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Re: Static IP addresses for Dial-up
by Robert A. Rosenberg 30 Jan '96

30 Jan '96

At 13:46 1/28/96, Peter Dawe wrote: >Demon Internet Services provide an IP address for every dial-up >customer. Most other ISPs have taken the view that this is a waste of >valuable IP space and allocate IP addresses dynamically. > >How should our industry respond to ISPs who behave selfishly and do >not take into account the good of the network? Demon (as it appears to the Internet [due to their dynamic modem binding/routing code]) is all permanently wired (but randomly powered-up/connected) hosts. The fact that the connections are via dial-up not leased lines is not relevant to how they appear to the Net. If every one of their users had their own leased line OR dial up port phone number would you say that they wasting space? There is no significant difference between these latter connection methods and Demon's actual "Dial any of our POPs to make your connection" method. All they are doing is sharing the modem ports instead of assigning a separate one to each customer. As they have noted, dynamic addressed does not fit the model of what they are selling (ie: CONNECTION not ACCESS). What types of Daemons/Agents are being run by the user while they are connected is not important due to the STATIC IPN (Something that would NOT be possible with a dynamic/random IPN number). Until Dynamic DNS is out in the field, Dynamic IPN supports ONLY Access not Connection (and as I noted, Demon sells Connection not just Access).

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by Vadim Antonov 30 Jan '96

30 Jan '96

Michael provided one reason why multihoming isn't always worth it. The other reason is that pretty many problems in Internet are caused by routing instabilities, and multihoming only provides more ways for the instabilities to affect the "redundant" network. Most of global routing problems can be classified as "Bysantine" in theory of fault-tolerant systems. I.e. faults which cannot be handled by replication of components. In my experience, purchasing a UPS is a much smarter way to spend money on improving reliability. Note that regular telephone service does not generally employ multihoming and dynamic adaptive routing, but has a lot better reliability. Something to think about. --vadim

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by Vadim Antonov 30 Jan '96

30 Jan '96

Well, i meant precisely the city loops which aren't multihomed, and that's what customers are using to access telco facilities. I.e. POTS customers (and their PBXes) aren't multihomed in the sense used in the discussion. The better term for telcos are doing for reliability between switch sites is called "standby", which is *not* the same as multihoming with adaptive routing. The point was that high reliability may be achieved w/o tricky things like adaptive routing, --vadim >From sdenny(a)red.hex.net Mon Jan 29 21:14:22 1996 Received: from tiny.sprintlink.net (tiny.sprintlink.net [199.0.55.90]) by titan.sprintlink.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA09936 for <avg(a)titan.sprintlink.net>; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:14:21 -0500 Received: from red.hex.net (sdenny(a)red.hex.net [198.175.15.226]) by tiny.sprintlink.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA14645 for <avg(a)sprint.net>; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:14:11 -0500 Received: (from sdenny@localhost) by red.hex.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) id UAA02836; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:14:00 -0600 Message-Id: <199601300214.UAA02836(a)red.hex.net> From: sdenny(a)red.hex.net (Stephen Denny) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:14:00 -0600 In-Reply-To: Vadim Antonov <avg(a)sprint.net> "Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations" (Jan 29, 4:19pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Vadim Antonov <avg(a)sprint.net> Subject: Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu, sdenny(a)red.hex.net Status: R On Jan 29, 4:19pm, Vadim Antonov wrote: > Note that regular telephone service does not generally employ multihoming > and dynamic adaptive routing, but has a lot better reliability. Something > to think about. }-- End of excerpt from Vadim Antonov Regular telephone service is indeed generally multihomed except for the final loop from the central office. SS7 is a major pain partly because of the multiple routes it supports. - Multiple links in linksets (partly for capacity, partly for reliability) - Multiple linksets in routesets, where each linkset terminates on a different node Typically the CO is "multihomed" to two mated STPs for signaling traffic, and user traffic is routed through multiple tandems based on load, availability, cost and destination. Of course SCPs are also deployed in pairs. All this is in addition to the redundancy built into each piece of equipment, or the underlying transport (e.g. sonet). Of course none of this stuff comes for the price of a Cisco router either. What *is* true is that the telephone network is more or less a static network in terms of routing (although becoming less so). It would be big news indeed if a new CO just popped onto the network and started "announcing" itself! This "static routing" idea makes for ultimate control and predictability even with multiple routes. Stephen -- --------------------------------------------------- Stephen Denny sdenny(a)hex.net Member of the Technical Staff, Hex.Net Superhighway

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by sdenny＠red.hex.net 30 Jan '96

30 Jan '96

On Jan 29, 4:19pm, Vadim Antonov wrote: > Note that regular telephone service does not generally employ multihoming > and dynamic adaptive routing, but has a lot better reliability. Something > to think about. }-- End of excerpt from Vadim Antonov Regular telephone service is indeed generally multihomed except for the final loop from the central office. SS7 is a major pain partly because of the multiple routes it supports. - Multiple links in linksets (partly for capacity, partly for reliability) - Multiple linksets in routesets, where each linkset terminates on a different node Typically the CO is "multihomed" to two mated STPs for signaling traffic, and user traffic is routed through multiple tandems based on load, availability, cost and destination. Of course SCPs are also deployed in pairs. All this is in addition to the redundancy built into each piece of equipment, or the underlying transport (e.g. sonet). Of course none of this stuff comes for the price of a Cisco router either. What *is* true is that the telephone network is more or less a static network in terms of routing (although becoming less so). It would be big news indeed if a new CO just popped onto the network and started "announcing" itself! This "static routing" idea makes for ultimate control and predictability even with multiple routes. Stephen -- --------------------------------------------------- Stephen Denny sdenny(a)hex.net Member of the Technical Staff, Hex.Net Superhighway

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Re: Chiappa blows his brains out (was Re: Policy Statement)
by Scott Huddle 30 Jan '96

30 Jan '96

Joel_M_Snyder(a)Opus1.COM writes > GIVEN that there exists some set of organizations who want to purchase > multiple T1s from multiple independent suppliers for purposes of > reliability and load sharing yet have need for less than 255 unique IP > addresses, and GIVEN that certain extremely popular software products (such > as Netscape Navigator) which are important to these organizations were > developed by programmers who seem to have no knowledge of either efficiency > or the way that the Internet works, and GIVEN that I have sufficient > knowledge about routing as is necessary to fully understand every technical > issue involved, and GIVEN that I have a rudimentary and imperfect > understanding of the political and economic issues regarding IP numbering > and the propagation of routes thereunto, HOW do I resolve the conflict > between justifiable corporate service requirements and the expressed > statements on these mailing lists the past few weeks which seem to imply > that anyone who does not consume at least a /18 worth of address space is > not worthy of being globally routed? > > I am asking, I suspect, not for a technical answer (there being none other > than Chiappa's "it's gonna cost"), but the most politically correct answer > to give the organization (which is not Netscape). You present a hard edge case that isn't particularly well met by the current infrastructure and it can't necessarily be done well or even done at all. (Sean's tricky chocolate-consulting hack excluded). Probably the best thing that be currently supported is getting two diverse connections to a single provider that can globally aggregate your network. The connections should go to different POPs and should follow seperate physical paths. This should provide you the desired reliability and load sharing. -scott

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RE: Chiappa blows his brains out (was Re: Policy Statement)
by lodge＠houston.omnes.net 30 Jan '96

30 Jan '96

Scott, >You present a hard edge case that isn't particularly well met by the current >infrastructure and it can't necessarily be done well or even done at all. >(Sean's tricky chocolate-consulting hack excluded). Probably the best >thing that be currently supported is getting two diverse connections to >a single provider that can globally aggregate your network. The connections >should go to different POPs and should follow seperate physical paths. >This should provide you the desired reliability and load sharing. Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is exactly the kind of pragmatic advice I was looking for. Saying "don't do it" or "multihoming costs" is not helpful -- this sort of answer is. Regards, Mathew

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REMINDER NANOG Meeting
by Pam Ciesla 29 Jan '96

29 Jan '96

If you are planning on attending the NANOG Meeting February 15 & 16 in San Diego please register ASAP. You can do this either by e-mail or using the registration form on the Merit Web Page. Thanks Pam Ciesla

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by Sean Donelan 29 Jan '96

29 Jan '96

>No, this isn't necessarily true. Many providers assume that just >because they received a /19 or whatever from its upstream ISP they >will automatically receive a larger block from the InterNIC with >no questions asked. ISPs must show they've utilized any previously >allocated blocks (whether from the InterNIC or from its upstream) >efficiently to receive additional addresses. Once they do this >than there's no problem receiving additional space. If they have >not shown proper utilization than in some cases they will receive >a smaller block to start. I'm glad to hear the NIC has changed their policy on this since we asked last year. -- Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO Affiliation given for identification not representation

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Re: Static IP addresses for Dial-up
by matthew＠scruz.net 29 Jan '96

29 Jan '96

Original message <MAPI.Id.0016.00657465726420204333343130303138(a)MAPI.to.RFC822> From: Peter Dawe <peterd(a)dial.pipex.com> Date: Jan 28, 18:46 Subject: Static IP addresses for Dial-up > > Demon Internet Services provide an IP address for every dial-up > customer. Most other ISPs have taken the view that this is a waste of > valuable IP space and allocate IP addresses dynamically. > > How should our industry respond to ISPs who behave selfishly and do > not take into account the good of the network? The access-control argument has been beaten to death already. We offer our customers static IP addresses for some additional reasons: - ability to receive mail by SMTP instead of POP - ability to run a part time WWW or BBS service at a fixed address - support for systems that don't easily support dynamic addresses (some Unix machines with hand-coded dialup scripts) and most importantly - ability to do disconnect-and-redial without breaking connections, which is particularly useful with ISDN. You can telnet somewhere, get idled out of the ISDN server, hit return and your ISDN adapter auto-redials and connects and your packet goes through, and you're still on the same address so everything works. Customers on flakey dialup lines (28.8k from up in the mountains during bad weather) appreciate this too. -matthew kaufman matthew(a)scruz.net

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Kudos to Sprint
by Kent W. England 29 Jan '96

29 Jan '96

Dick; It's nice to hear someone recognize Sprint's early understanding of how to approach the commercial Internet market with a two-pronged high/low strategy. Too bad the one who figured it out is no longer associated with SprintLink. --Kent At 01:03 AM 1/29/96 -0500, Dick St.Peters wrote: > >Were it not for Sprint, I wouldn't exist. > ... >Thanks in part to Sprint, that side business has grown into a network >of four POPs bringing the Internet to NY State's Adirondack region. >There's no fortune to be made here, but there's a living in it. It's >what I wanted to do, and I couldn't have done it without Sprint. > >Sean Doran's recent posting about how the Sprints aren't out to squash >us little guys but in fact are dependent on us was remarkably like the >way I used to explain Sprint's position during the CIX filtering war >in summer of '94. In fact, I think he stole those ideas from me :) > >Sprint is big, and they're busy, and it can be damnably hard to get >their attention (hence my posting), but I'm here because they helped >me when I needed help and backed me politically and operationally when >I needed backing. Out here in the woods, things like that still >matter. > ...

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