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re: class B for sale
by Brett L. Hawn 10 Mar '97

10 Mar '97

So that I'm not misunderstood let me say this: 1: I do not neccessarily agree with the sale of IPs, personally, I don't think its a good idea 2: This is a real world economy now, outdated academic practices which are currently being enforced are as wrong as the sale of IPs. 3: Wether you, ARIN, or anyone else likes it or not, IPs are for all intents and purposes a resellable commodity, otherwise ARIN et all can (ala Jim Flemming) be called on as being a Monopoly. 4: The simple fact of the matter is that the RFCs are not at any time, the law of the land. They are at best guidelines and good ideas set down for others to follow, but there is no rule stating that you _must_ follow them. 5: Before you start chasing wild geese selling Class B address space I suggest you go back and check on all those folks that got space long before there were any 'restrictions and justifications'. I have no doubt that there is a veritable feast of IPs sitting unused at MIT, USC, and other such institutions that would be better used elsewhere instead of sitting in a corner like a dusty grad student. 6: Finally and most importantly, stop pretending you still live in the world of happy academia where everyone is willing to follow the rules you set down just because you're the proffessor and they're the student. This just does not work anymore, you may scoff at people like Jim Flemming but for each one you knock down there is another one to learn from his mistakes and take his place. Do not pretend you can sit idle and call people who don't fall in line behind you names so that you can sit back in your dusty chair and pretend nothing is wrong. The internet as a whole is growing at an unthought of pace and your failure to keep up will not be fixed by being tight assed and making it harder on those that follow. Eventually someone else will take the forefront and throw you off your high horse like yesterdays newspaper. You purport to be leaders of the internet, then its about time you acted like it and start to solve the problems instead of trying to make the problems go away by being ignorant of reality. [-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]

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IP Ownership and Domain Names
by Jim Fleming 09 Mar '97

09 Mar '97

On Sunday, March 09, 1997 9:56 PM, Steven M. Bellovin[SMTP:smb@research.att.com] wrote: @ At 08:23 AM 3/10/97 +1000, Geoff Huston wrote: @ >Of course this scenario breaks down quickly.. @ > @ >Listed registrant A "sells" to B who "sells" to C who... @ > @ >Now the sucker who "buys" from C has the problem of tracing authenticity @ >of the "title" C is selling. This is not easy, particularly if B is less @ >than scrupulous and has "sold" title to a number of folk including @ >C, or if C is unscrupulous and is "selling" without have concluded @ >and transaction with B. @ @ This can easily be solved in a number of ways. For example, a public key @ could be publicly associated with each address. A transfer is accomplished @ by signing a message to that effect. Similarly -- and very importantly -- @ control over routing of that address is also governed by that @ private/public key pair. There's more to this protocol than I've @ described, but it can be made to work. @ @ You could also handle it just like "domain names".... Does AT&T "own"....ATT.COM ? Does AT&T "own".... 12.IN-ADDR.ARPA ? and 135.IN-ADDR.ARPA ? How about... 12.IP4.INT ? 135.IP4.INT ? are those registered....? FL 12.0.0.0 AT&T ITS (NET-ATT) FL 135.0.0.0 AT&T ITS (NET-ATT-135-0-0-0-B) -- Jim Fleming Unir Corporation e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net JimFleming(a)unety.s0.g0 (EDNS/IPv8)

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Is the InterNIC really screwed in the head?
by Ehud Gavron 09 Mar '97

09 Mar '97

RFC954 specifies WHOIS. Client requests, server sends. Simple, really. $ whois opus4-hst .... Would you like to see registered users of this host? WHAT??? My whois client is supposed to search for this string and then do interactive input??? HuH?? $ whois pa aces (shows a handful of entries) There are 96 more matches.... would you like these displayed? EH? Anyone else think this is not only a gross violation of an RFC, does a disservice to millions of WHOIS-using users out there, and the final leg of the dissolution of the world? Ehud

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RE: The Mother of all Solutions (Was Class B for Sale or Rent)
by Jim Fleming 09 Mar '97

09 Mar '97

On Sunday, March 09, 1997 3:56 PM, Randy Bush[SMTP:randy@psg.com] wrote: @ Emilio Bugatti (sp?), at the time the maker of the finest cars in the world, @ was asked why the brakes on his cars were not as good as they might be. He @ replied "Any fool can make a car stop. It takes a genius to make a car go." @ @ I suggest we focus on the latter. @ After the Top Level Domain debates, someone sent me private mail saying that if General Motors had invented and released the Internet, the public would currently be in every court in the land claiming that GM intentionally forgot to design in the brakes.... I see that you confirm that what some people see as a flaw, you view as a feature...Thanks...;-) P.S. Business people may look at this an conclude that there is a huge market for retrofit brakes... -- Jim Fleming Unir Corporation e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net JimFleming(a)unety.s0.g0 (EDNS/IPv8)

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RE: Class "B" forsale (fwd)
by Jim Fleming 09 Mar '97

09 Mar '97

On Sunday, March 09, 1997 4:35 PM, Stephen Sprunk[SMTP:spsprunk@paranet.com] wrote: <snip> @ Did you sign any such contract when you got your IP addresses? Are there @ any laws in your jurisdiction stating the ownership and appropriate use of @ your addresses? @ People who are homesteading may not have "signed" anything. Other people may have signed papers and paid money. @ There is no workable analogy in this case because there are no contracts and @ no laws regarding anything on the Net at this point. Until ARIN makes you @ sign an acceptable-use agreement (and makes pre-1996 "owners" sign it too), @ there can be no enforceable policy other than what the core router owners @ decide. Routability determines address assignment far more definitively @ than a NIC board room full of cigar smoke and $10k fees. @ @ Stephen Sprunk How do you know...."there are no contracts and no laws"...? -- Jim Fleming Unir Corporation e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net JimFleming(a)unety.s0.g0 (EDNS/IPv8)

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Re: Class "B" forsale (fwd)
by Stephen Sprunk 09 Mar '97

09 Mar '97

There are LAWs (not RFCs) stating that you cannot do this. Also, you have signed papers (which undoubtedly you don't remember) which state that the plates are owned by the state and you must return them upon request, are non-transferrable, etc etc etc. Did you sign any such contract when you got your IP addresses? Are there any laws in your jurisdiction stating the ownership and appropriate use of your addresses? There is no workable analogy in this case because there are no contracts and no laws regarding anything on the Net at this point. Until ARIN makes you sign an acceptable-use agreement (and makes pre-1996 "owners" sign it too), there can be no enforceable policy other than what the core router owners decide. Routability determines address assignment far more definitively than a NIC board room full of cigar smoke and $10k fees. Stephen Sprunk At 13:59 09 03 97 -0500, Lon R. Stockton, Jr. wrote: >So, since I paid money for my car registration & license plates, I should >be able to sell my plates to someone else to put on their car? >On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote: >> Been there, read that, and I still say they're selling space, leasing space, >> auctioning space, etc. Fact of the matter is they are _CHARGING MONEY_ (not >> bannana peels) for services rendered. Their services are to hand out IP >> space and maintain databases, therefor they are SELLING space.

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RE: The Mother of all Solutions (Was Class B for Sale or Rent)
by Jim Fleming 09 Mar '97

09 Mar '97

On Sunday, March 09, 1997 6:16 PM, Benjamin Inman Vaughn[SMTP:sedriss@Prophet-indy.org] wrote: @ @ Less ARIN and NIC are run by the principles Adam Smith described @ in the early Nineteenth Century. I don't know, maybe Address assignment is @ controlled by the unseen hand of god. @ @ The beginning and end of it is that selling address space is @ against RFC's and ethics, and it should be left at that. @ You might want to be more specific when you use the term... ..."address space"... Do you mean...? IPv4 address space ? IPv6 address space ? IPv8 address space ? How do you describe the current status of the address spaces below ? 1. On loan ? 2. Homesteading ? 3. Owned ? 4. Unused ? 5. U.S. Government Property ? 6. Grandfathered ? 7. Not part of the Real World(tm) ? 8. _________________ (other) FL 12.0.0.0 AT&T ITS (NET-ATT) CA 13.0.0.0 Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (NET-XEROX-NET) CA 14.0.0.0 Public Data Network (NET-PDN) CA 15.0.0.0 Hewlett-Packard Company (NET-HP-INTERNET) CA 16.0.0.0 Digital Equipment Corporation (NET-DEC-INTERNET) CA 17.0.0.0 Apple Computer, Inc. (NET-APPLE-WWNET) MA 18.0.0.0 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (NET-MIT-TEMP) MI 19.0.0.0 Ford Motor Company (NET-FINET) VA 20.0.0.0 Computer Sciences Corporation (NET-CSC) VA 21.0.0.0 DDN-RVN (NET-DDN-RVN) DC 22.0.0.0 Defense Information Systems Agency (NET-DISNET) CA 23.0.0.0 IANA (NET-DDN-TC-NET) CA 24.0.0.0 @Home Network (NETBLK-ATHOME) ATHOME 24.0.0.0 - 24.3.255.0 -- Jim Fleming Unir Corporation e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net JimFleming(a)unety.s0.g0 (EDNS/IPv8)

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Re: Class "B" forsale (fwd)
by Geoff Huston 09 Mar '97

09 Mar '97

Of course this scenario breaks down quickly.. Listed registrant A "sells" to B who "sells" to C who... Now the sucker who "buys" from C has the problem of tracing authenticity of the "title" C is selling. This is not easy, particularly if B is less than scrupulous and has "sold" title to a number of folk including C, or if C is unscrupulous and is "selling" without have concluded and transaction with B. The Land Titles office is there for a damn fine reason. We ignore the seeds of destructive anarchy in the IP address space at our collective risk (or is that peril?) regards, Geoff >Given the registries do not allow for outright transfers of this sort >directly (see RFC 2050), one course of action would be for the >original "owner" to sell the "right of use" of the /16. Of course, >the appropriate action (according to RFC 2050 and historical Internet >culture) would be for the original "owner" to return address space >they don't need... > >Regards, >-drc > > >

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RE: The Mother of all Solutions (Was Class B for Sale or Rent)
by Jim Fleming 09 Mar '97

09 Mar '97

On Sunday, March 09, 1997 8:34 AM, Ehud Gavron[SMTP:GAVRON@ACES.COM] wrote: @ Let me add a word to Brett's comments. This IS a world-scale @ economy. @ @ If a LARGE GROUP OF NETWORK PROVIDERS (that's us, btw, nanog), @ decided TOMORROW that WE will assign address space and route to @ it, there is no force in the world that will charge for it, or @ be able to change it. @ @ Here's the Ehud Scenario: @ 1. Tomorrow Paul Vixie gets a pirate hair up his dec alpha @ and puts in 64.in-addr.arpa. through 126.in-addr.arpa. @ in F. @ 2. We start assigning nets from this block (64/8-126/8). @ 3. We start routing to this block (ok, I don't own a backbone @ yet, but let me use "we" meaning nanog for now ;) @ Your scenario is very interesting. I suggest that you study prior art. Also, in my other posting I left one of the players out. I have labeled it 1A. Many owners will not want to "manage" their blocks just like many people who own large office buildings do not want to manage the property. 1. The ownership of aggregated IPv4 addresses (i.e. blocks). 1A. The management of the blocks. 2. The leasing of those blocks. 3. The registration of those blocks. 4. The reverse resolution of those blocks. 5. The routing announcement of those blocks. @ Is this unlawful? No. There's no law about announcing routes, @ nor about delegating them in private internets. For practical @ purposes, NANOG members form a private internet. @ @ Is this unethical? Some would say 'Sure, only the InterNIC and @ IANA can assign IP addresses.' Some tell me this thinking is @ obsolete. Jim Fleming would salivate, and Karl Deninger would @ laugh. Well, maybe. @ Please study prior art before jumping to conclusions. Also, you might want to study the SBA/NSF proposal(s) that call for the creation of 10 regional InterNIC clones in the U.S. Each regional InterNIC would have several TLDs and several /8s to manage to generate revenue to help cover their costs. @ Is this impractical? I dunno. I figure we could bribe Paul with @ $ 2000 per assignment regardless of size (after all, two NS entries @ are all the same cost). After about 52 /24s, he'd double his @ yearly retainer income (all figures guesses with no real basis) @ and probably be able to retire to Caymans. (That's a Brett Scenario). @ I would first check with the owners of the various parts of the IPv4 space. @ Oh yeah, it's my idea, so I want anyone who gets an allocation from @ this scheme to send me a bottle of single-malt Scotch. @ @ Let me know if I've left something out. @ @ Ehud @ @ p.s. If I've pissed off anybody in this post, send me a private @ note via us mail. Be sure to include a bottle of single malt @ Scotch or your note will be returned. Just like email to admin@crl Why would anyone be upset...? People most likely fall into one of the following categories... 1. Owner 2. Homesteader 3. Manager 4. Registrar 5. Resolver 6. Router >From what I understand most of the NANOG people are #4, #5, or #6. The issues you have raised will mostly be of interest to people in the categories #1 to #3. -- Jim Fleming Unir Corporation e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net JimFleming(a)unety.s0.g0 (EDNS/IPv8)

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RE: class B for sale
by Jim Fleming 09 Mar '97

09 Mar '97

On Sunday, March 09, 1997 6:48 AM, Brett L. Hawn[SMTP:blh@nol.net] wrote: @ So that I'm not misunderstood let me say this: @ @ 1: I do not neccessarily agree with the sale of IPs, personally, I don't @ think its a good idea @ There are several issues here: 1. The ownership of aggregated IPv4 addresses (i.e. blocks). 2. The leasing of those blocks. 3. The registration of those blocks. 4. The reverse resolution of those blocks. 5. The routing announcement of those blocks. An "owner" [#1] may not be involved in any of the remaining activities above and may only care about collecting "rent". People might find it interesting that several of the companies with massive /8 allocations do not think they "own" the blocks. They can not own them because they never paid for them. Likewise, they are not leasing the blocks, because they do not know who the owner is and would be willing to pay "rent" if they could identify the owner. @@@@@@@@ First 25% of IPv4 Address Space @@@@@@@@@@ CA 0.0.0.0 IANA (RESERVED-1) CA 1.0.0.0 IANA (RESERVED-9) CA 2.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED) (NET-RESERVED-2) NJ 3.0.0.0 General Electric Company (NET-GE-INTERNET) MA 4.0.0.0 BBN Planet (NET-SATNET) CA 5.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED) (NET-RESERVED-5) AZ 6.0.0.0 Army Information Systems Center (NET-YPG-NET) CA 7.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED-11) MA 8.0.0.0 Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc. (NET-BBN-NET-TEMP) NY 9.0.0.0 IBM Corporation (NET-IBM) CA 10.0.0.0 IANA (RESERVED-6) CA 11.0.0.0 DoD Intel Information Systems (NET-DODIIS) FL 12.0.0.0 AT&T ITS (NET-ATT) CA 13.0.0.0 Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (NET-XEROX-NET) CA 14.0.0.0 Public Data Network (NET-PDN) CA 15.0.0.0 Hewlett-Packard Company (NET-HP-INTERNET) CA 16.0.0.0 Digital Equipment Corporation (NET-DEC-INTERNET) CA 17.0.0.0 Apple Computer, Inc. (NET-APPLE-WWNET) MA 18.0.0.0 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (NET-MIT-TEMP) MI 19.0.0.0 Ford Motor Company (NET-FINET) VA 20.0.0.0 Computer Sciences Corporation (NET-CSC) VA 21.0.0.0 DDN-RVN (NET-DDN-RVN) DC 22.0.0.0 Defense Information Systems Agency (NET-DISNET) CA 23.0.0.0 IANA (NET-DDN-TC-NET) CA 24.0.0.0 @Home Network (NETBLK-ATHOME) ATHOME 24.0.0.0 - 24.3.255.0 UK 25.0.0.0 Royal Signals and Radar Establishment (NET-RSRE-EXP) VA 26.0.0.0 Defense Information Systems Agency (NET-MILNET) CA 27.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED-10) VA 28.0.0.0 ARPA DSI JPO (NET-DSI-NORTH) DC 29.0.0.0 Defense Information Systems Agency (NET-MILX25-TEMP) DC 30.0.0.0 Defense Information Systems Agency (NET-ARPAX25-TEMP) CA 31.0.0.0 IANA (RESERVED-12) Norway 32.0.0.0 Norsk Informasjonsteknologi (NET-NORGESNETT) OH 33.0.0.0 DLA Systems Automation Center (NET-DCMC) TX 34.0.0.0 Halliburton Company (NET-HALLIBURTON) MI 35.0.0.0 Merit Network Inc. (NET-MERIT) CA 36.0.0.0 Stanford University (NET-SU-NET-TEMP) CA 37.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED-37A) VA 38.0.0.0 Performance Systems International (NET-PSINETA) CA 39.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED-39A) IN 40.0.0.0 Eli Lilly and Company (NET-LILLY-NET) CA 41.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (RESERVED-41A) CA 42.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED) (NET-RESERVED-42) Japan 43.0.0.0 Japan Inet (NET-JAPAN-A) CA 44.0.0.0 Amateur Radio Digital Communications (NET-AMPRNET) CA 45.0.0.0 Interop Show Network (NET-SHOWNETA) MA 46.0.0.0 Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc. (NET-BBNNET) Canada 47.0.0.0 Bell-Northern Research (NET-BNR) NY 48.0.0.0 Prudential Securities Inc. (NET-PRUBACHE) 49.0.0.0 No match for "49.0.0.0". 50.0.0.0 No match for "50.0.0.0". UK 51.0.0.0 Department of Social Security of UK (NET-ITSANET) DE 52.0.0.0 E.I. duPont de Nemours and Co., Inc. (NET-DUPONT1) Germany 53.0.0.0 cap debis ccs (NET-DB-NET2) NJ 54.0.0.0 Merck and Co., Inc. (NET-MERCK2) VA 55.0.0.0 Army National Guard Bureau (NET-RCAS2) NC 56.0.0.0 U.S. Postal Service (NET-USPS1) France 57.0.0.0 SITA-Societe Internationale de Telecommunications Aeronautiques (NET-SITA2) CA 58.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED) (NET-RESERVED-58) CA 59.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED) (NET-RESERVED-59) CA 60.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED) (NET-RESERVED-60) CA 61.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED) (NET-RESERVED-61) CA 62.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED) (NET-RESERVED-62) CA 63.0.0.0 Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) (RESERVED) (NET-RESERVED-63) <...> @@@@@@@@@ This situation is similar to what happens when you convert a country from a government where the land is owned by the state to a situation where private ownership is allowed. There is a ONE-TIME chicken and egg problem that has to be solved. Once that occurs, then the free market dictates the rest. @ 2: This is a real world economy now, outdated academic practices which are @ currently being enforced are as wrong as the sale of IPs. @ The real world economy pre-dates the Internet by a few years... @ 3: Wether you, ARIN, or anyone else likes it or not, IPs are for all intents @ and purposes a resellable commodity, otherwise ARIN et all can (ala Jim @ Flemming) be called on as being a Monopoly. @ Again, ARIN is a local solution for an InterNIC/NSF/NSI/SAIC problem. I suggest that you study that situation and business restructuring. It is not in the best interest of the Internet to have obscur, complex, internal problems shape the future of the Global Internet. I suggest that you think global and act local. By local...I mean local to you...if you "own" [#1] IP addresses then you might want to lease [#2] them. If you lease them, then you might want to register[#3], resolve[#4], and route[#5] them. Some people will be involved in all 5 functions and some in only one of the functions. As owners [#1] step forward to start charging "rent", the people currently leasing the space without charge have several options... 1. Pay the rent 2. Buy the space 3. Find another place to homestead Prior art will determine who can sell the addresses. I suggest that people interested in these areas, carefully study that. @ 4: The simple fact of the matter is that the RFCs are not at any time, the @ law of the land. They are at best guidelines and good ideas set down for @ others to follow, but there is no rule stating that you _must_ follow them. @ The law of the land is the law of the land...most lawyers have never heard of an RFC...if you do not believe me just ask them... @ 5: Before you start chasing wild geese selling Class B address space I @ suggest you go back and check on all those folks that got space long before @ there were any 'restrictions and justifications'. I have no doubt that there @ is a veritable feast of IPs sitting unused at MIT, USC, and other such @ institutions that would be better used elsewhere instead of sitting in a @ corner like a dusty grad student. @ Those people are homesteading. When the "owners" of those spaces come knocking on their door for a rent check, then they will have to make some decisions. @ 6: Finally and most importantly, stop pretending you still live in the world @ of happy academia where everyone is willing to follow the rules you set down @ just because you're the proffessor and they're the student. This just does @ not work anymore, you may scoff at people like Jim Flemming but for each one @ you knock down there is another one to learn from his mistakes and take his @ place. Do not pretend you can sit idle and call people who don't fall in @ line behind you names so that you can sit back in your dusty chair and @ pretend nothing is wrong. The internet as a whole is growing at an unthought @ of pace and your failure to keep up will not be fixed by being tight assed @ and making it harder on those that follow. Eventually someone else will take @ the forefront and throw you off your high horse like yesterdays newspaper. @ You purport to be leaders of the internet, then its about time you acted @ like it and start to solve the problems instead of trying to make the @ problems go away by being ignorant of reality. @ The "world of happy academia" is not a place where people follow the rules. That is one of the reasons why many people like that world. They have tenure, they teach what they want, they post office hours as they like, they dress as they like, and they use the university and government supplied computers as they like. The commercial world follows the rules...the rules needed to bring order to the IPv4 address space are very simple.... -- Jim Fleming Unir Corporation e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net JimFleming(a)unety.s0.g0 (EDNS/IPv8)

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