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Re: UUNET peering policy
by smd＠clock.org 15 Jan '01

15 Jan '01

Vixie writes: | Peering is a business relationship transcending locations. This is beautifully put, and I couldn't agree more. Each party sells the other connectivity of essentially unlimited bandwidth over time, but limited by scope. The prices for this service and associated committments to one another are agreed to be so close that actually exchanging money is unworthwhile. Sean.

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Re: UUNET peering policy
by Paul Vixie 15 Jan '01

15 Jan '01

sean(a)donelan.com (Sean Donelan) writes: > If you look at Abovenet's traffic graphs, you'll notice Abovenet has a wide > variety of traffic balances with different providers. Some in Abovenet's > favor (such as 3:1 with Sprint, 5:1 with Teleglobe) and some in the other > provider's favor (such as 1:3 with Exodus). ... "Favor"? What, precisely, connotes "favor" in this regard? Sending more, or receiving more? And: why? > ... I think interconnection agreements should be based on the point of > interconnection. When you delve too much in how the internals of other > providers' networks work, I think you are always going to run into > problems. I think it is best to view other provider's networks as a > black box. I don't agree. Peering is a business relationship transcending locations. The best peering agreements I know of (e.g., mine) specify growth terms so that traffic won't eventually encounter congestion while trying to get from one to the other or back again. Some forms of growth involve additional peering locations, and some do not. A peering agreement which was based on the point of interconnection would be far less useful in avoiding congestion. -- Paul Vixie <Paul.Vixie(a)MMFN.COM> CTO and SVP, MFN (NASDAQ: MFNX) AboveNet, PAIX, and MIBH are subsidiaries of Metromedia Fiber Network, Inc.

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I wonder if this is why above.net took the action it did
by Henry R. Linneweh 15 Jan '01

15 Jan '01

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/16062.html Spammer wrecks UUNet email service -- Thank you; |--------------------------------| | Thinking is a learned process. | | ICANN member @large | | Gigabit over IP, ieee 802.17 | | working group | | Resilient Packet Transport | |--------------------------------| Henry R. Linneweh

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Re: UUNET peering policy
by Paul Vixie 14 Jan '01

14 Jan '01

sean(a)donelan.com (Sean Donelan) writes: ...another stunningly well researched, accurate and articulate article, including the following: > ... The imbalance issue has come up a few more times with other > providers such as PSI, Abovenet and others. To the best of my knowledge, AboveNet has never insisted on any particular traffic balance with any of our peers. Send to us 10:1, 1:10, 1:1, whatever. Any traffic coming or going over a peering connection is to or from one of AboveNet's customers, which means we're paid (by that customer) to deliver it. (Any other policy amounts to wanting to be paid twice for the same packet.) Of course I can't commend on PSI or any of the other companies Sean mentioned. -- Paul Vixie <Paul.Vixie(a)MMFN.COM> CTO and SVP, MFN (NASDAQ: MFNX) AboveNet, PAIX, and MIBH are subsidiaries of Metromedia Fiber Network, Inc.

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RE: How does one make not playing nice with each other scale? (Wa s: net.terrorism)
by Mathew Butler 14 Jan '01

14 Jan '01

I'll point out that someone banning a site for AUP violations should only be able to affect their own network, since policies are supposed to be organization-level. (Thus, inflicting your policy decision on someone else is a very gray area, legally and ethically.) The reason why MAPS-RBL works (and is legally protected) is because everyone who uses it must -consent- to using it, and take positive action on their end to configure it. This means that each organization generates and enforces their own policy, though with assistance from an outside consultancy. However, in this case, AboveNet is inflicting policy decisions on transit routes =without consent=. (It's obvious this is without consent, otherwise this thread would never have come up.) It brings up an interesting point, but the law has held in the past that boycotts are only effective and legal if they're voluntary, and if coercion is involved then it become "intimidation tactics" of "organized crime". I can't for the life of me imagine how the Internet is any different -- maybe if you tried to apply turnpike or private highway rules to it, but those rules are generally based on consent, as well. Just some thoughts... -Mat Butler -----Original Message----- From: Mark Mentovai [mailto:mark-list@mentovai.com] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 10:26 AM To: Paul Vixie Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: How does one make not playing nice with each other scale? (Was: net.terrorism) There are a few things that would stand in the way of adoption of something like this: first, each anti-route would require manual configuration, and that comes with its own set of problems. Another potential issue (this is purely theoretical, I'm not referring to any past, present, or future situation in particular) is that providers trying to blackhole a certain site for AUP violations may want to negatively impact reachability as much as possible, rather than purely keeping the offending traffic off their network. These folks wouldn't want to advertise anti-routes because the resulting blackhole avoidance would encourage others to take working alternate paths, which does less harm to the site in question. Still, this may be a beneficial, even if little-used, addition. Thoughts? Mark

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Re: Peering Disputes
by Sean Donelan 14 Jan '01

14 Jan '01

On Sat, 13 January 2001, marcellus(a)bbo.com wrote: > I liked your run down on Peering disputes. However, I know there are alot of > us out there who have been involved in many other rather nasty ones. I understand there have been a less public disputes between providers. My list covered the "public" ones. I know my list is a bit one-sided. Whether folks believe it or not, even I respect NDAs. One weird thing about NDA is they sometimes keep me from talking about the good things providers do, as well as the bad things. There are providers I think handle peering very well, whether or not they peered with me. I expect the same is true of other people involved in peering. So we're always going to hear a one-sided story. I don't know if enough time has passed, but I hope at some point in time a researcher can get folks from the first peering battle on the same panel and document what happened directly from the source. Imagine Allan Weis (ANS), Rick Adams (UUNET), Stephen Wolff (NSF), Marty Schoffstall (PSI) and John Curran (BBN) on a panel discussing what they thought really happened. Its not really a NANOG topic, but maybe Harvard, CNI or one of the other think tank institutions.

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Re: UUNET peering policy
by Sean Donelan 14 Jan '01

14 Jan '01

On Thu, 11 January 2001, Rodney Joffe wrote: > I also don't believe that it was a coincidence that Genuity/GTE was the > first to make a public statement of it's peering policy. Sometimes I think "Internet Time" also applies to its long term memory. One of the reasons why I asked for copies of old peering policies is because essentially every major provider has publically announced their policy at one time or another in the last decade. Saying "First" about anything should mean more than the last 18 months. InternetMCI had their peering policy on their web site for several years (1995-1996) prior to its acquisition by Worldcom. I believe InternetMCI removed their peering policy from its public web site about the time Farouq took over peering at MCI. The first peering battle was ANS. The agreement was brokered by BBN arranging for ANS to connect to the CIX router. At that point, the definition of "being on the Internet" changed from being connected to the NSFNET to being on the commercial Internet, and the set of providers supplying commercial Internet service. The second peering battle was one of packet loss. Sprint tried to make things as painful as possible by never upgrading its connection to the CIX router above a T1. So even though other providers were exchanging traffic at 34Mbps to 45Mbps, Sprint kept their quality of service limited to 1.5Mbps at the CIX. This one was never directly resolved. But by this time most providers were exchanging a majority of their traffic via MAE-East. Around this time BBN transitioned from being a customer of InternetMCI to being a peer of InternetMCI using its connections via several old NSF regional networks (BARRNET, SURANET and NEARNET). BBN and MCI may have had the first "private" circuit peering. Because InternetMCI had sold connectivity as a loss-leader to the old NSF regionals, some folks throught MCI was happy to get out of the customer contract. The third peering battle involved disconnectivity. BBN was one of the first providers to terminate its connection to the CIX router, which had previously acted as the peering point of last resort, and began the second round of peering disputes. When all the major providers connected to the CIX, it was difficult for any provider not to peer because the CIX router always offered a way to exchange traffic. In less than three months, BBN, MCI and Sprint actions eliminated CIX as the router of last resort. It should be noted, UUNET has maintained its connection to the CIX router. Any provider interested in exchanging traffic with UUNET has always had the option of sending traffic via the CIX. This option does not exist for Genuity or Sprint. The fourth peering battle involved AGIS announcing its new peering policy at the least NANOG meeting held at the University of Michigan. It generated a lot of noise, but eventually AGIS's peering policy became irrelevant. Towards the end, AGIS was actively trying to get peering with new providers. The fifth peering battle involved UUNET. UUNET notified some number, I've heard between 10 and 20, providers UUNET would terminate their peering. At this time in the Internet's history only a few providers had written peering agreements. There were very few NDA's involved with peering before this time. It probably wasn't a breach of NDA, but someone leaked the story to the press. UUNET eventually was able to shutdown the story, but that lead to the next problem. Everything is a secret, so people imagine things were in peering agreements. The sixth peering battle involved once again BBN/GTE and the MCI/Worldcom merger. GTE worked very diligently to bring the issue of peering to the attention of regulators in the US and Europe. Eventually the EU Commission issued administrative inquires of all the major providers about the nature of the agreements, the amount of traffic, the types of connections and so forth. In the end, the nature of peering agreements wasn't clarified, but Worldcom had to spin off its InternetMCI division to Cable & Wireless. The seventh peering battle involved again BBN/Genuity/GTE and Exodus. This time it was the battle over imbalanced traffic flows. BBN and Exodus had a dispute, but it was settled and as they say on TV the terms were not announced. The imbalance issue has come up a few more times with other providers such as PSI, Abovenet and others. So, even though some folks like to point to UUNET as the big bully on the block, if you look at history; BBN has more often than not been the power behind the throne in these peering battles.

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Peering Disputes
by marcellus＠bbo.com 14 Jan '01

14 Jan '01

Sean, I liked your run down on Peering disputes. However, I know there are alot of us out there who have been involved in many other rather nasty ones. In my case, both resulted in my company's total disregard of my counsel. I'd be very interested in hearing other's feelings on this. -------------------------------------------------------- Marcellus Smith Manager - Peering <marcellus(a)bbo.com> 571.226.1223 Office 703-395-4275 Cell -----Original Message----- From: Sean Donelan [mailto:sean@donelan.com] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 10:57 PM To: rjoffe(a)centergate.com Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: UUNET peering policy On Thu, 11 January 2001, Rodney Joffe wrote: > I also don't believe that it was a coincidence that Genuity/GTE was the > first to make a public statement of it's peering policy. Sometimes I think "Internet Time" also applies to its long term memory. One of the reasons why I asked for copies of old peering policies is because essentially every major provider has publically announced their policy at one time or another in the last decade. Saying "First" about anything should mean more than the last 18 months. InternetMCI had their peering policy on their web site for several years (1995-1996) prior to its acquisition by Worldcom. I believe InternetMCI removed their peering policy from its public web site about the time Farouq took over peering at MCI. The first peering battle was ANS. The agreement was brokered by BBN arranging for ANS to connect to the CIX router. At that point, the definition of "being on the Internet" changed from being connected to the NSFNET to being on the commercial Internet, and the set of providers supplying commercial Internet service. The second peering battle was one of packet loss. Sprint tried to make things as painful as possible by never upgrading its connection to the CIX router above a T1. So even though other providers were exchanging traffic at 34Mbps to 45Mbps, Sprint kept their quality of service limited to 1.5Mbps at the CIX. This one was never directly resolved. But by this time most providers were exchanging a majority of their traffic via MAE-East. Around this time BBN transitioned from being a customer of InternetMCI to being a peer of InternetMCI using its connections via several old NSF regional networks (BARRNET, SURANET and NEARNET). BBN and MCI may have had the first "private" circuit peering. Because InternetMCI had sold connectivity as a loss-leader to the old NSF regionals, some folks throught MCI was happy to get out of the customer contract. The third peering battle involved disconnectivity. BBN was one of the first providers to terminate its connection to the CIX router, which had previously acted as the peering point of last resort, and began the second round of peering disputes. When all the major providers connected to the CIX, it was difficult for any provider not to peer because the CIX router always offered a way to exchange traffic. In less than three months, BBN, MCI and Sprint actions eliminated CIX as the router of last resort. It should be noted, UUNET has maintained its connection to the CIX router. Any provider interested in exchanging traffic with UUNET has always had the option of sending traffic via the CIX. This option does not exist for Genuity or Sprint. The fourth peering battle involved AGIS announcing its new peering policy at the least NANOG meeting held at the University of Michigan. It generated a lot of noise, but eventually AGIS's peering policy became irrelevant. Towards the end, AGIS was actively trying to get peering with new providers. The fifth peering battle involved UUNET. UUNET notified some number, I've heard between 10 and 20, providers UUNET would terminate their peering. At this time in the Internet's history only a few providers had written peering agreements. There were very few NDA's involved with peering before this time. It probably wasn't a breach of NDA, but someone leaked the story to the press. UUNET eventually was able to shutdown the story, but that lead to the next problem. Everything is a secret, so people imagine things were in peering agreements. The sixth peering battle involved once again BBN/GTE and the MCI/Worldcom merger. GTE worked very diligently to bring the issue of peering to the attention of regulators in the US and Europe. Eventually the EU Commission issued administrative inquires of all the major providers about the nature of the agreements, the amount of traffic, the types of connections and so forth. In the end, the nature of peering agreements wasn't clarified, but Worldcom had to spin off its InternetMCI division to Cable & Wireless. The seventh peering battle involved again BBN/Genuity/GTE and Exodus. This time it was the battle over imbalanced traffic flows. BBN and Exodus had a dispute, but it was settled and as they say on TV the terms were not announced. The imbalance issue has come up a few more times with other providers such as PSI, Abovenet and others. So, even though some folks like to point to UUNET as the big bully on the block, if you look at history; BBN has more often than not been the power behind the throne in these peering battles.

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Re: How does one make not playing nice with each other scale? (Wa
by Paul Vixie 14 Jan '01

14 Jan '01

> I'll point out that someone banning a site for AUP violations should only be > able to affect their own network, since policies are supposed to be > organization-level. (Thus, inflicting your policy decision on someone else > is a very gray area, legally and ethically.) unless there's a bgp routing leak, in violation of both policy and intent, there is no way to inflict your policy decision on someone against their will. this is because all traffic in an AS is paid for by at least one party (the sender, or the recipient, or the agent of one or the other) who has a contract with the owner of the capital plant making up that AS. in AS6461's case, every customer agreement ever signed includes a binding reference to the AS6461 AUG. any traffic blocked by the AS's owner by way of enforcing that AUG is perfectly within that AS owner's rights. > ..., in this case, AboveNet is inflicting policy decisions on transit > routes =without consent=. (It's obvious this is without consent, > otherwise this thread would never have come up.) obvious to you perhaps, but incorrect nevertheless. the complainer has since had their contract read to them and has learned that they did in fact consent to this type of policy-related blockage, by signing agreement to that contract. -- Paul Vixie <pvixie(a)mmfn.com> CTO and SVP, MFN (NASDAQ: MFNX) AboveNet, PAIX, and MIBH are subsidiaries of Metromedia Fiber Network, Inc.

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RE: How does one make not playing nice with each other scale? (Wa s: net.terrorism)
by Roeland Meyer 14 Jan '01

14 Jan '01

The consent comes from signing the service agreement and is built into the SLA. Yes, such anti-routing would need to be mentioned ... that is all. I am quite comfortable with AboveNet transit policies, as currently implemented. I have a number of clients, in AboveNet co-lo, that would be greatly inconvenienced were those policies (WRT ORBS) to change significantly. In fact, they are not yet secure enough to withstand the cracker attack wave that usually follows an ORBS listing. I know others, that are NOT clients, in the same shape. But, they are getting there. However, it takes time. -----Original Message----- From: Mathew Butler [mailto:mbutler@tonbu.com] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 2:27 PM To: 'Mark Mentovai'; Paul Vixie Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: RE: How does one make not playing nice with each other scale? (Wa s: net.terrorism) I'll point out that someone banning a site for AUP violations should only be able to affect their own network, since policies are supposed to be organization-level. (Thus, inflicting your policy decision on someone else is a very gray area, legally and ethically.) The reason why MAPS-RBL works (and is legally protected) is because everyone who uses it must -consent- to using it, and take positive action on their end to configure it. This means that each organization generates and enforces their own policy, though with assistance from an outside consultancy. However, in this case, AboveNet is inflicting policy decisions on transit routes =without consent=. (It's obvious this is without consent, otherwise this thread would never have come up.) It brings up an interesting point, but the law has held in the past that boycotts are only effective and legal if they're voluntary, and if coercion is involved then it become "intimidation tactics" of "organized crime". I can't for the life of me imagine how the Internet is any different -- maybe if you tried to apply turnpike or private highway rules to it, but those rules are generally based on consent, as well. Just some thoughts... -Mat Butler -----Original Message----- From: Mark Mentovai [mailto:mark-list@mentovai.com] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 10:26 AM To: Paul Vixie Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: How does one make not playing nice with each other scale? (Was: net.terrorism) There are a few things that would stand in the way of adoption of something like this: first, each anti-route would require manual configuration, and that comes with its own set of problems. Another potential issue (this is purely theoretical, I'm not referring to any past, present, or future situation in particular) is that providers trying to blackhole a certain site for AUP violations may want to negatively impact reachability as much as possible, rather than purely keeping the offending traffic off their network. These folks wouldn't want to advertise anti-routes because the resulting blackhole avoidance would encourage others to take working alternate paths, which does less harm to the site in question. Still, this may be a beneficial, even if little-used, addition. Thoughts? Mark

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