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ISP comparisons
by william＠pacific.net.ph 20 Mar '98

20 Mar '98

Hi! Just wondering if any of you have any comparative analysis of MCI vs. Sprint vs. AT&T vs. UUNet. I'm doing a research on this currently. Please reply privately to william(a)pacific.net.ph. Thanks! William

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Internet Architecture Diagram - Comments Please
by Russ Haynal http://navigators.com . 20 Mar '98

20 Mar '98

Hello all, I have just completed my initial creation of an "Internet Architecture : Meta Diagram" ( http://navigators.com/internet_architecture.html ) My Intention with this page is to answer the Question: "What are the major pieces of the Internet, and who are the major players in each segment?" I have created a "very tall diagram" with 8 sections, covering the connection from a Users's PC -> local Loop -> ISP POP - > Backbones -> online content -> etc. In each section, I hope to mention most of the significant parts of the architecture. I also link to the top couple of vendors in each category, and then link to a more extensive list of vendors. What I am looking for is a sanity check of the diagram, and most importantly, your opinion as to who are the largest 3-4 vendors in each section. I recognize that the diagram is US-centric and contains some leading edge components as well (LMDS, cable modems, etc) I am continuing to refine the page, so any feedback you provide should be incorporated almost immediately. Thanks in advance. Russ Haynal http://navigators.com/internet_architecture.html ____________________________________________________________________ Russ Haynal - Internet Consultant, Instructor, Speaker "Helping organizations gain the most benefit from the Internet" russ(a)navigators.com http://navigators.com 703-729-1757 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Author:"Internet; A Knowledge Odyssey" (Top-rated CD-ROM Tutorial) See MindQ Publishing- http://www.mindq.com/cdt/company/products.html

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RE: Internet Architecture Diagram - Comments Please
by Tony Hain 19 Mar '98

19 Mar '98

Randy, To be fair Russ was only asking for a sanity check from those who should know the architecture. If his audience for the diagram were intended to be Nanog, you would have a point, but it is clearly intended to impart the smallest amount of clue to those with none. In that sense he has done well, but he lost the architecture perspective at the end points. ====================================================================== Tony Hain tonyhain(a)microsoft.com <mailto:tonyhain@microsoft.com> Technical solutions to political problems R us. -----Original Message----- From: Randy Bush [mailto:randy@psg.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 7:50 AM To: Russ Haynal http://navigators.com . Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Internet Architecture Diagram - Comments Please > >And it has no routers in the network diagrams. What a tremendous savings! > > ??? - huh? Are we looking at the same Diagram? No. You are not looking at the DIAGRAM. > I do recognize that there are additional details that could be added in > some places, but I am trying to follow a 90/10 rule in order to fit the > diagram within the limits of a web page (and my limited artistic > abilities) When the 90/10 rule leaves routers out of internet architecture, the posting does not belong on nanog. I leave it to others to judge where it might belong. randy

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Re: New Mailing List... anyone?
by sob＠academ.com 19 Mar '98

19 Mar '98

I think that this is a great topic to discuss on the long existing and little used outage-discuss(a)academ.com list. I have forwarded the original message there. -- Stan | Academ Consulting Services |internet: sob(a)academ.com Olan | For more info on academ, see this |uucp: {mcsun|amdahl}!academ!sob Barber | URL- http://www.academ.com/academ |Opinions expressed are only mine.

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Re: Internet Architecture Diagram - Comments Please
by Dan Wing 19 Mar '98

19 Mar '98

In article <v0300782bb135f100b9c8(a)[198.3.136.121]>, dean(a)av8.com (Dean Anderson) wrote: >There pretty clearly *are* routers in the diagram. Those would be those >little blue and green interconnected dots. You can tell by the "Large >Capacity Routers and Switches" label. Perhaps you didn't see the same >diagram I saw. User's Comm Equipment --------------------- There would be routers around the firewall (or the firewall is a router doing simple packet filtering). There would typically be routers inside the corporation. There would often be routers on a LAN (depending on your definition of "local"). Local Loop Carrier ------------------ Leased lines (T1s, 56Kb, etc.) will typically have routers on each end of the line. Should include @home (www.home.com) ISP's POP --------- You dial into a router. Cisco has a web site, www.cisco.com. User Services ------------- Not always provided by the ISP. For example, DNS, email, USENET, and other services are almost always provided by your company. They are provided by your ISP if you're dialing into your ISP. Again, routers could be between these services. Should include web servers as one of these services; some ISPs use web servers for trouble-ticket reporting. ISP backbone ------------ The first time we've seen routers Online content -------------- Typically provided by an ISP (which could be your own ISP) or a corporation. You're really going "back up" the same chain of possibilities that we went down. Understanding this would help people a lot -- each site is similar to their own and made similar decisions for who hosts email, DNS, firewalling, etc. Origins of Online Content ------------------------- Same as 'online content' -- you're going "back up". >I might suggest that more detail on the variation of the corporate network >could be helpful. Internal networks of large corporations like Hitachi (7th >largest corporation in the world) are many times more complicated than even >large ISP interconnects. I find this is the biggest problem that most >people I talk to have. They understand a dialup connection. They >understand an ethernet. They don't understand that the technology to scale >their company from 5 to 50 to 300 to 10,000 is much different from one >scale to another. They mainly don't understand the scaling issues. I agree. The diagram of the corporation should somehow indicate this. Not sure how it could fit into the current web page as it is designed, though. -Dan Wing

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None
by Dave Morse 19 Mar '98

19 Mar '98

>To: nanog(a)umich.edu >From: Dave Morse <davmorse(a)umich.edu> >Subject: [Fwd: How to building a NOC] > >>Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:59:32 -0500 >>To: nanog(a)merit.exu >>From: Dave Morse <davmorse(a)umich.edu> >>Subject: [Fwd: How to building a NOC] >> >>Well, I've looked for reading material on the subject of building, growing, managing a NOC for several years. Guess what, there really isn't any. You did the next best thing by asking the question. I'm the NOC manager for Merit and the University of Michigan. Bill Norton and myself played key roles in building and moving to production this operation. There were many questions to be answered before the proper direction to proceed could be ascertained. David Greer mentioned several of these, such as, What level of monitoring (router port, hub, host), Are you going to monitor applications/servers, Are you going to monitor protocol, Are you going to be reactive or proactive, Are you going to provide reporting with trend analysis/captivity planning, Are you going to be self sufficient meaning you do your own System Administration, tool development. This doesn't cover everything, but as you can see that are a lot of questions to be answered before starting the planning of the project. >> >>I agree with David again in his statement that most people do not realize what the cost of building and running a NOC are. When looking at providing a 7/24 service, equipment/tool/staff/start-up, not counting conditioned space can easily be a million dollars. The best thing (I think) is to get someone who has done this before and is very familiar with NOC activities to include Call center applications, tools, staffing needs, space requirement...etc to help you start the planning process. >> >>One other thing, being the Switching Manager for the UofM (45k line SL-100 switch) and working for Centel Telephone Company as a CO supervisor, then supervisor of the Technical Action Center (TAC,) and now the Manager of the NOC, I have to say, I don't think the two are not the same! >> >>P.S. John, I worked for Raytheon for about 8 years. I started at Fort Hood Texas, Went to El Paso Texas and then to Germany for about 4 years. When I left Germany they wanted me to move to Mass, but being stationed at Fort Devens while in the Army, I didn't think I could get use to the weather. Maybe we could talk off line. >> >> >>>From: John_W_Connors(a)res.raytheon.com 10:50 >>>Subject: Building a NOC >>>To: nanog(a)merit.edu >>> >>>Would anyone have information or knowledge of books, WWW Sites, or >>>other >>>means that would provide details on constructing a state of the >>>art NOC to >>>support 75000+ nodes in a LAN/MAN/WAN environment >>> >>>Thanks in advance >>>JC >>>======================== >>> >>>No books, it's all experience. >>> >>> >>>Martin Hannigan V:617.500.0108 >>>Director - Data Networks F:617.500.0002 >>>XCOM Technologies, INC. hannigan(a)xcom.net >>>Cambridge, MA http://www.xcom.net >>> >>>------------------------ >>> >>>I think I'd disagree with that. Where would all you folks be if >>>you never >>>picked up a book? You wouldn't be reading this list. Seriously, >>>while >>>there's not an ORA "How to Build a NOC" book with some cute animal >>>on the >>>cover, there is some information out there worth reading. >>> >>>I'd suggest digging through some telco info (if you'd like to >>>consider a >>>CO a NOC). Also, there should be plenty of people on this list >>>that >>>work in or have even designed decent sized NOCs. You can also >>>cheat and >>>go browsing as a prospective customer at someplace like Exodus or >>>any >>>other colo facility that is well-managed and modern. You can >>>actually >>>learn quite a bit by just looking around... >>> >>>Hopefully some of the startup NSPs will answer here, as the >>>experience >>>should still be fresh in their minds... >>> >>>Charles >>> >>>~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>Charles Sprickman Internet Channel >>>INCH System Administration Team (212)243-5200 >>>spork(a)inch.com access(a)inch.com >>> >>>--------------------------- >>> >>>You mean there's not a "Building an ISP for Dummies" book? >>> >>>Listen out there, NANOG members--big royalty opportunity here >>> >>>;-) >>> >>>(Sorry, folks--there are days when I just can't resist my most >>>evil >>>impulses). >>>Bill Goldstein >>>Senior Internet Specialist >>>AT&T >>>wgoldstein(a)att.com >>>TEL:(412)642-7288 >>>-------------------------------- >>> >>>Bill, >>> >>>Skipping John's message for a minute with the number of small >>>ISP's out >>>there it is actually forseeable that a book on starting an ISP >>>might be >>>possible to a limited extent. >>>I would have welcomed such a book when I set up our internet gear >>>(we would >>>qualify as a medium sized ISP in our own right.) >>> >>>Now to get back to John's message, although there is some >>>information out >>>there that could be read there are a number of questions that you >>>should ask >>>yourself as far as scope of the project, number of sites, >>>technical level at >>>the remote sites, do you need to monitor Sniffers and the like or >>>just plain >>>Openview/Spectrum. Also does this NOC have to monitor and >>>dispatch repair >>>techs only or does it have to answer questions like how do I >>>change my >>>password on the server in my office. >>> >>>What about monitoring of the various servers in the enterprise? >>>Novell? >>>NT? Unix flavors, etc. Put all this together and the project >>>manager in >>>charge better have done it before at least once, or else this >>>would quickly >>>become a moneypit. >>> >>>Another major consideration is how much money and floor space is >>>available >>>for the NOC. I have seen several companies under-estimate the >>>floor space >>>needed and end up shoving stuff into corners to get it all into >>>the >>>allocated space, or scrimping money because the budget didn't live >>>up to the >>>pipe dreams of over eager planning personnel. >>> >>>David Greer >>>Project Manager, Wide Area Telecommunications >>>General Nutrition Companies, Inc. >>>David-Greer(a)GNC-HQ.COM >>> >>>---------------- End for now ------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>> "It takes a person of your caliber to arrive at that decision" >>>------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>UMNet MichNet Merit Route Servers-Next Gen Internet2 >>>------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>Network Engineer & Systems Admin Network Operations Center >>>mgf(a)umich.edu Univ of Michigan IT Division >>> >>>UM Personal Homepage: http://www.umich.edu/~mgf >>>Michnet Network Events: http://www.merit.edu/michnet/statistics >>>RSng, Peering & Stats: http://www.rsng.net/routeservers.html >>> >>> >>>Received: from redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (0(a)redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.36]) >>> by noc.ns.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA23166 >>> for <mgf(a)noc.ns.itd.umich.edu>; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:43:51 -0500 (EST) >>>Received: (from root@localhost) >>> by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.5) with X.500 id MAA09121; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:43:50 -0500 (EST) >>>Received: from merit.edu (merit.edu [198.108.1.42]) >>> by redheat.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.5) with ESMTP id MAA09104; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:43:48 -0500 (EST) >>>Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) >>> by merit.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA06493; >>> Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:42:46 -0500 (EST) >>>Received: by merit.edu (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:23:18 -0500 >>>Received: (from majordom@localhost) >>> by merit.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA05893 >>> for nanog-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:23:17 -0500 (EST) >>>Received: from bbnplanet.com (cam-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com [199.94.215.242]) >>> by merit.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA05889 >>> for <nanog(a)merit.edu>; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:23:11 -0500 (EST) >>>Received: from gatekeeper.ray.com (gatekeeper.ray.com [138.125.162.1]) >>> by bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12928 >>> for <nanog(a)merit.edu>; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:23:06 -0500 (EST) >>>Received: (mailer@localhost) by gatekeeper.ray.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27923 for <nanog(a)merit.edu>; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:17:15 -0500 >>>Received: from ressud-as01.res.ray.com/138.125.97.69(<John_W_Connors(a)res.raytheon.com>) >>> by gatekeeper.ray.com >>> id sma.890063472.015471; Mon Mar 16 10:51:12 1998 >>>Received: by ressud-as01.res.ray.com(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id 852565C9.00570BC0 ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:50:46 -0500 >>>From: John_W_Connors(a)res.raytheon.com >>>X-Lotus-FromDomain: RES >>>To: nanog(a)merit.edu >>>Message-ID: <852565C9.0056A7A1.00(a)ressud-as01.res.ray.com> >>>Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:50:12 -0500 >>>Subject: Building a NOC >>>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>>Sender: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> >>>Would anyone have information or knowledge of books, WWW Sites, or other >>>means that would provide details on constructing a state of the art NOC to >>>support 75000+ nodes in a LAN/MAN/WAN environment >>> >>>Thanks in advance >>>JC >>> >>> >>> >>>

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MAE-EAST..
by Robert Mathews - ICICX 19 Mar '98

19 Mar '98

Anyone experiencing severe forward route problems at MAE-EAST?

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Internic hosage
by Jon Lewis 19 Mar '98

19 Mar '98

Is anyone else having trouble recently with Internic garbling domain templates and then sending them back as invalid? Many of the lines come back with more .'s than they were sent in with, and they seem to consistently be doing variations on the following: >Secondary Name Server(s) >8a. Secondary Server Hostname.......:jabba.tlh.fdt.net >8b. Secondary Server Netaddress.....:199.44...96.16 It didn't have the extra .'s in the IP address any of the 4 times we submitted this particular domain registration. Usually, it comes back with one extra in the IP...this last one had a bonus of 2 extra. I guess when they decided to lower the fee from $50 to $35, they decided to break their automated system so they could justify raising it back to $50 so they can hire more staff to unbreak things. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jon Lewis <jlewis(a)fdt.net> | Unsolicited commercial e-mail will Network Administrator | be proof-read for $199/message. Florida Digital Turnpike | ______http://inorganic5.fdt.net/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key____

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FW: IP Generation program/devices
by Stephan Chayer 18 Mar '98

18 Mar '98

You might take a look on NetXray made by Cinco Networks that is now Network General that is now Network Associates... Ask Victor Amashta: victora(a)ngc.com www.ngc.com or www.nai.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Jean-Lou Dupont > Sent: 18 mars, 1998 16:02 > To: Stephan Chayer > Subject: FW: IP Generation program/devices > > > > ---------- > From: Lewis Eatherton[SMTP:eathertl@segasoft.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 12:39 PM > To: David J. Schmidt; Michael F Sullivan > Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: Re: IP Generation program/devices > > Also, you might want to take a look at Anvil, from Mightnight > Networks. > Its a very nice tool that runs on various Unix flavors and will test > just > about any part of the RFC on what ever protocols you order... > > At 11:25 PM 3/17/98 -0800, David J. Schmidt wrote: > >On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Michael F Sullivan wrote: > > > >> To do some load testing, we need a "tool" (h/w device and/or s/w) > to > generate > >> a programmable amount of IP traffic on a segment (say 32Mbps on a > fast > enet > >> segment or fddi ring) and a way to measure it (w/ hopefully > something > cheaper > >> than a sniffer). Anyone have suggestions on what to use? > >> > >> Thanks > > > >For the high end try Netcom Systems SmartBits. > > > >Their systems can hold various interface cards (from 10-20 per > chasis) and > >you can run up to 4 chassis in a stack. > > > >We are using them to fully stress test our Gigabit Bridge/Router and > I've > >been running tests with 24 gigabit cards into our device and we're > also > >using their 10/100mb cards to test our 10/100mb cards. > > > >The software can generate various IP frames from templates or you can > use > >a raw packet editor. > > > >NOT cheap! But it can generate and receive/trigger/count at full > speed if > >that's what you need. > > > >David.Schmidt(a)ior.com Packet Engines, Inc. (509)922-9190 > >Spokane, Washington http://www.packetengines.com/ > > > > > > > Lewis Eatherton > Network Architect > SegaSoft, Inc > 650.654.2318 >

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NANOG 13 Dates June 7-9
by William B. Norton 18 Mar '98

18 Mar '98

Hi all - FYI - We just locked in the Hyatt in Dearborn, Michigan for NANOG 13 on the dates June 7-9. Final paperwork will be completed by the end of the week and we should have the NANOG web pages updated at that time. BTW - from a quick look at the airfares, a Saturday night stayover will save you beaucoup dollars. The Hyatt Regency is centrally located to a variety of activities including Greenfield Village and the Henry Ford Museum, so there should be lots to do Saturday. We'll send out an announcement when the new web pages are up. Cheers - Bill -------------------------------------------------------------- William B. Norton <wbn(a)merit.edu> (734) 764-9430 (New Area Code)

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