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Re: AOL & Cogent
by Paul Vixie 30 Dec '02

30 Dec '02

> Is it just me or does all this make Internap's Business model look > really good? i think it's just you.

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Re: AOL & Cogent
by Paul Vixie 30 Dec '02

30 Dec '02

> Similarly to peering, a base amount is required to make this crazy > thing we all run work. As we've seen with companies like PSI, those > who terminate, or loose significant peering generally end up dead. no part of worldcom's failure traces to uunet's decision to restrict their peering back in 1993/1994. in fact, that decision was has been spectacularly successful from a business standpoint. unfortunately, one example does not a trend make. also unfortunately, one example can be terrifically inspiring to others. so while i accept your use of the word "generally", i have to say it doesn't look that way to the business people who have quarterly numbers to make and are willing looking at their fellow network operators as possible meat. oh and while i considered PSI's vision faulty, i do not believe that their peering games had anything to do with their failure. (nor do i believe that winning those games would have saved them.) now, let's resolve a point of confusion: > > ...at least you know they are paying SOMEBODY, thus supporting the > > market you want to be in. you can then compete in that market. if > > everybody who could peer in N places worldwide could just get > > peering, then all kinds of per-bit revenue for "high tier" network > > owners would turn into per-port revenue for exchange point > > operators. where's the market in that? how could a "high tier" > > even exist in those conditions? > > Argument #1, don't peer with the little guy because it takes revenue > away from ISP's in general. > > > as a local operator myself (ISC), i know that i should not expect > > peering other than if someone wants their customers to have better > > access to the f-root server or the kernel.org ftp server or > > whatever. it's actually easier for me, as a nonprofit, to attract > > what mr. bill calls 'content peering' relationships, since i don't > > compete with the folks i peer with. > > Argument #2, it's easy for me, a little guy to get peering because > I don't compete with the ISP's, I just buy from them. > > So which is it? Do you peer with the little guys who don't run > networks because content peering is good, or do you not peer with > them because it forces them to buy from somebody, and if everyone > does that it's good for ISP's in general? as a business decision, peering with someone like ISC is a no-op. it neither costs nor makes any money, doesn't shift cost or revenue toward anybody, etc. the two reasons for this are (a) the potential peer is not going to be selling transit (therefore there's no revenue stream to want a cut of) and (b) the potential peer isn't making any porno or other revenue, and so is an unlikely transit customer for its own traffic. > It seems to me you want to have your cake and eat it too. actually i'm trying to explain rather than defend. my arm is still cramped from signing 500 peering agreements at a time back at AS6461, and when i next run an international IP backbone i hope to sign 10X as many. peering is good for business, but only if one has no natural monopoly or first mover advantage (like uunet had) that makes alternatives viable, and only if one's vision extends beyond the next quarterly SEC filing.

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RE: DC power versus AC power
by Kuhtz, Christian 30 Dec '02

30 Dec '02

From: Wayne Bogan [mailto:wbogan@infoave.net] > For those AC only powered units, you can also purchase an invertor > for DC to AC conversion. You would then have the advantages of DC > for your AC equipment. This does, however, add the potential of > another point of failure such as fuses or breakers in the invertor. Not to mention additional cost of wasted electricity (which does add up significantly when it is anything but a spot solution) and pitfalls of inverters (like their imperfect sine waves). And if you're putting spot solution UPS units out into the bottom of a particular rack, be ware their canny ability to catch fire when the price is right. Inverters or rectifiers should be point solutions in a plant layout. If you have a lot of AC & DC, get two protected plants. Only way to live. Sometimes that's not just nice to have, but simply required. If you're primarily a systems shop and have environmentally conditioned space, get AC. If you're in a nasty colo spot, with poor environmental (read: not guaranteed meat locker climate 24x7), get DC & NEBS hardware or hardware which meets NEBS almost entirely but doesn't carry the sticker for some silly reason such as "easily flammable plastic used for front grill". Depending on what your colo requires. There are many different flavors of colo. Speaking of flavors, consider the impact of a turf vendor based on whatever decision you chose when going into colo space. May or may not be an issue. See what equipment offers what, do the math on cost of plant and gear, pros & cons. And make a business decision based on engineering data. (uh, right) But, as Stephen already eluded to... Compared with an AC plant design, to me, one of the biggest drawbacks of a DC plant is safety (I have had to kick a fellow worker away from the rack before). One of the biggest advantages is simplicity of design when it comes to battery plant. There is no universal answer, it all depends. And one ends up shuffling off and having to do a bunch of homework. Of course, this is all IMHO and I've been wrong before. Thanks, Christian -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Bogan [mailto:wbogan@infoave.net] Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 1:06 PM To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: DC power versus AC power ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Sprunk" <ssprunk(a)cisco.com> To: <ipdude(a)cattle-today.com>; <nanog(a)merit.edu> Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 1:58 AM Subject: Re: DC power versus AC power > > Thus spake ip dude <ipdude(a)cattle-today.com>: > > Hello NANOG group. I am trying to make a case for using DC power > > supplies versus AC power supplies for typical IP networking > > equipment. Is there any published whitepapers detailing this subject? > > Do you have any suggestions to aide my argument? > > Most of the argument depends on the facility you're in. Assuming you're > asking as an end-customer: > > DC requires clue from your staff when installing/removing equipment, and > this means safety training at a minimum. Power choice also affects your > equipment purchasing: DC versions of gear are often priced higher, and gear > not intended for telcos/ISPs may not have a DC option available at all. > > OTOH, many colos -- especially ones run by telcos -- don't provide AC UPS. > If you want AC UPS in these environments, you'll have to provide your own, > which is expensive, bulky, and a maintainance burden. > > If you're building your own datacenter, please specify that and I'm sure > you'll get a whole different discussion :) > > S > > ***** "The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers."

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Re: DC power versus AC power
by Steven M. Bellovin 30 Dec '02

30 Dec '02

In message <004f01c2b018$4ac14900$ae876540(a)amer.cisco.com>, "Stephen Sprunk" wr ites: > >Thus spake joe mcguckin <joe(a)via.net>: >> It only takes 30ma to put your heart into atrial fibrillation. In the >> usa, gfi's are set to trip at 5ma. > >Did you mean 5A, or am I misunderstanding GFIs? > No -- 5 ma is correct. (GFIs measure the difference in current between the hot and neutral leads -- if it exceeds 5 ma, it trips.) --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb (me) http://www.wilyhacker.com (2nd edition of "Firewalls" book)

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Public thanks to UUNet security
by Mark Radabaugh 30 Dec '02

30 Dec '02

Since the good things so rarely get mentioned... I would like to publicly thank UUNet's network operations for dealing with a DOS attack quickly and efficiently yesterday. I am happy to say it only required one phone call of less than 15 minutes to get the appropriate filtering in place. Mark Radabaugh Amplex (419) 720-3635

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DC power versus AC power
by ip dude 30 Dec '02

30 Dec '02

Hello NANOG group. I am trying to make a case for using DC power supplies versus AC power supplies for typical IP networking equipment. Is there any published whitepapers detailing this subject? Do you have any suggestions to aide my argument? _____________________________________________________________ Get your own free Ranch eMail and Classified Ads at http://cattletoday.com _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you(a)yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag

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RE: DC power versus AC power
by Kuhtz, Christian 30 Dec '02

30 Dec '02

> Switched power supplies really don't care about the quality of the > sine waves that feeds them, as long as they have energy to put into > the "tank". On the other hand, video monitors like sine waves, and > they may not get along with DC inverters/rectifiers (or even portable > AC no-breaks, which usually generates AC from DC). Sure. And not to get into a contest here, but it all depends on how bad the approximation is and what gear it is we're talking about. It's just something to consider and research, and include in the decision. Clean power plants (and that's got nothing to do with green ;) is always a good thing. Doesn't have to be perfect, just close enough for <insert operational criteria here>. Thanks, Christian ***** "The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers."

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RE: Hardened dishes, was Guam
by Greg Meehan 29 Dec '02

29 Dec '02

Wow, does that take me back :) There used to be very similar arrays at RAF Chicksands and other assorted Air Force comm detachments around the Midlands area in the UK. Most of these were relocated/abandoned in the mid to late 80's though. I was stationed at RAF Croughton, (Wideband/Satcom) and we had similar dishes there. My primary responsibiity was the 60-ton-dish satcom facility, where we provided a majority of .eu military communications out of Europe to CONUS. I unfortunately throughout the years managed to lose most of my pics of the base and dish farms, (too many moves across country, etc.) Might anyone have photos (or know of anywhere on the internet) where I can download some of those again? Thanks, and thanks for the pic.. BTW - what book is that originally from? -Greg Meehan Network Engineer Life Time Fitness, corp. -----Original Message----- From: David Lesher [mailto:wb8foz@nrk.com] Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 6:36 PM To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Hardened dishes, was Guam While back, I mentioned some hardened microwave dishes at ATT CoG facilities. I got lots of interest. Here's a few more pictures for the still curious... <http://longlines.addr.com/documents/EW0869/EW0869-43.html> -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz(a)nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

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Hardened dishes, was Guam
by David Lesher 29 Dec '02

29 Dec '02

While back, I mentioned some hardened microwave dishes at ATT CoG facilities. I got lots of interest. Here's a few more pictures for the still curious... <http://longlines.addr.com/documents/EW0869/EW0869-43.html> -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz(a)nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

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MBONE
by Nicolas DEFFAYET 28 Dec '02

28 Dec '02

Hello, Who can provide me an IPv4 multicast tunnel with a mbgp session ? My multicast router is located at Paris, FR. Thanks Best Regards, -- Nicolas DEFFAYET, NDSoftware NOC Website: http://noc.ndsoftwarenet.com/ FNIX6: http://www.fnix6.net/ #nocpeople @ IRCnet

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