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Re: Is it time for an disruption analysis working group for the Internet?
by Dean Anderson 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

At 11:27 AM 11/14/1998 -0500, Jay R. Ashworth wrote: >On Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 07:38:12PM -0500, Dean Anderson wrote: >> In aviation and probably the power industry, there is sense (and a reality) >> that lives and property are at stake. While the same may soon be true of >> the internet, there is still a perception that no one dies if the 'internet >> is down', and no property is destroyed though income is certainly lost. So >> there is no compelling need to force people to cooperate. > >So, if my company loses $5M because the net falls over, and I get >fired, and end up on the street, having lost my house, family, dog, >pickup truck, and beer, that's not important enough to prevent? Yes, the thought of losing beer would panic me too. I'll buy you a beer at the CBC in Boston, if it'll make you feel any better ;-) Its 5M of income stream, not 5M of property or assets. CompUSA loses money if the store is closed, because someone dug up a power line, fiber cable, or crashes the company server which validates credit cards (6 stores closed yesterday). But they will probably sell more tomorrow. The loss is transitory. Its not enough to make the government step in and put people in Jail who cause the net to fall over by mistake, or prevent them from ever working on a network again. So sure, everyone 'would like to' prevent these things. But the issue is the severity and need to exert control. But, (real life example) if Karl Denningers system screws up the net, are you really willing to see him go to jail? Lose his "license to operate servers and routers"? I think not. >> Even the FAA's enforcement is for the most part pretty lassiz faire. It is >> well known in aviation circles that FAA regulations are "written in blood", >> by analyzing accidents and developing a set of rules to avoid them. Failure >> to follow the rules may result in your own death, and possibly others. >> Death is a pretty severe penalty. Many FAA enforcement actions are >> 'post-crash'. The rules aren't there to satisfy the ego of a bureaucrat, >> and the penalties are enforced more harshly by nature than by the FAA. > >Tell it to Bob Hoover... Good point. But he had a brain cloud, just like in "Joe vs. the Volcano" with Tom Hanks. ;-) At least, thats what the FAA said. Never mind the two guys caught trying to falsify complaints against him. Then again, Bob did get reinstated. The FAA now only requires him to go to the Mayo Clinic for a full diagnostic checkout once a year. Such a deal they have. It's only about $25,000. Anyway, thats an abuse of bureaucratic power. It doesn't change the legitimate purposes of the bureaucracy. --Dean ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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RE: Hold on to your news servers
by Chris Mauritz 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

Seems like if you were truly providing a useful service, you wouldn't need to be so furtive about it. C Chris Mauritz Director, Systems Administration Rare Medium, Inc. chrism(a)raremedium.com -----Original Message----- From: Karl Denninger [mailto:karl@Denninger.Net] Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 3:00 PM To: Dean Anderson; Edward S. Marshall Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Hold on to your news servers On Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 02:46:05PM -0500, Dean Anderson wrote: > I don't know why you'd need to know who he gets news feeds from. Cancel > leakage would be obvious enough to determine who is getting feeds from Karl. > > I presume you'd complain to a) his internet providers/peers, b) his news > feeds that leak cancels, and possibly c) anyone who is known to get a feed > from him. And their providers/peers. > > I'd probably start with MCS which provides Karls service, and go on to > good.net, nap.net, etc, presuming Karls boast about MCS not caring to help > stop his leakage is true. Then repeat with the sources of the leakages. Uh, excuse me, but I don't have any affiliation with MCS nor do they have anything to do with this service. If you want to do nothing other than piss them off or get thrown in their admin's "ignore this kook" list, go ahead. Who I buy my *personal* service from is none of your business. Nor your concern, since that *personal* service obviously can't be the source of this. Besides, I've already told the world that I intend to colocate the servers at various points around the country, and that I have offers from people to do that - who are WELL AWARE of what I'm up to. > I think as long as Karls system is completely separate from usenet, it > could be fine. His scheme can possibly work if there is never a server > that carries both regular Usenet and Karl's feed. But that is an > unreasonable proposition. The problem is that someone will want to cross > post karls feed into their feed. > > Remember, the Soviet Coup against Gorbachev failed (in part) because they > couldn't manage to partition or shut off usenet news feeds, and news of > events in Moscow leaked out. > > --Dean -- -- Karl Denninger (karl(a)denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. > > At 10:13 PM 11/13/1998 -0600, Karl Denninger wrote: > >On Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 09:42:41PM -0600, Edward S. Marshall wrote: > >> On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Dean Anderson wrote: > >> > Anyone who cancels someone elses post who is not a moderator or the > >> > original poster should lose their account/job at ISP/etc. > >> > > >> > So lets start sending in complaints... > >> > >> And you'd complain to...who? Karl's an independant entity now. > > > >Correct :-) > > > >What's even more fun is that since the system doesn't EMIT any articles > >it consumes (it emits only cancels, sourced there) you can't figure out > >where it gets its feeds from.... good luck getting the system's feeds > >cut off under those circumstances :-) > > > >-- > >-- > >Karl Denninger (karl(a)denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl > >I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give > >up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. > > > > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com > LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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RE: Hold on to your news servers
by Chris Mauritz 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

It's unfortunate that some folks are so gung ho about their position that they would do something like that....oh wait...that applies to you too. C Chris Mauritz Director, Systems Administration Rare Medium, Inc. chrism(a)raremedium.com -----Original Message----- From: Karl Denninger [mailto:karl@Denninger.Net] Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 4:07 PM To: Chris Mauritz; Dean Anderson; Edward S. Marshall Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Hold on to your news servers Given that a large number of people have threatened to commit felonious acts (ping floods, etc) against these machines, I believe being "furtive" is quite appropriate. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl(a)denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. On Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 04:03:49PM -0500, Chris Mauritz wrote: > Seems like if you were truly providing a useful service, you wouldn't need > to be so furtive about it. > > C > > Chris Mauritz > Director, Systems Administration > Rare Medium, Inc. > chrism(a)raremedium.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Karl Denninger [mailto:karl@Denninger.Net] > Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 3:00 PM > To: Dean Anderson; Edward S. Marshall > Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: Re: Hold on to your news servers > > > On Mon, Nov 16, 1998 at 02:46:05PM -0500, Dean Anderson wrote: > > I don't know why you'd need to know who he gets news feeds from. Cancel > > leakage would be obvious enough to determine who is getting feeds from > Karl. > > > > I presume you'd complain to a) his internet providers/peers, b) his news > > feeds that leak cancels, and possibly c) anyone who is known to get a feed > > from him. And their providers/peers. > > > > I'd probably start with MCS which provides Karls service, and go on to > > good.net, nap.net, etc, presuming Karls boast about MCS not caring to help > > stop his leakage is true. Then repeat with the sources of the leakages. > > Uh, excuse me, but I don't have any affiliation with MCS nor do they have > anything to do with this service. If you want to do nothing other than > piss them off or get thrown in their admin's "ignore this kook" list, go > ahead. > > Who I buy my *personal* service from is none of your business. Nor your > concern, since that *personal* service obviously can't be the source of > this. > > Besides, I've already told the world that I intend to colocate the servers > at various points around the country, and that I have offers from people > to do that - who are WELL AWARE of what I'm up to. > > > I think as long as Karls system is completely separate from usenet, it > > could be fine. His scheme can possibly work if there is never a server > > that carries both regular Usenet and Karl's feed. But that is an > > unreasonable proposition. The problem is that someone will want to cross > > post karls feed into their feed. > > > > Remember, the Soviet Coup against Gorbachev failed (in part) because they > > couldn't manage to partition or shut off usenet news feeds, and news of > > events in Moscow leaked out. > > > > --Dean > > -- > -- > Karl Denninger (karl(a)denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl > I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give > up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. > > > > > > At 10:13 PM 11/13/1998 -0600, Karl Denninger wrote: > > >On Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 09:42:41PM -0600, Edward S. Marshall wrote: > > >> On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Dean Anderson wrote: > > >> > Anyone who cancels someone elses post who is not a moderator or the > > >> > original poster should lose their account/job at ISP/etc. > > >> > > > >> > So lets start sending in complaints... > > >> > > >> And you'd complain to...who? Karl's an independant entity now. > > > > > >Correct :-) > > > > > >What's even more fun is that since the system doesn't EMIT any articles > > >it consumes (it emits only cancels, sourced there) you can't figure out > > >where it gets its feeds from.... good luck getting the system's feeds > > >cut off under those circumstances :-) > > > > > >-- > > >-- > > >Karl Denninger (karl(a)denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl > > >I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give > > >up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. > > > > > > > > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com > > LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Reponses to my questions about telecom mapping tools....
by Michael L. Barrow 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote requesting information on tools to help find out about circuit pricing and other misc. info about CO's, NPA/NXXs, etc. I got these reponses: 1. http://www.lodedata.com/index.html 2. Related sites link off of the above site. 3. http://www.stuffsoftware.com 4. http://www.triquad.com Enjoy! -- Michael L. Barrow <mlbarrow(a)eni.net> Principal Security Engineer, Epoch Internet Corporate Security T:949.399.8413, F:949.474.8127 PGP Fingerprint = 6E56 4590 F1AF 0CCA 2563 07C2 26EF B164 F5C4 BE8C

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Re: Hold on to your news servers
by Dean Anderson 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

I don't know why you'd need to know who he gets news feeds from. Cancel leakage would be obvious enough to determine who is getting feeds from Karl. I presume you'd complain to a) his internet providers/peers, b) his news feeds that leak cancels, and possibly c) anyone who is known to get a feed from him. And their providers/peers. I'd probably start with MCS which provides Karls service, and go on to good.net, nap.net, etc, presuming Karls boast about MCS not caring to help stop his leakage is true. Then repeat with the sources of the leakages. I think as long as Karls system is completely separate from usenet, it could be fine. His scheme can possibly work if there is never a server that carries both regular Usenet and Karl's feed. But that is an unreasonable proposition. The problem is that someone will want to cross post karls feed into their feed. Remember, the Soviet Coup against Gorbachev failed (in part) because they couldn't manage to partition or shut off usenet news feeds, and news of events in Moscow leaked out. --Dean At 10:13 PM 11/13/1998 -0600, Karl Denninger wrote: >On Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 09:42:41PM -0600, Edward S. Marshall wrote: >> On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Dean Anderson wrote: >> > Anyone who cancels someone elses post who is not a moderator or the >> > original poster should lose their account/job at ISP/etc. >> > >> > So lets start sending in complaints... >> >> And you'd complain to...who? Karl's an independant entity now. > >Correct :-) > >What's even more fun is that since the system doesn't EMIT any articles >it consumes (it emits only cancels, sourced there) you can't figure out >where it gets its feeds from.... good luck getting the system's feeds >cut off under those circumstances :-) > >-- >-- >Karl Denninger (karl(a)denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl >I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give >up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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RE: RBL quandry - opinions hereby solicited
by Chris Mauritz 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

No. That's not really a valid comparison. You have a choice about which credit card company you deal with. Network Solutions is spamming you based on information you are required to provide to them. If you refuse to provide them with the info, you get no domain registration. Cute, eh? C Chris Mauritz Director, Systems Administration Rare Medium, Inc. chrism(a)raremedium.com -----Original Message----- From: Ron_Johnson(a)enron.net [mailto:Ron_Johnson@enron.net] Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 12:46 PM To: Paul A Vixie Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: RBL quandry - opinions hereby solicited I don't really see this as SPAM. It's is annoying, but I would place it in the same classification as a credit card company, one that I hold a card from. sending me junk mail. Since they (Network solutions), have developed this mailing list from infomation you provided to them in registering domain(s). They are entitled to contact you. You may, of course complain, and they (Network solutions), are of course are entitled to take no action. Ron Johnson Paul A Vixie <paul(a)vix.com> on 11/16/98 02:17:36 AM To: nanog(a)merit.edu cc: (bcc: Ron Johnson/Enron Communications) Subject: RBL quandry - opinions hereby solicited The RBL team and I are kind of wondering what to do about some spam we got. Because blackholing NSI would be of operational concern to a lot of you, I've decided to ponder this question out loud: ------- Forwarded Message Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:50:26 PST To: rbl(a)maps.vix.com Subject: Paul - value call on this Technically, this is an opt-out customer-relationship spam. I think it is a special case, because _there is no where else to go_. 208.226.58.70 should be RBL'ed, IMHO. Help me. > Return-Path: owner-admin1(a)LISTS.NETSOL.COM > Received: from pasteur.netsol.com ([208.226.58.70]) by ns2.galaxy-net.net > (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00585; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:50:06 -0800 (PST) > Received: from pasteur (pasteur [208.226.58.70]) > by pasteur.netsol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA23788; > Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:40:31 -0500 (EST) > Received: from LISTS.NETSOL.COM by LISTS.NETSOL.COM (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release > 1.8c) with spool id 0342 for ADMIN1(a)LISTS.NETSOL.COM; Tue, 10 Nov > 1998 15:01:15 -0500 > Received: (from listmngr@localhost) by pasteur.netsol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id > PAA18548 for admin1(a)lists.netsol.com; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:01:14 > -0500 > (EST) > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Message-ID: <199811102001.PAA18548(a)pasteur.netsol.com> > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:01:14 -0500 > Reply-To: admin-remove(a)LISTS.NETSOL.COM > Sender: Owner-Admin <owner-admin(a)LISTS.NETSOL.COM> > From: List Manager Account <listmngr(a)LISTS.NETSOL.COM> > Subject: Network Solutions' E-Commerce Update > To: ADMIN1(a)LISTS.NETSOL.COM > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > ########################### > > Dear Customer, > > You are a valued customer and we want to help increase and > protect the value of your domain name. As a free added benefit of > your domain name registration, we would like to send you our > "E-Commerce Update" from time to time. In these updates, we will > try to identify helpful information and news that you can use to > enhance the value of your Web address. If you do not wish to > receive this newsletter in the future, simply respond to this > e-mail with the word "remove" in the first line of the message. > If you have any questions or comments, please send them to > hostmaster(a)internic.net. > > Network Solutions - the world's leading provider of domain name > services -- together with VeriSign -- the world's leading Web > security provider -- has published a new informative guide to > on-line security, "Securing Your Web Site for Business." > > "Securing Your Web Site for Business" outlines the options you > have to secure and protect your Web site. By downloading your > free copy (http://www.verisign.com/nsi/whitepaper) you will be > able to learn how easy it is to secure your site in order to > protect yourself and your customers. > > Issues covered in "Securing Your Web Site for Business" include: > > * Why on-line security problems could slow the growth of your > business > * How to maximize your on-line security at a low cost > * How to accept credit cards and sell products on-line---securely > * What a Digital ID is > * Why you need a Digital ID > * How to obtain a Digital ID for your Web site > > As an additional service to our customers, Network Solutions and > VeriSign bring you a special free trial version Secure Server ID. > VeriSign Secure Server IDs are the security solution currently > used by over 90 percent of Web sites conducting secure online > commerce and this free trial will allow you to experience how > easy Web site security can be. Please visit us at > http://www.verisign.com/nsi/trial to start experiencing the > benefits of on-line security today. > > We would also like to take this opportunity to remind you of the > importance of keeping your Network Solutions domain name records > up to date. Incorrect data can result in your next invoice being > delivered to the wrong location, and may cause delays when you > request other services such as a Secure Server Digital ID. To > review your domain name records and the associated information go > to http://www.internic.net/verisign/update.html. > > Thank you for being a Network Solutions customer. We look forward > to serving your future domain name needs. > > Sincerely, > > Doug Wolford > Senior Vice President ------- End of Forwarded Message

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Gabe Resigns
by James Rishaw 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

CEO of Network Solutions resigns http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28830,00.html -- jamie rishaw (efnet:gavroche) American Information Systems, Inc. Don't anthropomorphise computers. They don't like it. "Did they just ask Don King to come to the lobby?!" - davidr

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Network Solutions CEO resigns.
by Mike Perez 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

FYI. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28830,00.html - Mike -- Mike Perez <mike(a)ef.net> PGP fingerprint = 66 BF C5 DE 78 C6 01 63 76 D9 BF E7 70 24 55 50

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Re: Journal of Internet Disasters
by Mathias Koerber 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

-----Original Message----- From: Paul Vixie <paul(a)vix.com> To: nanog(a)merit.edu <nanog(a)merit.edu> Date: Saturday, November 14, 1998 1:12 AM Subject: Re: Journal of Internet Disasters [...] > >other servers are more conservative, and had switched to manual daily FTP >of the COM zone longer ago than F has done. (with manual daily FTP you >get the advantages of gzip, and of the pretense of "zone master" status >while you manually retry after timeouts. AXFR needs those properties.) > wouldn't a new transfer type (AZFR/IZFR) be useful here, being basically AXFR/IXFR but piped through gzip on each end? These would need to be negotiated (based onversion number) of course, but would help a lot with large zones like COM...

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Network Solutions on TV
by Leo Bicknell 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

That's right, in TV ads... "Network Solutions activates more dot com domains than any other ISP"....."use Network Solutions, the dot com people." This actually raises an operational concern. A little traceroute will show you that www.networksolutions.com and the worldnic stuff are down the same pipes as the internic.net stuff. With the DNS problems of the past few days, one has to ask, would "internic" activities have worked just fine if Network Solutions had not been using some {small,large} amount of the bandwidth for their other commercial activities. Not that I hold out any hope of the two activities using separate facilities, but it would be nice. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell(a)ufp.org Systems Engineer - Internetworking Engineer - CCIE 3440 Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request(a)tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org

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