- Test - lists.nanog.org

Re: TLDs
by pj＠place.org 25 Apr '96

25 Apr '96

>Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:55:39 +0300 >From: Hank Nussbacher <hank(a)ibm.net.il> >Message-Id: <199604251155.OAA34257(a)rex.ibm.net.il> >To: nanog(a)merit.edu >Subject: Re: TLDs >Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu >Precedence: bulk > >Can we drop this TLD stuff? There are serious legal questions >on this entire matter. For those who want to follow up on >this see: >http://www.law.georgetown.edu/lc/internic/domain1.html >for the most comprehensive legal Web on the domain issue. > >There is even discussion for a solution: >http://www.law.georgetown.edu/lc/internic/prob1.html > >Hank Nussbacher I checked that website and it's all about issues of trademarks and domain names conflicting... but that's only one facet of the entire "cluttered namespace" problem. Other facets seem to be scalability, and just plain "what happens when the namespace is full? what then?". IMHO, the perceived problem with cluttering the namespace is at least fairly self-correcting - at some point (possibly already reached) .com will be basically filled (filled meaning having few or no desirable domain names) so there will be grousing until some one with a 2nd lvl domain starts selling subnames... now it'll have to be a good 2nd lvl domain to make any money, but deli.com, for instance, could sell stans.deli.com, kosher.deli.com, etc... if it becomes common and easy to do, then even people who don't sell domains as their main business could do so upon request to generate a little extra revenue... --Paul

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RE: NAVYJOBS.COM
by Jim Fleming 25 Apr '96

25 Apr '96

On Wednesday, April 24, 1996 7:36 PM, Jeremy Porter[SMTP:jerry@fc.net] wrote: @As much as it pains me to continue this thread, so far no @one has stated or challenged the obvious solution. @ I assume that you mean....as stated in your closing comments... "My only real thought in this, is that the only long term solution will be some sort of group elected by the population of the Internet." I could not agree more... @>>If I had my way, we would just have country code TLD's and .INT, and @>>.INT would be restricted as it is now do international treaty orgs. @>>However, the market speaks loudly and those of us who do not listen @>>to it will find ourselves sidelined. @> @>The market also "speaks" for address portability and cars which @>make million miles on a gallon. @ @But the market doesn't speak in these issue, it maybe @whines, but there isn't anyone that has put up the cash on the @table to do either of these, while they are both technically @possible, they are not economically practical. @ Why are people going to put up cash when other companies and groups have been handed not only a "sweet-heart deal" but also implicit government endorsements and carte-blanche to make and change the rules at will...? @>I quite agree that we should go with customer demand, but -- as long @>as the road does not go into a nice solid brick wall. @> @>If we won't actively fight dot-envy we're going to get into @>serious name collision problems. And, no, many many TLDs @>do not change the nature of the problem and just move it @>one level higher. (Want to bet that as soon as new TLDs will @>be allowed ATT's lawyers would clamour for "ATT" top-level @>domain?) @ @The question is, is this really a bad thing? I would @say that it isn't. @ In my opinion, the TLDs should be more like "roots" than the current second-level domain names. A trusteeship should be set up to handle the creation of one or more TLD registries for a TLD name. The registries should handle the registrations below the TLD, not the trusteeship. Implicit in the creation of a TLD is the assumption that some quantity of people or companies will want to register below the name. I am not sure that many people would advocate using the creation of TLDs to encourage companies to remove the .COM, .NET, .EDU, etc. parts of their names. In some cases, this would not work very well... check out... http://www.whitehouse.gov http://www.whitehouse.net @ @It the IANA, charges $10,000 - $100,000 annually to anyone that @wanted a TLD, I think we would be fairly well off, at $10,000 @a registry would need 200 - 2000 sub domains at $50/year for @it to pay its fees. @ Have you looked at the .COM statistics lately...? @I say that if you charge on the order of $100,000/year, @only people that are commercial registries will be holding @TLDs. I think that TLD trusteeships should be non-commercial and TLD registries by definition be commercial and not-for-profit mechanisms should be used where desired. @You allow all of the ISO country codes to @continue as is. Network Solutions can have first bid @on COM, NET, ORG, EDU, etc., and charge whatever it wants. @ Interesting...based on what reason...? @These TLD registry fees go to funding root name servers, @BIND, ISC, etc. @ It sounds like you might be advocating a third level here... 1. Trusteeships - really call the shots 2. Registries - process paper work 3. Server Operators - make it happen @>Flattening domain name tree by adding more TLDs is the Wrong Thing. @>It is totally bogus. @> @>>My original proposal was to create enough (tens of thousands) of TLD's such @>>that this sort of small minded protectionist idiocy would be impractical. @> @>It is much better to make dot-envy less sexy by *mandating* minimal @>tree depth under existing domains. Old allocations may be grandfathered, @>and people should be made aware that keeping first-level domain @>names *is* antisocial. @ @Peer pressure isn't going to cut it, there are more of "them", @than there are of "us". @ The Internet must recognize that the world has changed substantially. I predict that nothing will really change. Instead, the real world will quickly construct new solutions around the Legacy Internet and will move forward and never look back. I think that some of the people that have brought the net this far will be left standing there with their mouth's hanging open. Some of course will cash in big time. @If someone wants to register in 10,000 TLDs, at $50 each, @let them. If .COM is a sewer, let it. People that want @to be registered in a TLD that doesn't suffer from @excessive name collision, can. @ Yes...the market forces will fixe this sort of thing... @>How about ceasing .COM allocations altogether? There's .US and .INT. @> @>>The IANA did not see things my way on this point, and so I suspect that the @>>larger companies headed by people with the smaller craniums will all decide @>>to register in every TLD. @> @>Being antisocial does not mean being stupid. There's a tangible @>benefit of having names everywhere (in a sense, it is a "replacement" @>for shorter names, as you won't need to remember which TLD was @>used). Again, this is the case when market forces are directly @>counterproductive. @ @There should be a tangible cost. @ @The .COM sewer is a direct result of regulatory distortion. @ It is the result of very poor planning, mismanagement and some very clever positioning by people and companies that clearly see no need (or benefit to them) to have other players in the game... @Useful TLD space, is a finite resource, and everyone hear seems to agree @on that. We currently have the regulator (IANA), giving a @free monopoly to one organization on "useful" commercial @TLD space. @ ...and as time runs on this monopoly grows to become an institution and other TLD registries are not allowed to get started and they continue to fall behind, the barrier to entry gets higher, economic opportunities are lost, and the people responsible for this slow decision making process become liable for this damage... @There are some serious issues with this proposal I will admit, @perhaps the worst is, who decides how registry fees are to allocated, @etc. @ they should be allocated to the people that do the work... @Of course I also believe that the Internet could do well with @with modern western "theory" of government, i.e by the people, @of the people, for the people. But instead of we are @stuck with the relatively harmless IANA dictatorship. @ harmless...??? I have a feeling that there are some potential TLD candidates that would disagree with your usage of the term harmless... If a TLD can attract 1,000 registrations per month at $50 each then each month that goes by could mean $50,000 less revenue to a hopeful TLD and some portion of that revenue to the chosen few... When you couple that with the time value of money and the multiples that the stock market puts on Internet stocks, you could end up with some multi-million dollar claims... these claims can be made against people that can not seem to make a decision, can not make anything move forward, and operate like a deer caught in the headlights of a car... @I expect I will get several emails about TLD speculation, @but I PROMISE to ignore them, because they are baseless @speculation founded on lack of understanding of the free @market system. @ @I would propose a even more radical solution to the @"TLD" problem, but it has some serious implications, @as I have said before there is no technical reason for @the de-facto implementors of name space policy, the root @name servers, to listen to IANA. But I personally @don't feel up to the challenge of designing a workable @"democratic" governance system for the Internet. My only @real thought in this, is that the only long term solution @will be some sort of group elected by the population of @the Internet. @ @-- @Jeremy Porter, Freeside Communications, Inc. jerry(a)fc.net ...once again...your summary is... "My only real thought in this, is that the only long term solution will be some sort of group elected by the population of the Internet." I hope that you other thoughts were not "virtual" thoughts... I happen to agree that some form of government or elections are needed. I have suggested a trusteeship approach where groups of 8 people volunteer and resources are placed in trust with the group. Not many people seem to want to change the status quo...they just keep standing around as the headlights get brighter... -- Jim Fleming UNETY Systems, Inc. Naperville, IL 60563 e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net

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Re: Inter-exchange media types
by avg＠postman.ncube.com 25 Apr '96

25 Apr '96

Curtis Villamizar <curtis(a)ans.net> wrote: >The problem for the major exchanges may soon be what to do when the >gigaswitch runs out of bandwidth. a) access links will run out of gas first. b) if shared infrastructure gets overloaded you can always drop point-to-point FDDI to the peers you have the largest traffic with, and so offload large chunks of tarffic from the shared infrastructure. That was one of the reasons why colocation was choosen as The Way To Go. --vadim

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Sidelined?
by Jim Fleming 25 Apr '96

25 Apr '96

On Wednesday, April 24, 1996 3:44 PM, Paul A Vixie[SMTP:paul@vix.com] wrote: <snip>. @However, the market speaks loudly and those of us who do not listen @to it will find ourselves sidelined. I've never been given permission <snip> I am not sure what you mean by sidelined. As I see it, the Legacy Internet has years and years of life left in it. People will be able to debate everything from how many angels can dance on the head of a pin to whether or not angels exist and should all be given one of the scarce IPv4 addresses. After that, more debates will focus on IPv6. Just as the railroads were augmented by airlines, the Legacy Internet will hopefully be surrounded by more modern designs that have the luxury of building on the successful platform that you helped create. In my opinion, these new designs will demand very little change to the Legacy Internet and this will be good because changes to large systems are always very difficult. New designs will bank on the fact that changes will not likely occur and that people like yourself will keep the "trains" operating long enough for others to get the airlines flying. Fortunately, we do not need clearance (permission) from the railroads to fly over the tops of the trains moving slowly along the tracks. Someday, air traffic control will be needed and I hope that some of your technology is reused. I would hardly call this being sidelined. In the meantime, it does not make much sense to try to attach wings to railroad cars. At best, all we can hope is that the railroads will deliver lots of passengers to the air terminals. These passengers will be searching for more efficient, faster and lower-cost transportation solutions. They may not care if the plane has a V6 or a V8....:-) -- Jim Fleming UNETY Systems, Inc. Naperville, IL 60563 e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net

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Re: NAVYJOBS.COM
by avg＠postman.ncube.com 24 Apr '96

24 Apr '96

Tim Bass wrote: <skipped> Oh, here we go again; arguing against mathematics. "Social Engineering" is merely a way to organize a society so it won't behave in a self-destructive manner. Free market rules (private property, freedom of trading, etc) is also a form of social engineering. Attaching any religious value to it is silly and counterproductive. In most cases the free market is quite adequate as a regulator. However, Internet namespace *is* a monopoly; and free market approach does not work here. There's no other Internet to go to if you don't like pricing or features or performance of the current one (and i'm not sure we want to have an alternative Internet). The problem with the "infinite" resources like namespaces is that they aren't. Every single name added to .COM does not do much damage; but the cumulative effect is that the whole system is going straight into a brick wall. It is no different from route announcements in terms of social dynamics. The math is also very much the same. --vadim PS BTW, is there any kind of statistics for .COM NS-es on the diversity of requests per different time intervals? How many requests are handled by .COM NS-es every second?

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None
by Edward Henigin 24 Apr '96

24 Apr '96

I can't reach the whois servers to get POC information for suranet or bbnplanet, thus I spam y'all. A traceroute from escape.com yields: [6:34pm] ~>traceroute knock.ser.bbnplanet.com traceroute to knock.ser.bbnplanet.com (192.239.16.129), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 Escape-gw.escape.com (198.6.71.1) 4.744 ms 7.341 ms 5.56 ms 2 sl-pen-7-S3/1-T1.sprintlink.net (144.228.67.37) 32.182 ms 25.065 ms 29.628 ms 3 sl-pen-1-F0/0.sprintlink.net (144.228.60.1) 31.623 ms 34.746 ms 48.529 ms 4 sl-dc-6-H2/0-T3.sprintlink.net (144.228.10.33) 41.318 ms 35.605 ms 22.101 ms 5 sl-dc-8-F0/0.sprintlink.net (144.228.20.8) 33.347 ms 14.038 ms 16.873 ms 6 sl-mae-e-H2/0-T3.sprintlink.net (144.228.10.42) 31.242 ms 45.161 ms 22.078 ms 7 cpe3-fddi-0.washington.mci.net (192.41.177.180) 27.496 ms 24.759 ms 25.055 ms 8 borderx2-hssi2-0.Washington.mci.net (204.70.74.117) 38.741 ms 18.782 ms 16.053 ms 9 core1-fddi-1.Washington.mci.net (204.70.3.1) 40.078 ms 24.665 ms 24.12 ms 10 border1-fddi-0.Washington.mci.net (204.70.2.2) 27.5 ms 26.435 ms * 11 suranet-wtn-ds3.Washington.mci.net (204.70.56.6) 81.886 ms 30.823 ms 18.012 ms 12 washdc2-br1.bbnplanet.net (128.167.7.8) 20.383 ms 14.938 ms 19.731 ms 13 collegepk-cr9.bbnplanet.net (128.167.212.1) 20.169 ms 21.512 ms 31.437 ms 14 collegepk-cr2.bbnplanet.net (128.167.252.2) 21.481 ms 27.512 ms 41.851 ms 15 knock.sura.net (192.239.16.129) 46.716 ms 30.679 ms 28.82 ms A traceroute from our server yields: millenium:/tmp$ traceroute knock.ser.bbnplanet.com traceroute to knock.ser.bbnplanet.com (192.239.16.129), 30 hops max, 40 byte pas 1 sa-gw.texas.net (204.96.20.1) 2.285 ms 7.453 ms 11.116 ms 2 border1-serial3-0.Dallas.mci.net (204.70.115.41) 42.385 ms 24.505 ms 17.s 3 core1-fddi-0.Dallas.mci.net (204.70.114.17) 15.846 ms 32.539 ms 41.997 ms 4 core1.Washington.mci.net (204.70.4.129) 85.212 ms 98.95 ms 102.686 ms 5 border1-fddi-0.Washington.mci.net (204.70.2.2) 146.24 ms 79.149 ms 104.7s 6 suranet-wtn-ds3.Washington.mci.net (204.70.56.6) 125.784 ms 166.232 ms 1s 7 * * * 8 * * * 9 * * * 10 * * * [ad nauseum]. I'm guessing either a routing problem by MCI, or by suranet. Can anyone out there help me? I've called and e-mail MCI's trouble system, but can't get any information on suranet's POC's. Thanks, Ed Henigin Texas Networking, Inc.

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Re: NAVYJOBS.COM
by Havard.Eidnes＠runit.sintef.no 24 Apr '96

24 Apr '96

Hm, I know I may catch some flak for this, but... > [...] The YMBK proposal from the second NSF workshop will > almost certainly be the way of the future, and we will see a > lot more TLD's and hopefully no one of them will ever be as > ugly as .COM is now. It seems to me that the problem which pushes in the direction of lots of more TLDs is fairly US-specific, as the vast majority of registrants in the COM domain are US companies. Why, then, do you want to pollute the name space used for naming the national domain names with what is essentially a US-originating problem? Is there someone who thinks that trademark problems will be any less of a concern by creating lots of new TLDs -- won't a trade- mark owner be equally interested in protecting his rights in all the new TLDs, especially if the new TLDs are "generic"? - Håvard

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Re: NAVYJOBS.COM
by Paul J. Zawada 24 Apr '96

24 Apr '96

At 02:05 PM 4/24/96 +0200, Havard.Eidnes(a)runit.sintef.no wrote: >Is there someone who thinks that trademark problems will be any >less of a concern by creating lots of new TLDs -- won't a trade- >mark owner be equally interested in protecting his rights in all >the new TLDs, especially if the new TLDs are "generic"? Good point... Look at the introduction of the 888 prefix in the US. The FCC is still trying to figure about what to do about all of the companies that want their "vanity" 800 numbers replicated into the 888 numbering space. What's the point of making the name (or number, in the case of 888) space bigger if it's just going to be filled up with copies of what's out there already? --zawada Paul J. Zawada | Senior Network Engineer zawada(a)ncsa.uiuc.edu | National Center for Supercomputing Applications +1 217 244 4728 | http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/zawada

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Wyndham Bristol Hotel
by Pam Ciesla 24 Apr '96

24 Apr '96

There was a bit of confusion at the hotel regarding reservations for the NANOG Mtg. It was listed under Commercial Internet Exchange instead of NANOG. This has been corrected. If you have made reservations and did not get the special rate of $119.00 please reconfirm your reservations. Pam

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Re: NAVYJOBS.COM
by avg＠postman.ncube.com 24 Apr '96

24 Apr '96

Jon Zeef wrote: >> Flattening domain name tree by adding more TLDs is the Wrong Thing. >> It is totally bogus. >> >> How about ceasing .COM allocations altogether? There's .US and .INT. >Which have policies that make them not very usefull for offloading some >of .com. Heh. Are the policies written in stone? Is it gospel or something? Are we supposed to snap to attention as somebody says the magic word "policy"? I'd rather smack those who invent stupid policies on the head so they won't do that again. Can anybody please answer how did it happen that IANA allowed people who cannot come up with sane policies to hijack the country's domain? How did it happen that .US is close to useless? >First you say it's the wrong approach, then you suggest using that >basic approach. Wrong. Did i propose to create new TLDs? Switching from .COM to .US is good because it breaks the dot-envy feeding frenzy. And .US already has a mandatory tree structure in it. >More TLDs is the Right Thing for business reasons and to a small extent, >technically. To a *very* small extent. They're ultimately destructive from the social point of view. How do you propose to prevent the problem which happens in .COM now from repeating at top level? The only thing which kept top level domain from bloating is the strict policy of ISO coutry-codes only. I know several service providers which will start lobbying IANA for new TLDs the very next day it is allowed -- just because they percieve that registries run by competitiors have the ability to harm their business. And you have no way to find out if their claims have any merit. US is lucky to have InterNIC which is *not* in bit transport business. It is not like that in other places. Sorry, new TLDs is worse than non-solution. I've been there with .SU name allocation policies. As long as some guidelines (i.e. only geographical/major metropolitan first-level domains) were maintained everything was fine. They were abandoned for .RU -- and look what a mess it is now. Exactly like .COM. Why the alternative registries won't take subdomains of .US which are not used for states? (Or why not allocate names like <org>.<state><registry#>.US)? *Any* scheme limiting branching of a tree to some reasonable level is better than "new TLD" proposal which does not include any guidelines to that effect. Please do not dump US problems onto outside world. --vadim

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