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Index of presentations
by Susan Harris 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

You'll find new subject & author indices for NANOG presentations here: http://www.nanog.org/subjects.html http://www.nanog.org/authors.html Most talks have an abstract, slides, and RealAudio recording. Only the last six meetings are done, but more will be coming soon. Comments welcome, e.g., do the categories make sense? Please send suggestions to me or nanog-support(a)nanog.org, not to the list. PS - our FAQ has been growing too: http://www.nanog.org/listfaq.html Many thanks to contributors Etaoin Shrdlu, Rachel K. Warren, JC Dill, Joe Abley, Richard Steenbergen, Marty Hannigan, Gwendolynn Ferch Elydyr, John Payne, Ginna Musgrove, and Doug Clements.

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Re: Internet Core Routing - Ethernet
by Bob Martinez 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

Alex: >Wrong. None of the vendors wants to help you what so ever. What they want >to >do is to have you spend your money with them by claiming that they want to >help you. Cool, I respect that attitude. At least now I know how to deal with you. The glass is half empty. > > Wouldn't you rather have a reliable, redundant L2 core with isolated > > failures and fast recovery? > >No. I hate complicated words and complicated concepts. It reminds me NASA >spending 10M to invent a pen that writes in 0 gravity instead of using a >pencil. You are the guy that posted about IBGP Nailed Routes. I love that idea. I understand your love of L3 and your design is great; however, as a service provider, you can't always rely on IP. What about Global Ethernet? The NY, Paris, Tokyo, Seoul, Singapore, Frankfurt, Moscow, Bankok, Sydney, Hong Kong, London, Cairo, Los Angeles, Jerusalem, Toronto, Mexico City, Rio (Can I manage this one?) Internet Exchange? MPLS VPLS over Ethernet Anybody? Use your nailed routes trick in the middle (MPLS side) and L2 peering exchanges in each city. Only problem with this is complexity. Do this alone or with few partners and you may be able to pull it off completely L2 without the cost of complexity. Simple like you said. Gotta work on the reliability part though. Test. I'd like to test in Paris, London, Jerusalem, and Toronto. I haven't been to those places yet and I got this cool digital camera. Please don't shoot when you see a Mexican (American) who can't speak Spanish. > > Ethernet is my digital wrapper of choice because of vendor chipsets > > supporting it and quality product. > >Yeah, ethernet over what, carrier pigeons? That will work, but I don't think carrier pigeons are Internet Core unless there has been major pigeon development I'm unaware of. Good question.. 1G (.z and .ad aggregates), 2.5G (POS), 10G (.az), 20G (.ad), 40G (.ad), beyond are more of the realm we are in nowadays huh? I suppose you can use WDM equipment and get an 802.3ad 100G trunk someday, but then again the assumption is that single flows would not be more than 10G :-) Bobby _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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Internet Core Routing - Ethernet
by Bob Martinez 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

Folks, Recently there was a string about L3 Switches in the core. I really don't like this string because I belive it reflects NANOG in a very bad light and I'm going to speak up here. 1. Why are you talking about vendors when you should be talking about technology on this list. Just like the charters. I would recommend to NANOG "if you disagree, say nay" that any post to NANOG with a vendor name in it be sent to the vendor for comment before being posted to the list. Just my 2 cents here. 2. Ethernet is the technology. If you don't see it, you are blind. Let's talk about Internet core routing in those terms. Sure, all vendors suck, but some suck WAY more than others. I think we all know the names. I would love to be challenged on my knowledge of ethernet as a network engineer. I know way more than I ever did about token ring. Wake up. How many routes can vendor X support with IBGP Nailed Routes? What is the convergence time for 100,000 routes? Does vendor Z have wire-speed ACL,s, PBR, MPLS? 10GigE? How much does that cost? Does vendor Y have any reference customers? Let me see the video? How do I manage CAM? I think we all know who the strong vendors are. There are a few that will be around for awhile. Bobby _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

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Re: Internet Core Routing - Ethernet
by Bob Martinez 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

Valdis: >Hmm... so if somebody posts to the list with the problem, and somebody else >saw >that same issue and got a fix from the vendor, they need to send it to the >vendor for comment, or they can say "Oh, you're being bit by bug (can't say >because it would identify the vendor) in a (vendor model you can't say) >several >hops upstream from you". Is this a problem? Not on my team. > > talk about Internet core routing in those terms. Sure, all vendors >suck, > > but some suck WAY more than others. I think we all know the names. I >would > >And how did we learn the names? Let's see.. Cisco, Juniper, Proteon, Bay, Dude, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You didn't mention my vendor. >add whatever names you want. You probably have your own opinions on what >each piece of gear is good at. I'm pretty much good at any vendor, not great. Some I prefer more than others. I hate wearing my sunglasses to work! >Now, did you actually *buy* and *use* all of that gear yourself? Friends in the community are my most trusted resource. > Or did >you let the common knowledge base called NANOG help you out? It kept me faithful in a single vendor for awhile. I still kinda like that vendor. > Remember that >learning from the mistakes and mishaps of others is a lot cheaper than >doing >them yourself... No mistakes to report, sir. NANOG keeps me informed. It is invaluable when used for operations. The Melissa virus, the WTC disaster, business disasters. I didn't mention the names of service providers, but I consider them to be vendors as well. Let's focus on traffic congestion, resource allocation, problems, fixes, reports, and other issues. A vendor that releases an official press release is more than welcome on NANOG. Up to you gues. I'm just aginst opinionated vendor information coming from NANOG. Moderate yourself. > > now way more than I ever did about token ring. Wake up. How many >routes > > can vendor X support with IBGP Nailed Routes? What is the convergence >time > > for 100,000 routes? Does vendor Z have wire-speed ACL,s, PBR, MPLS? >10GigE? > >Which would you trust for any of these numbers - a salesdroid *saying* a >number, or 5 different people on the NANOG list who have all seen a much >lower-performance number out in the field? Must I answer this? I trust myself more than anyone else, that is for sure. I know how to build a network without making too many mistakes, but I always seem to fix them and keep the customer (user) happy. Usually I fix them before they become big. Covey taught me that. I can build a network with any vendor. Just like you. Vendor does NOT MATTER TO ME! If you're posting on NANOG and you don't feel the same, perhaps you'd better unsubscribe. The other option may be to study Ethernet. >How helpful would this list be if vendors had the right to squelch any >adverse publicity? No one said squelch. I don't see squelching on the charter for NANOG. Announce as loud as you want to. Be like other mailing lists and moderate it. Send it to the vendor first. If the vendor doesn't help you, post it. Just like they do with the abuse lists. This is operational. I doubt if you'll ever need to send anything to NANOG. ALL OF THE VENDORS WANT TO HELP YOU THE BEST THAT THEY CAN! Everything else you said (below) makes you look like the mad scientist from my POV. My R&D budget is down 72% from last year. RPR? RUCRAZY? Look forward to seeing you on the battlefield while I chop you to shreds. Not a single ATM project on the map nowadays huh? MPLS is out there, but who needs it 'cept for certain situations sometimes driven by business needs. When I need it, I hope it is over Ethernet. Wouldn't you rather have a reliable, redundant L2 core with isolated failures and fast recovery? Isn't it just a circuit switched verses packet switched argument? Who cares about the digital wrapper! Ethernet is my digital wrapper of choice because of vendor chipsets supporting it and quality product. It meets my requirements today. My real world requirements. There are many examples of Ethernet in the internet core today. I know of many service providers using another vendor besides the two favorites on NANOG. They have reference customers. I am one of them. I've been using them for over 3 years and I have no major complaints. Ethernet: 2 (Mike Lieber did not challenge Ethernet as a technology) Valdis: 1 Bobby > > 2. Ethernet is the technology. > >Excuse me if I chuckle, having heard THAT before in the last 2 decades or >so. > >I've learned to not take *anybody* seriously when they say something is >"THE" >anything. Structured programming wasn't the end-all, nor was ATM, nor was >Java, nor will XML or Ethernet. Yes, 10G-E will probably see wide >deployment. >But I'll make a prediction - there will be something else coming out to >replace it long before it finishes replacing what's out there now. > >(For bonus points, compare the level-1 media characteristics of the >original >10mbit-over-thickwire with the 10gig-over-optical, and ask yourself if >there's >anything in common other than the name. It's amazingly reminiscent of the >saying "I don't know what language number-crunchers will use 20 years from >now, >but it will be called Fortran"....) >-- > Valdis Kletnieks > Computer Systems Senior Engineer > Virginia Tech > ><< attach3 >> _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

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Re:questionnaire
by CERT(R) Coordination Center 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- *************************************************************************** [NOTE -- THIS IS AN AUTOMATED RESPONSE] Thank you for contacting the CERT(R) Coordination Center. We appreciate your contacting us and consider your communications with us to be very important. Because we focus our response efforts to have the greatest impact on the Internet community, we may be unable to provide you with a personal response to your message. Please review the pointers contained in this message for information which may be of immediate use to you. Section A - CERT/CC Current Activity Section B - Incident Reporting Information Section C - Vulnerability Reporting Information If you need additional information from the CERT/CC, we encourage you to begin by looking at our list of CERT/CC Frequently Asked Questions: http://www.cert.org/faq/cert_faq.html ====================================================================== Section A - CERT/CC Current Activity The CERT/CC Current Activity web page provides a summary list of the most frequent types of incident and vulnerability activity currently being reported to the CERT/CC. Please refer to this regularly updated page to obtain immediate assistance in response to frequently reported activity: http://www.cert.org/current/current_activity.html In addition, the latest CERT/CC documents can be found at: * CERT Advisories - http://www.cert.org/advisories/ * CERT Incident Notes - http://www.cert.org/incident_notes/ * CERT Vulnerability Notes - http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/ * CERT Summaries - http://www.cert.org/summaries/ * CERT Tech Tips - http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/ * What's New - http://www.cert.org/nav/whatsnew.html * CERT/CC Web Site - http://www.cert.org/ For pointers to information about computer viruses and hoaxes, please see: * http://www.cert.org/other_sources/viruses.html ====================================================================== Section B - Incident Reporting Information We appreciate receiving incident reports because it helps us to gain a better understanding of ongoing intruder activities and attack profiles. From the information we receive, we are able to identify and address critical security issues within the Internet community. Because we prioritize our response efforts to have the greatest impact on the Internet community, we are not be able to provide everyone with a personal response. For general information about reporting incidents to the CERT/CC, please see our Incident Reporting Guidelines at: http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/incident_reporting.html To report incidents to the CERT/CC, please send information about the incident in plain text format to cert(a)cert.org. You may wish to use our Incident Reporting Form, located at: http://www.cert.org/reporting/incident_form.txt The CERT/CC considers the following types of incidents to be emergencies: * possible life-threatening activity * attacks on the Internet infrastructure, such as: - root name servers - domain name servers - major archive sites - network access points (NAPs) * widespread automated attacks against Internet sites * new types of attacks or new vulnerabilities If you are reporting such an emergency outside our operational hours - business days between 08:00-17:00 EST/EDT (GMT-5/GMT-4) and require immediate assistance, then please call the CERT hotline: +1 412 268 7090 If you believe the intruder activity is a threat to people's lives or to the Internet infrastructure, please contact us immediately. ====================================================================== Section C - Vulnerability Reporting Information If you would like to report a new type of vulnerability or tool being used by the intruder community, we would be interested in any details that you may have. If you are able, please include any or all of source code, log files of execution, and descriptions of operating dependencies. Please feel free to submit these details in ASCII format files (where possible) of your own design, or if you prefer to use a form, please see the file: http://www.cert.org/reporting/vulnerability_form.txt Please also encrypt the report using PGP if you are able to do so. Instructions are given at the top of the reporting form. ====================================================================== CERT(R) Coordination Center Software Engineering Institute Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA USA 15213-3890 Internet e-mail: cert(a)cert.org (monitored during business hours) Telephone: +1-412-268-7090 24-hour hotline CERT Coordination Center personnel answer business days 08:00-17:00 EST/EDT (GMT-5)/(GMT-4), on call for emergencies during other hours. Fax: +1-412-268-6989 CERT and CERT Coordination Center are registered in U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQCVAwUBPDNbnaCVPMXQI2HJAQHvcwQAljLIFBVtoFPoATWgbU/n5PSuz3cTT6Mw 2BEemoZN7xpQczGMDXgBapzFmTRiq3oVM1aSbpKZ6W8CGjoCQOdxGGQ22kTpFaHK e4j+b2Juym8aOWYuEmXxaw9MVPh79Bh8eIOC3npuYEXbEvlQPRyuDyNCZq5Vwe6b Y2ubokmJD3M= =q5NW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Williams NOC info?
by Jeffrey Wheat 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

Hi all. I am considering purchasing additional transit from Williams and I am wishing to get feedback on the support of their NOC department. Things I am looking for feedback on are 1) Availability of competent staff...i.e., do I have to play relay with an operator when I can hear her asking the tech questions but the tech refusing to get on the phone (I won't say who this is in a public forum), 2) response time of NOC on weekends and holidays and 3) ease of reaching the NOC (limited menu hell or transfer from one person to the next to the next. Please reply to me in person in order to limit any bashing if there is to be any... Many many thanks in advance, Jeffrey --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002

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RE: AP IX locations
by James Spenceley 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

|I'm looking to improve my connectivity into the AP region, in |a cost effective [i.e. for as little as possible :-)]. I have |ruled out buying transit as it doesn't help the issue that I'm |trying to resolve, so I was wondering if there was a location/IXP |in the AP region that would enable me to interconnect with |as many AP carriers as possible. sadly the best spot to interconnect is not in the AP region, its in Palo Alto. |Neil J. McRae - Alive and Kicking -- James

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cox cable still
by Scott Granados 30 Sep '02

30 Sep '02

Was wondering if anyone with clue from Cox is listening. My newly assigned arin block, 69.1.64.0/20 doesn't seem to be making it in to your filters even with the proper filed bbjects:). Or maybe I'm missing something obvious.

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AP IX locations
by neil＠DOMINO.ORG 29 Sep '02

29 Sep '02

I'm looking to improve my connectivity into the AP region, in a cost effective [i.e. for as little as possible :-)]. I have ruled out buying transit as it doesn't help the issue that I'm trying to resolve, so I was wondering if there was a location/IXP in the AP region that would enable me to interconnect with as many AP carriers as possible. I'd appreciate if anyone has a view if they could let me know [off list]. I'll post a summary if people are interested. Regards, Neil. -- Neil J. McRae - Alive and Kicking neil(a)DOMINO.ORG

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finds and other data frommy report on economics of peering and transit
by Gordon Cook 29 Sep '02

29 Sep '02

At the end of August when I posted news about my interviews with Bill Woodcock's views on synthetic path analysis and the economics of peering and requested additional help from peering coordinators I promised a brief report. Response from Nanog was excellent. 16 additional folk joined mail list making a total of 32 - 25 of whom made contributions to the discussion. you will find the introductory article containing my complete findings, a list of the 25 contributors and the complete table of contents at http://cookreport.com/11.08-09.shtml I hesitate to say "our" findings but I did share drafts with list members who made significant criticisms and contributions which i incorporated. -- ======================================================== The COOK Report on Internet, 431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA (609) 882-2572 (phone & fax) cook(a)cookreport.com Subscription info & prices at http://cookreport.com/subscriptions.shtml Summary of content for 10 years at http://cookreport.com/past_issues.shtml Info on Economics of Peering, Transit & IXs November - December 118 pages available at http://cookreport.com/11.08-09.shtml ========================================================

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