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Re: aads renumbering rumor and implications
by Danny McPherson 25 Jan '99

25 Jan '99

> do i want to find out if ciscos and junipers can handle a hundred+ secondary > addresses? i'd guess neither vendor would have problems with this. however, several routing protocols have problems with secondary addresses. while BGP does not, folks are likely doing other "interesting" things at exchanges that this would effect. not to mention administrative overhead with adding new secondary address and such when adding additional peers. > and do we want to maintain such configurations?? not particularly. i'd think for the price of local loop, co-location and port fees, they'd be able to pick up the tab for the subnet... yet another reason to avoid public exchanges altogether, i suppose. -danny

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SMURF amplifiers
by Alex P. Rudnev 25 Jan '99

25 Jan '99

Hi Someone here have collected the list of smurf amplifiers? I have got a list used by the working hacker (and can send this list by e-mail) if you need more addresses into your collection. Alex. Aleksei Roudnev, Network Operations Center, Relcom, Moscow (+7 095) 194-19-95 (Network Operations Center Hot Line),(+7 095) 230-41-41, N 13729 (pager) (+7 095) 196-72-12 (Support), (+7 095) 194-33-28 (Fax)

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Re: Incompetance abounds at the InterNIC
by Dean Anderson 24 Jan '99

24 Jan '99

At 02:37 PM 1/22/1999 -0600, Phil Howard wrote: >Since many speculators actually do not pay, the claim can stand up very well. But they do pay. They get money sent to Internic sooner in the case of a lapsed registration. [or they motivate people to pay before they lapse] They get people to purchase domains they might not otherwise purchase, or that they might not otherwise purchase NOW. The costs of the non-completed registrations is trivial. So speculators make a net-profit for NSI. > But if the crunch of templates is blocking _my_ couple of >templates from getting processed in under a week, then I really do want >them to apply some temporary fix now to _this_ system so that do have the >breathing room to put a better system into place. Except that you (and everyone) get worse service after the proposed changes. It will take everyone longer to get domains registered. And you will have less information that you need to work (like on-hold status). [point gun at foot, pull trigger] >This war has probably resulted in "registration spam" where the speculator >submits repeated templates, perhaps once per day, to re-register that domain >hoping to narrow the window in which it is available to others. This makes no sense. I don't believe they re-register the same domain the next day. Once registered, its good for at least 30 days, and the creation date is on the record. Re-registering sooner than creation + 30 wouldn't have any effect unless NSI starts trying to ignore speculator registrations. Then I could see them trying to register it again the next day with a different name. But if that is the case, then NSI caused the flood by their own stupidity. That cannot be blamed on speculators. >My registrations are taking many days because the system is flooded. Because the system is slow/not working. I really doubt the system is flooded. I think the root nameserver updates would fail before the registration system would fail. I can't tell without being at Internic. But I don't think this sounds right. >I could throw together a script in a few minutes that could submit to InterNIC >more templates in a few hours than they get in a week. I could totally flood >InterNIC. But it would also be a denial of service, to InterNIC, and to all >of us, too. Except it doesn't sound like this is happening. Such a script would cause .com to increase by millions in a week. It hasn't. Therefore, I don't think this is happening. >The costs to speculators is on par with the costs to spammers. Computers make >it easy to do. Actually, all you are saying is that the cost of an email message is on par with the cost of a database transaction. I'll agree, and won't argue spam costs, because a bunch of us promised not to. While the comparision to spam is very obvious in many ways, please don't make spam comparisons. We can argue this without reference to spam. Enough said about that. Computers make it easy for NSI, too. $35.00 pays for a lot of computer cycles. There really can be hundreds of thousands of misses per one good registration. >> And if they generate a net-gain for Internic, thats a good thing. > >Up front payment probably will do that. Speculators won't go away. But at >least they get to help pay for the systems we have to use. Not having delayed/canceled payment, immediate registration hurts everyone, including me. When I sell a web-host, they want it up today. I suppose if everyone else has to wait 30 days, it won't be any worse than, say leased line delays, and if everyone has the same constraint, the playing field is level, so it shouldn't cost business. [actually, thats not true, since selling something sooner means more revenue in a year--that's why we have those marketing/sales folks. They get people to buy things now instead of next month. That makes a big difference.] And you are complaining about delays. Presumably, everyone experiences the same delays. Yet, you propose increasing the delays, and then that still won't stop speculators. So what is the point? How is the system improved? It isn't. But then, speculators are just a scapegoat. By definition, eliminating the scapegoat doesn't fix the problem. It just diverts attention from the more embarrasing, real problem. That's how I conclude they are just a scapegoat. >Paying up front is not a contortion. It is annoying to lose some WHOIS >data (I've already had one customer who hadn't paid their bill and got put >on hold, but said that whois doesn't say it's on hold). Maybe if up front >payments go into place, the whois data can be restored for the most part. Actually, just last week before the change, I also had a customer call me and complain their nameservice was broken. A quick check allowed me to tell them that they hadn't paid for their domain, and estimate for them how long their outage would be, which allowed them to give their customers a story about when service would be restored. Now neither I nor anyone else can do that. ***That is a "BAD THING"*** So now we'll have to call NSI, and get to a customer service rep to find out what's up. Then another call to pay. Thats a *LOT* more expensive. This is an improvement? Whoever at NSI came up with this idea really, really needs to be walked out the door. Changing the system so that it doesn't allow "delayed payment/cancelation and immediate duplicate notification" is a "BAD THING". If it means we have to tolerate "free" speculation, then we have to do that. Are you really willing to go to your customers and say "Well, I don't see that yyy.com is registered, but it will cost you $50.00, and 30 days to find out if you can get it." "You want to try 6 domains and keep the best one that you get? Thats 300.00 and 30 days" That's insane. >> I certainly don't want to give up the current system that allows one to >> register domains with delayed or canceled payment and immediate duplicate >> notification. > >It's certainly convenient to pay later. But it's not that great of a >difference to me. Then why are you complaining that it takes weeks to register a domain? Clearly, if these so-called anti-speculation changes are made, it will always takes weeks to register a domain. You are shooting yourself in the foot because you are afraid someone might step on your toe. --Dean ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Re: Who uses RADB/IRR?
by Dean Anderson 24 Jan '99

24 Jan '99

Actually, we just became multihomed last month. I'm not aware of any problems getting to other parts of the net, and definitely no problems with C&W. [Also, my apologies if this a newbie BGP question] I started looking at the RADB, but haven't got ourselves setup yet. Does anyone actually deny routes which aren't listed in the RADB? I guess what I'm really asking is how important is it to be in the RADB? Does it get more important sometime soon? I would also tend to think [based on limited BGP knowledge] that it would only be a problem if your direct upstream used the RADB or if your upstream is RADB filtered by their peers. Is this true? --Dean At 11:39 PM 1/21/1999 -0500, Daniel Senie wrote: >I'd like to find out which networks use the RADB or IRR databases to >build their routing policies, and how to look at their current databases >or access looking glass or equivalent systems. > >It's becoming difficult to take a network multihomed without having >parts of the net appear to be black holed in other parts of the world. >It appears difficult to ascertain which networks are doing what with >policies. > >So far I am aware of CW.NET and ANS.NET using the routing databases to >build their policies, but am not aware of a way to look at their tables. >If anyone has pointers to their resources, or those of other nets using >the routing registries, please let me know. > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------------- >Daniel Senie dts(a)senie.com >Amaranth Networks Inc. http://www.amaranthnetworks.com > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Re: Incompetance abounds at the InterNIC
by Dean Anderson 24 Jan '99

24 Jan '99

At 07:32 PM 1/21/1999 -0800, Patrick Greenwell wrote: >> But Internic isn't very forthcoming in how they manage their systems. Even >> so, I think I could run an automated database service for very little cost >> per transaction. On the order of hundreths of a cent per transaction. > >You and half a million other people claim to be able to do this. Running >code please? Running code on any of the dozens of discount brokerages. Actually, their code is much, much more complex than a domain registry. And much less automated. So charging 14.95 (E-Trade's fee) is probably too much, even with some "free" speculation. Stock brokerages are probably a bad example, because they are not completely analogous. They are way more complex, and much less automated, and probably less automatable. But it is significant that brokerages are LESS automated, MORE complex, and still charge LESS than Internic. [just want to insert some random upper case letters ;-)] Therefore, while its not such a good example, it still shows that Internic is getting a windfall by comparison. And it provides a real life example that one can run an automated database service for close to what I (and half a million others) claim to be able to do it for. >> You also assume that domain speculators are the only ones who register more >> domains than they pay for. They aren't. > >Yes, they are. ?? You contradict this in your next sentence. >> I'll bet many here have registered domains that they later didn't want >> and didn't pay for. > >So? That doesn't prove that non-speculators do this more often than >speculators. Why don't you check with NSI on this? I didn't say they do it more often. NSI wouldn't be able to answer this either. All they know is the total number of domains registered which aren't paid for. They may have identified a few speculators, such as the "on-hold" people. >> Further, speculators ultimately pay for the domains they sell. > >No, the purchaser pays for the domains they sell. The speculator often >does not. This doesn't make sense. Its like saying the customer of a hardware store pays for hardware, and hardware store does not. While I suppose it could be literally true, it isn't evidence that the hardware store "didn't pay". Likewise, Internic got paid for the domain, because the speculator got someone to pay for it. >It stand up quite well. Having worked for a registrar that employed both >models (post-pay and pre-pay) I can state unequivocally that our empirical >data showed that because of speculation a post-pay model was undesireable >as the speculators on the system at the time were not paying for the vast >majority of domains they registered. But they generate a net profit for the registry. Why? They cause more domains to be paid for than would otherwise be paid for. The revenue they create for the registry is greater than the infinitesimal cost of the domains which are never registered. >Demostratively false, that is why we are having this discussion. The >problems at NSI weren't caused from normal load that they expect. If you >want to argue that they have a shoddy, underpowered infrastructure, I >would tend to agree with you. Demonstration please? *CLAIMS* that they cause internic problems are why we have this discussion. However, those claims are false. Internic problems are due to poor management, and as you say "shoddy, underpowered infrastructure", not speculators. >> I think Internic can afford to scale with the volume regardless of >> speculation. Internic is a nearly fully automated process which charges > >> Speculators that actively try to sell their domains quite likely cause more >> domains to be registered, and so they increase the Internic sales revenue. >> I haven't seen any evidence that the costs of their non-completed >> transactions are more than cost of their completed transactions. > >Think about what you are saying. The cost of a completed transaction is >absored by the fees paid for that transaction. The cost of a non-completed >transaction is paid for by the fees *everyone else* pays for *their* >transactions. This isn't a sensible argument when you look closely. The total cost is subtracted from the total revenue. But if you are going to split up the costs, you must do it fairly. Speculator revenue less Speculator costs -------------------------------------------- = Net profit Normal revenue less normal costs. -------------------------------------------- = Net Profit Since the speculators are generating positive cash flow (the revenue they generate is greater than the costs they incur), "Normal" users aren't subsidizing speculators. What you are doing is this: Normal revenue less normal costs less speculator costs. --------------------------------------------- = Normal users subsidy You leave out speculator revenue, and draw an incorrect conclusion. >> The only speculators that might be able to register thousands of domains >> with little effort are the ones who register on-hold domains. But they are >> doing a favor for Internic, because they are collecting fees. > >Where do you get this wild idea? The only way this occurs is if the domain >is sold which occurs in the minority of cases, and then it is usually the >end purchaser, not the speculator that is paying for the domain. The >speculator serves no useful purpose in the transaction chain for anyone >involved save themselves. Speaking of wild ideas. I suppose that you think the marketing/sales department serves no useful purpose either. After all, it is the customer (end purchaser) who buys services, not the sales person. You are being most naive. The speculator is generating business that wouldn't otherwise be generated. Even the ones who register 'on-hold' domains. The reason speculators can be targeted is because Internic needs a scapegoat on which to blame their "shoddy, underpowered infrastructure", and the internic can easily survive without speculators. But lets not fall for this again. --Dean ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Re: Incompetance abounds at the InterNIC
by Chris Mauritz 23 Jan '99

23 Jan '99

I've just recently had a case where a speculator charged a gullible client thousands of dollars for a domain and then proceeded to do nothing when it came time to update the records with the Internic. It literally took a MONTH of forwarding notarized documents and then many follow-up calls to get the Internic to update the record. By then, the client's web site had launched....very ugly. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Henry Linneweh <linneweh(a)concentric.net> To: Jamie Norwood <mistwolf(a)ethereal.net> Cc: Dean Anderson <dean(a)av8.com>; Phil Howard <phil(a)whistler.intur.net>; pete(a)kruckenberg.com <pete(a)kruckenberg.com>; nanog(a)merit.edu <nanog(a)merit.edu> Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Incompetance abounds at the InterNIC >I have personally seen charges as high as $3000.00 to recover a domain >name from a speculator. I believe such prices gouging is a rip-off on the >face value of it, and that it actually is harmful and harassing to a firms >business. > >Henry R. Linneweh > >Jamie Norwood wrote: > >> On Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 05:01:13PM -0500, Dean Anderson wrote: >> > At 02:37 PM 1/22/1999 -0600, Phil Howard wrote: >> > >Since many speculators actually do not pay, the claim can stand up very well. >> > >> > But they do pay. They get money sent to Internic sooner in the case of a >> > lapsed registration. [or they motivate people to pay before they lapse] >> > They get people to purchase domains they might not otherwise purchase, or >> > that they might not otherwise purchase NOW. >> >> I don't see how this is true, unless I am missing something. They register a >> domain, and charge, say, $100 for this. Since, to make a profit, they would >> have to charge more than InterNIC. Now, someone going for a domain held like >> this is likely gone looking for that domain, not the other way around. >> >> So, say we have a domain, scalper.com. We really have 4 scenarios: >> >> 1) Noone ever wants it or buys it. >> >> 2) End-user wants it, registers with Internic. >> >> 3) Speculator puts in a template on it and doesn't pay unless they get a >> buyer. No buyer comes, it is recycled. Cost to speculator: $0. InterNIC >> impact? A server usage that they never get compensated for. >> >> 4) Speculator buys it and sells it to end-user for $100, using part of that >> to pay InterNIC and part as profit. InterNIC gets payed and is happy, >> but end-user pays $30 more than they would have if the speculator >> never found it (scenario 2). >> >> Now, as I see it, there is NO GOOD that comes from the speculator. Since >> in reality they do this for hundreds, if not more, domains, and I am willing >> to bet they sell at most 10% of the domains they register, they are adding >> a high burden to InterNIC's servers, with no return. The domains would >> sell just as easily without the speculator, and InterNIC would not have >> to copensate for hundred of domain creations that they will .never. see >> payment for. The speculator, of course, makes out the best; they have no >> overhead, and make pure profit. Pretty sweet deal, maybe I should try it! >> >> > >> > The costs of the non-completed registrations is trivial. So speculators >> > make a net-profit for NSI. >> >> See above. The net-profit they claim to offer is proft Internic would get >> just as well without them, and without the server overhead of a few hundred >> domains that will never be paid for. >> >> > >> > > But if the crunch of templates is blocking _my_ couple of >> > >templates from getting processed in under a week, then I really do want >> > >them to apply some temporary fix now to _this_ system so that do have the >> > >breathing room to put a better system into place. >> > >> > Except that you (and everyone) get worse service after the proposed >> > changes. It will take everyone longer to get domains registered. And you >> > will have less information that you need to work (like on-hold status). >> > [point gun at foot, pull trigger] >> >> Someone proposed the concept of having accounts with them, where your >> billing info is on file so that you could register, and be billed that >> way, and still keep the benefits of both pre-pay and post-pay systems. >> >> > >> > >This war has probably resulted in "registration spam" where the speculator >> > >submits repeated templates, perhaps once per day, to re-register that domain >> > >hoping to narrow the window in which it is available to others. >> > >> > This makes no sense. I don't believe they re-register the same domain the >> > next day. Once registered, its good for at least 30 days, and the creation >> > date is on the record. Re-registering sooner than creation + 30 wouldn't >> > have any effect unless NSI starts trying to ignore speculator >> > registrations. Then I could see them trying to register it again the next >> > day with a different name. But if that is the case, then NSI caused the >> > flood by their own stupidity. That cannot be blamed on speculators. >> >> Why wouldn't they, if they don't know when a domain will expire? What cost >> is it to them, who likely have nice little scripts that do all the work >> anyway. They have no reason .not. to do so. >> >> > >The costs to speculators is on par with the costs to spammers. Computers >> > make >> > >it easy to do. >> > >> > Actually, all you are saying is that the cost of an email message is on par >> > with the cost of a database transaction. I'll agree, and won't argue spam >> > costs, because a bunch of us promised not to. While the comparision to spam >> > is very obvious in many ways, please don't make spam comparisons. We can >> > argue this without reference to spam. Enough said about that. >> >> Agreed. >> >> > >> > Computers make it easy for NSI, too. $35.00 pays for a lot of computer >> > cycles. There really can be hundreds of thousands of misses per one good >> > registration. >> >> It .could., but does it? >> >> > Not having delayed/canceled payment, immediate registration hurts everyone, >> > including me. When I sell a web-host, they want it up today. I suppose if >> > everyone else has to wait 30 days, it won't be any worse than, say leased >> > line delays, and if everyone has the same constraint, the playing field is >> > level, so it shouldn't cost business. [actually, thats not true, since >> > selling something sooner means more revenue in a year--that's why we have >> > those marketing/sales folks. They get people to buy things now instead of >> > next month. That makes a big difference.] >> >> See above. Give InterNIC a nice deposit to be allowed to pre-pay. No deposit, >> no reg until they have the money. >> >> > And you are complaining about delays. Presumably, everyone experiences the >> > same delays. Yet, you propose increasing the delays, and then that still >> > won't stop speculators. So what is the point? How is the system improved? >> > It isn't. >> >> But I agree, while it won't stop them, it will at least make them contribute. >> I don't consider it contribution when they have extremely little out-of-pocket >> expenses and a high amount of profit. Make them pay for .every. domain they >> register, and I don't care if they resell it. Also, when you think about it, >> niw they can register a few hundred domains at no cost, unless someone buys >> it from them. But if to register those same 300, say, domains, will cost >> them $2100, they will be a lot more hesitant, since it would be very easy >> if you are unlucky to loose a couple thousand dollars. >> >> > >> > But then, speculators are just a scapegoat. By definition, eliminating the >> > scapegoat doesn't fix the problem. It just diverts attention from the more >> > embarrasing, real problem. That's how I conclude they are just a scapegoat. >> >> The best scapegoats are the people who really are problems. But making them >> go away won't clear or hide all the problems, and it will be easier to move >> forward with fixing the other problems when they have one less excuse to >> use on us. >> >> > >It's certainly convenient to pay later. But it's not that great of a >> > >difference to me. >> > >> > Then why are you complaining that it takes weeks to register a domain? >> > Clearly, if these so-called anti-speculation changes are made, it will >> > always takes weeks to register a domain. You are shooting yourself in the >> > foot because you are afraid someone might step on your toe. >> >> Again, combine the two. Any ISP who is that worried should have no trouble >> keeping a $1000 account with Internic for domains. And even that much is >> assuming you sign up bunches of domains every day. Real people should need >> less. There are solutions that will work. I, personally, would rather >> pay by credit card and add a few hours to the time, than keep domain >> scalpers and wait a week or more. >> >> > >> > --Dean >> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> > Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com >> > LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com >> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> Jamie >> >> Who likely should have remained lurking, but is tired and cranky. >

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Re: OFF TOPIC: Pre-NANOG Activities
by Tim Salo 23 Jan '99

23 Jan '99

> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:59:40 -0500 > From: David Diaz <davediaz(a)netrail.net> > Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Pre-NANOG Activities > [...] > Some people will test their new knees (crazy wabik) snowboarding while > others will just use sticks to go down the mountain. > [...] You should seem him in a car at the state fair... -tjs

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OFF TOPIC: Pre-NANOG Activities
by Derek Elder 23 Jan '99

23 Jan '99

Are there any groups getting together on Saturday to do anything interesting such as going skiing? D E R E K E L D E R Associate Partner, CCIE# 4048 __________________________________________ USWeb/CKS http://www.uswebcks.com/ 120 Wood Ave, Suite 300 Iselin, NJ 08830 ph: 732-632-2778 fax: 732-321-3809

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FW: Concert Network Scheduled Maintenance - UK (Subnet 4)
by Regan, Sharon 22 Jan '99

22 Jan '99

-----Original Message----- From: BrownLJ(a)stentor.ca [mailto:BrownLJ@stentor.ca] Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 4:03 PM To: Regan, Sharon Cc: GreenKB(a)stentor.ca; GodardD(a)stentor.ca; WongR(a)stentor.ca; SavardCR(a)stentor.ca; MenardPA(a)stentor.ca; McfetridgeM(a)stentor.ca; FournierLC(a)stentor.ca; SchroederJP(a)stentor.ca; ShurtliffMJ(a)stentor.ca; LockeMW(a)stentor.ca; WarrenGA(a)stentor.ca; PackmanJ(a)stentor.ca; ReilleyJA(a)stentor.ca; RochfordM(a)stentor.ca; GirardLP(a)stentor.ca; BirdBR(a)stentor.ca; WarrenL(a)stentor.ca Subject: Concert Network Scheduled Maintenance - UK (Subnet 4) Ms. Regan; On Saturday, February 6th as well as Sunday, February 7th, there will be maintenance performed in the UK (Subnet 4) to upgrade the Firmware on the trunk cards. The maintenance is a prerequisite for the 8.5 upgrade that is scheduled for February 12th . A separate notification will be sent outlining the specific details of the 8.5 upgrade as well as the corresponding impact statement . This notification is to advise you that the service impact ,relating to the trunk maintenance, will result in pvc's rerouting on both nights between 01:00 and 06:00 GMT. Any unexpected outages can be reported to 1-888-977-6678. Regards, Linda J. Brown CCSC - Concert Canada Service Center Concert Change Management 613-781-9382

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Re: Incompetance abounds at the InterNIC
by Dean Anderson 22 Jan '99

22 Jan '99

Once again, we have a tempest in a teapot. And once again this "tempest" is just a means of obscuring the real problem. Speculators aren't the problem. They are just a scapegoat. I'm probably going about this the wrong way by arguing the details of speculation, instead of getting people to focus on the real problems of performance and management. But Internic isn't very forthcoming in how they manage their systems. Even so, I think I could run an automated database service for very little cost per transaction. On the order of hundreths of a cent per transaction. Charging $35 means means that one can make many, many thousands of non-revenue transactions per revenue generating transaction. So I'll make the claim that if Internic can't do it for a comparable cost, that isn't justification for restrictions on the user community. You all remember when Internic was formed, and registrations were going to cost money, that many people thought $50.00 a year was outrageously high, right? At 01:55 PM 1/20/1999 -0700, Pete Kruckenberg wrote: >There is a key difference, and that is that stock speculators pay for the >right to speculate, so the system can afford to scale to meet the >increased volume. Actually, quite a few stock speculators don't pay for the privilege. Many speculators are stock brokers or floor traders who speculate cost free (other than the cost of the stocks they buy). And you should note that now that the stock exchanges are now nearly fully automated (though much less so than Internic), discount brokerages now charge less than Internic. Trading never stops now. Again, I think a first class, high availability, high security database service can be operated without significant per transaction costs. Indeed, it is a damning indictment of Internic that stock brokerages charge less, yet provide more secure, and more highly available computer services. You also assume that domain speculators are the only ones who register more domains than they pay for. They aren't. I'll bet many here have registered domains that they later didn't want and didn't pay for. Further, speculators ultimately pay for the domains they sell. What you are really complaining about is that they register some domains they don't pay for. The only reason you are complaining about that is because someone pinned the blame for Internic problems on speculators. The claim that "speculators don't pay" doesn't stand up. Neither does the claim that speculators cause Internic problems. They don't. I think Internic can afford to scale with the volume regardless of speculation. Internic is a nearly fully automated process which charges 35.00 for a completed registration. I am going to go out on a limb that a single database transaction costs very nearly nothing. So without doing the math for a single registration, I think Internic *afford* a large number of non-completed transactions for each completed transaction. Speculators that actively try to sell their domains quite likely cause more domains to be registered, and so they increase the Internic sales revenue. I haven't seen any evidence that the costs of their non-completed transactions are more than cost of their completed transactions. It costs them much more to fill out the registration template and scan the news than it does for Internic to (automatically) process the registration. If they don't sell more than their time is worth, they won't be able to afford to keep doing it. So it doesn't make any sense that they register to many hundreds of thousands of domains per successful registration. And if they generate a net-gain for Internic, thats a good thing. The only speculators that might be able to register thousands of domains with little effort are the ones who register on-hold domains. But they are doing a favor for Internic, because they are collecting fees. More importantly, they will ultimately encourage people to make their payments on time. Thats a good thing for Internic. Quite possibly, Internic can improve its efficiency with regard to domain expirations and re-registrations. But that doesn't mean that one should go though contortions to stop speculators. I certainly don't want to give up the current system that allows one to register domains with delayed or canceled payment and immediate duplicate notification. --Dean ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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