spends its money exactly as you permit it. If not, you have the right to attempt to change it. Depends on how self-importantly you think of your own life.... WSimpson(a)UMich.edu Key fingerprint = 17 40 5E 67 15 6F 31 26 DD 0D B9 9B 6A 15 2C 32 BSimpson(a)MorningStar.com Key fingerprint = 2E 07 23 03 C5 62 70 D3 59 B1 4F 5E 1D C2 C1 A2

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Re: BBN outage
by dlr＠bungi.com 11 Oct '96

11 Oct '96

[In the message entitled "Re: BBN outage" on Oct 11, 21:29, John Hawkinson writes:] > > I will be happy to create this. In fact, it is done. > > > > outage(a)bungi.com is the address, outage-request(a)bungi.com for > > subscription. Majordomo-run, so it should be pretty painless. > > > > Ready now. > > Please punt this in favor of Stan Barber's list. > > See http://www.academ.com/nanog/may1996/outage.html. > All for it - I've re-directed requests to his list. -- Dave Rand dlr(a)bungi.com http://www.bungi.com

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Re: BBN outage
by Sean Donelan 11 Oct '96

11 Oct '96

>Because loss of connectivity for a day costs 10's of thousands >of dollars and, evidently, even the "big" companies are not >immune from "acts of god" like what happened today. Don't forget to submit those claims for credit under BBNplanet's 99.9% connectivity guarantee announced on September 24, 1996 within seven days by electronic mail. How you send electronic mail when your network is down isn't known. There seems to be a pattern forming here, AOL went off the air shortly after their provider announced their backbone availability guarantee too. Yes, its funny if it wasn't so serious. Every provider has problems, and their problems effect other people and providers. Hopefully providers will learn people notice when their network disappears. Maybe they just like getting lots of phone calls to their NOC. But it would be nice if there was a way providers could keep a broader audience informed rather than waiting for people to call. Am I really that unusual? I expect the worst to happen, and am always pleasently surprised when it doesn't. -- Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO Affiliation given for identification not representation

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Re: BBN outage
by pace＠smtp.amerhonda.com 11 Oct '96

11 Oct '96

> Every private reply I've gotten has basically said "nope, nobody at > BBN posted anything to anywhere about the outage" and a few said > "I called the NOC and found out the story". > > That's silly though... there's now thousands of providers out there. > One good posting to an outage list that could be put on each little > provider's status pages would save hundreds of calls of the big-network NOC. > > You'd think us network-operators would learn from these past several > big outages and have a good, reliable, mailing list up by now, but > I haven't heard about one. I'm reluctant to start it myself, because I > don't have enough network paths out of here to make it useful during > a serious multi-provider problem. I got a trouble ticket report from BBN when the outtage occurred, but that's probably because I'm a customer. I am very surprised that they did not have a generator backup on their UPS at such a critical site. Joe

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Re: BBN outage
by matthew＠scruz.net 11 Oct '96

11 Oct '96

Original message <961011191535.20554(a)SDG.DRA.COM> From: Sean Donelan <SEAN(a)SDG.DRA.COM> Date: Oct 11, 19:15 Subject: Re: BBN outage > ... > Yes, its funny if it wasn't so serious. Every provider has problems, > and their problems effect other people and providers.... ... Every private reply I've gotten has basically said "nope, nobody at BBN posted anything to anywhere about the outage" and a few said "I called the NOC and found out the story". That's silly though... there's now thousands of providers out there. One good posting to an outage list that could be put on each little provider's status pages would save hundreds of calls of the big-network NOC. You'd think us network-operators would learn from these past several big outages and have a good, reliable, mailing list up by now, but I haven't heard about one. I'm reluctant to start it myself, because I don't have enough network paths out of here to make it useful during a serious multi-provider problem. -matthew kaufman matthew(a)scruz.net

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Re: BBN outage
by Ravi Puvvala 11 Oct '96

11 Oct '96

BBNPlanet's back operational now. Ravi > > Rob Liebschutz <rob(a)rjl.com> says: > > >> Most of the SF Bay Area portion of BBN Planet's network has been offline > >> since late last night. I've finally heard, via a friend who is a major > >> customer of theirs, that they are having power problems in Palo Alto. > >> > >> Now, I haven't heard a peep about this on any of the mailing lists I'm on... > >> and since knowing about BIG outages like this would make it easier for > >> me to answer my customer's questions... am I missing something? > >> > >> Is there a mailing list that I should be on? Or is this just a private > >> BBN issue that I'd need to call their ops center people about (people who > >> I'm sure are very very busy without small network operators calling them) > >> > >> -matthew kaufman > >> matthew(a)scruz.net > >> > >> > > > >I just spoke to their NOC and was told that a power switch that is > >supposed to be able to switch them between 3 different power utilities > >failed at 12:30 this morning (friday). They bought and installed 2 > >large diesel generators today and are hoping to be back up using the > >generators within 30 minutes. > > > We're trying to figure out how long BBN's been down, are you talking > 12:30am PDT? If so, then they been down 16 hours. I started seeing mail > failures to Stanford (a big BBN site) at 9:33am PDT and first got email > about the problem from another ISP at around 11am. > > > --charles > charles(a)etak.com >

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Re: BBN outage
by Rob Liebschutz 11 Oct '96

11 Oct '96

We'll I got that information from the East Coast NOC. I suspect that the power failed at 12:30am PDT, but I believe they ran off battery backup for sometime before going down. There are BBN/Barrnet people on this list that could probably provide more accurate information. > > > Rob Liebschutz <rob(a)rjl.com> says: > > >> Most of the SF Bay Area portion of BBN Planet's network has been offline > >> since late last night. I've finally heard, via a friend who is a major > >> customer of theirs, that they are having power problems in Palo Alto. > >> > >> Now, I haven't heard a peep about this on any of the mailing lists I'm on... > >> and since knowing about BIG outages like this would make it easier for > >> me to answer my customer's questions... am I missing something? > >> > >> Is there a mailing list that I should be on? Or is this just a private > >> BBN issue that I'd need to call their ops center people about (people who > >> I'm sure are very very busy without small network operators calling them) > >> > >> -matthew kaufman > >> matthew(a)scruz.net > >> > >> > > > >I just spoke to their NOC and was told that a power switch that is > >supposed to be able to switch them between 3 different power utilities > >failed at 12:30 this morning (friday). They bought and installed 2 > >large diesel generators today and are hoping to be back up using the > >generators within 30 minutes. > > > We're trying to figure out how long BBN's been down, are you talking > 12:30am PDT? If so, then they been down 16 hours. I started seeing mail > failures to Stanford (a big BBN site) at 9:33am PDT and first got email > about the problem from another ISP at around 11am. > > > --charles > charles(a)etak.com >

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Re: BBN outage
by Sanjay Dani 11 Oct '96

11 Oct '96

> > On an unrelated note, I still have hard time believing > > companies like Sun are single homed through bbnplanet > > and have no backup when things like this happen. > > Why, just a few weeks ago there was a big discussion here on the > NANOG list that definitively proved that end-user multihoming > REDUCED reliability for that customer. BBN is a big company... > why would you want to risk all the complexity of having a > backup circuit to someone else? Because loss of connectivity for a day costs 10's of thousands of dollars and, evidently, even the "big" companies are not immune from "acts of god" like what happened today. Sanjay.

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Re: BBN outage
by Sanjay Dani 11 Oct '96

11 Oct '96

> Most of the SF Bay Area portion of BBN Planet's network has been offline > since late last night. I've finally heard, via a friend who is a major > customer of theirs, that they are having power problems in Palo Alto. > > Now, I haven't heard a peep about this on any of the mailing lists I'm on... > and since knowing about BIG outages like this would make it easier for > me to answer my customer's questions... am I missing something? > > Is there a mailing list that I should be on? Or is this just a private > BBN issue that I'd need to call their ops center people about (people who > I'm sure are very very busy without small network operators calling them) I guess they figured since it made the headlines on www.news.com this morning, everybody knows about it. On an unrelated note, I still have hard time believing companies like Sun are single homed through bbnplanet and have no backup when things like this happen. Sanjay.

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BBN outage
by matthew＠scruz.net 11 Oct '96

11 Oct '96

Most of the SF Bay Area portion of BBN Planet's network has been offline since late last night. I've finally heard, via a friend who is a major customer of theirs, that they are having power problems in Palo Alto. Now, I haven't heard a peep about this on any of the mailing lists I'm on... and since knowing about BIG outages like this would make it easier for me to answer my customer's questions... am I missing something? Is there a mailing list that I should be on? Or is this just a private BBN issue that I'd need to call their ops center people about (people who I'm sure are very very busy without small network operators calling them) -matthew kaufman matthew(a)scruz.net

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