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new routeviews mailing lists
by David Meyer 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

Folks, We have set up a few new mailing lists for the routeviews project; see http://routeviews.org/~majordom/rv-lists.html Thanks, Dave

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Anybody using GBICs?
by lance_tatman＠agilent.com 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

I'm looking into doing some research that will make use of GBICs(Gigabit Interface Converters), but I need to know how many of you are using GBICs in your networks? If you are using them, where do they fit into your topology? -Lance- Agilent Laboratories lance_tatman(a)agilent.com

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RE: more on filtering
by daryl＠introspect.net 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

> -----Original Message----- > From: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On > Behalf Of Chris Parker > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 9:01 PM > To: Alex Yuriev > Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: Re: more on filtering > [...] > I don't see how that is the same thing here. I have an > agreement with cust X to provide services in accordance with > my AUP. cust X resells that service to cust Y, etc. cust Y > is bound to the terms and conditions of my agreement with > cust X, despite that I do not have a direct agreement with cust Y. Oh christ...network engineers trying to be lawyers. I don't know much, but I do know that legal agreements in the US are NOT transitive in this way, unless each agreement is included by reference in the other. Daryl

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RE: more on filtering
by daryl＠introspect.net 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

> -----Original Message----- > From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen@delong.com] > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 11:12 AM > To: Daryl G. Jurbala; nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: RE: more on filtering > [...] > > NOT transitive in this way, unless each agreement is included by > > reference in the other. > > Yes and no. If my agreement with cust X says that they take > responsibility for ensuring that any customers to whom they > resell my service (or any traffic they transit into my > network, to be more specific) must conform to my AUP, then > the fact that it is cust Y that originated the violating > traffic has little effect. I can still hold cust X > responsible. As a good guy and for good customer service, I > will, instead, first ask X to hold Y accountable and rectify > the situation. If that doesn't work, you bet X will get > disconnected or filtered. I 100% agree with this (other than the first three words;) ). But legally, the agreement is not transitive. Legally it's YOUR customer only that is responsible to your AUP. It follows logically, but not legally, that your customer binds their customers to an AUP that is at least as restrictive as yours, or YOUR CUSTOMER will be in breach with you, if their customers exercise practices violating your AUP...whether they are "allowed" to in the contract with their upstream or not. I'm speaking legally only (yes, by random chance, I had my contract attorney on the phone when I first read this post). Logically, you're correct....but law != logic. Daryl

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RE: more on filtering
by daryl＠introspect.net 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

> -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Parker [mailto:cparker@starnetusa.net] > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 11:18 AM > To: Daryl G. Jurbala > Subject: RE: more on filtering > [...] > Ah, you are a member of which bar? :) I knew that one was coming ;) Actually, I mentioned in my last reply that I happened to be on the phone with my contract attorney after I read that post (on a completely unrelated issue.....I don't normally burn attorney fees on NANOG threads ;). I asked him about it specifically. [...] > If I sell something to you that binds you to certain terms > and conditions, are you saying that you can resell that > someone else who is not bound to at least the same terms and > conditions? Yes, it's possible. It's a grey area....it's not quite selling something you don't own, but it's close. The guy I was talking to didn't know of any specifics where someone had actually been burned by this, other than getting slammed by their upstream. > And that I would have no ability to enforce the > terms and conditions agreed to by Cust X on the use of the > service by Cust Y? That's the legalese part....NO, you have no remedy against your customer's customer. Only against your direct customer. That's the point I was trying to make about the agreements not being transitive in that way. I'm told that specific legal point significantly adds to the bulk of reseller agreements (although I think it's because the attorneys get paid by the word). OK...that's enough OT for me. Daryl

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The Cidr Report
by cidr-report＠potaroo.net 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

This report has been generated at Fri Oct 31 21:48:28 2003 AEST. The report analyses the BGP Routing Table of an AS4637 (Reach) router and generates a report on aggregation potential within the table. Check http://www.cidr-report.org/as4637 for a current version of this report. Recent Table History Date Prefixes CIDR Agg 24-10-03 126836 89904 25-10-03 126575 90050 25-10-03 126891 90138 27-10-03 126973 90190 28-10-03 127076 90375 29-10-03 127450 90327 30-10-03 127375 90445 31-10-03 128001 90054 AS Summary 16044 Number of ASes in routing system 6383 Number of ASes announcing only one prefix 2061 Largest number of prefixes announced by an AS AS209 : ASN-QWEST Qwest 73586432 Largest address span announced by an AS (/32s) AS568 : SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA Aggregation Summary The algorithm used in this report proposes aggregation only when there is a precise match using the AS path, so as to preserve traffic transit policies. Aggregation is also proposed across non-advertised address space ('holes'). --- 31Oct03 --- ASnum NetsNow NetsAggr NetGain % Gain Description Table 128193 90037 38156 29.8% All ASes AS209 2061 546 1515 73.5% ASN-QWEST Qwest AS4323 680 197 483 71.0% TW-COMM Time Warner Communications, Inc. AS701 1424 990 434 30.5% ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc. AS7018 1356 944 412 30.4% ATT-INTERNET4 AT&T WorldNet Services AS7843 532 132 400 75.2% ADELPHIA-AS Adelphia Corp. AS6197 645 272 373 57.8% BATI-ATL BellSouth Network Solutions, Inc AS6198 569 229 340 59.8% BATI-MIA BellSouth Network Solutions, Inc AS22909 305 21 284 93.1% DNEO-OSP1 Comcast Cable Communications, Inc. AS4355 389 109 280 72.0% ERMS-EARTHLNK EARTHLINK, INC AS22773 297 19 278 93.6% CCINET-2 Cox Communications Inc. Atlanta AS1221 958 681 277 28.9% ASN-TELSTRA Telstra Pty Ltd AS6347 340 86 254 74.7% DIAMOND SAVVIS Communications Corporation AS1239 921 669 252 27.4% SPRINTLINK Sprint AS4134 359 120 239 66.6% CHINANET-BACKBONE No.31,Jin-rong Street AS17676 276 39 237 85.9% GIGAINFRA Softbank BB Corp. AS25844 243 11 232 95.5% SKADDEN1 Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP AS27364 316 87 229 72.5% ACS-INTERNET Armstrong Cable Services AS11305 230 38 192 83.5% INTERLAND-NET1 Interland Incorporated AS9583 271 82 189 69.7% SATYAMNET-AS Satyam Infoway Ltd., AS4519 189 10 179 94.7% MAAS Maas Communications AS6140 337 160 177 52.5% IMPSAT-USA ImpSat AS2386 385 209 176 45.7% INS-AS AT&T Data Communications Services AS6327 204 28 176 86.3% SHAW Shaw Communications Inc. AS14654 178 2 176 98.9% WAYPORT Wayport AS9498 201 28 173 86.1% BBIL-AP BHARTI BT INTERNET LTD. AS2048 252 86 166 65.9% LANET-1 State of Louisiana AS15270 202 44 158 78.2% AS-PAETEC-NET PaeTec.net -a division of PaeTecCommunications, Inc. AS705 394 238 156 39.6% ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc. AS5668 310 156 154 49.7% CENTURY Century Telephone AS11172 192 42 150 78.1% MX-SASC-LACNIC Servicios Alestra S.A de C.V Total 15016 6275 8741 58.2% Top 30 total Possible Bogus Routes 24.119.0.0/16 AS11492 CABLEONE CABLE ONE 61.12.32.0/24 AS7545 TPG-INTERNET-AP TPG Internet Pty Ltd 61.12.34.0/24 AS7545 TPG-INTERNET-AP TPG Internet Pty Ltd 64.30.64.0/19 AS14900 USLEC-CORP-1 USLEC Corp. 64.85.160.0/22 AS3356 LEVEL3 Level 3 Communications, LLC 64.85.184.0/21 AS3356 LEVEL3 Level 3 Communications, LLC 66.41.192.0/18 AS13367 CCCH-AS3 Comcast Cable Communications Holdings, Inc 66.133.192.0/18 AS20001 ROADRUNNER-WEST HoldCo LLC - Road Runner 66.133.234.0/23 AS1668 AOL-ATDN AOL Transit Data Network 132.0.0.0/10 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 137.0.0.0/13 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 138.136.0.0/13 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 140.143.2.0/24 AS1221 ASN-TELSTRA Telstra Pty Ltd 140.240.0.0/13 AS1 GNTY-1 Genuity 142.105.220.0/22 AS209 ASN-QWEST Qwest 142.105.224.0/22 AS209 ASN-QWEST Qwest 142.105.228.0/22 AS209 ASN-QWEST Qwest 142.105.232.0/22 AS209 ASN-QWEST Qwest 158.0.0.0/13 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 165.212.0.0/16 AS7424 USANET USA.Net 192.43.230.0/24 AS4738 SAARDNET-AS South Australian Academic Research and Development Network 192.44.0.0/19 AS702 ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc. 192.83.16.0/20 AS5515 SONERA-GLOBAL-IP Sonera Solution Autonomous System 192.83.32.0/19 AS5515 SONERA-GLOBAL-IP Sonera Solution Autonomous System 192.83.64.0/19 AS5515 SONERA-GLOBAL-IP Sonera Solution Autonomous System 192.83.96.0/22 AS5515 SONERA-GLOBAL-IP Sonera Solution Autonomous System 192.83.100.0/24 AS5515 SONERA-GLOBAL-IP Sonera Solution Autonomous System 192.119.135.0/24 AS270 PSCNI-AS National Aeronautics and Space Administration 192.124.252.0/22 AS680 AS680 DFN-IP service G-WiN 192.135.50.0/24 AS7018 ATT-INTERNET4 AT&T WorldNet Services 192.136.71.0/24 AS719 AS719 LANLINK autonomous system 192.136.79.0/24 AS719 AS719 LANLINK autonomous system 192.153.136.0/21 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 192.153.144.0/21 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 192.172.0.0/19 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 192.188.208.0/20 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 192.243.32.0/23 AS2044 PALIN-AS Palin Aquisitions Inc. 198.23.26.0/24 AS4390 BELLATLANTIC-COM Bell Atlantic, Inc. 198.97.72.0/21 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 198.97.80.0/20 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 198.97.88.0/24 AS89 NUSC-CSTLNET-AS Naval Underwater Systems Center 198.97.192.0/20 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 198.97.240.0/20 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 198.98.8.0/21 AS3701 NERONET Oregon Joint Graduate Schools of Engineering 198.101.4.0/22 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 198.136.32.0/20 AS19329 MCNET Martin County Board of County Commissioners 198.144.32.0/19 AS3998 CITY-NET CityNet, Inc. 198.161.87.0/24 AS6539 GROUPTLCOM GT Group Telecom Services Corp. 198.161.165.0/24 AS852 ASN852 Telus Advanced Communications 198.163.155.0/24 AS684 MBNET-AS Manitoba Regional Network 198.167.0.0/16 AS7456 INTERHOP Interhop Network SERVICES Inc. 198.167.163.0/24 AS15290 ATTCA-15290 AT&T Canada Telecom Services Company 198.168.0.0/16 AS701 ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc. 198.169.0.0/16 AS803 SASKTEL SaskTel 198.232.133.0/24 AS23075 SKOTOS-AS Skotos Tech, Inc 199.10.0.0/16 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 199.60.0.0/20 AS271 BCNET-AS University of British Columbia 199.79.32.0/20 AS3701 NERONET Oregon Joint Graduate Schools of Engineering 199.84.0.0/16 AS701 ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc. 199.114.0.0/18 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 199.114.0.0/21 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 199.114.128.0/18 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 199.114.130.0/24 AS721 DLA-ASNBLOCK-AS DoD Network Information Center 199.114.132.0/24 AS721 DLA-ASNBLOCK-AS DoD Network Information Center 199.114.136.0/24 AS1913 DLA4 Defense Logistics Agency 199.114.138.0/24 AS721 DLA-ASNBLOCK-AS DoD Network Information Center 199.114.140.0/24 AS3544 ITSDN-U7 DISA/UNRRA 199.114.142.0/24 AS721 DLA-ASNBLOCK-AS DoD Network Information Center 199.114.144.0/24 AS721 DLA-ASNBLOCK-AS DoD Network Information Center 199.114.148.0/24 AS721 DLA-ASNBLOCK-AS DoD Network Information Center 199.114.150.0/24 AS721 DLA-ASNBLOCK-AS DoD Network Information Center 199.114.152.0/24 AS1913 DLA4 Defense Logistics Agency 199.114.154.0/24 AS1733 CENTAF-SWA AF DDN PMO 199.114.156.0/24 AS1913 DLA4 Defense Logistics Agency 199.114.160.0/24 AS1733 CENTAF-SWA AF DDN PMO 199.120.32.0/19 AS16582 NEXTLEVELINTERNET NEXTLEVEL INTERNET, INC. 199.121.0.0/16 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 199.123.0.0/18 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 199.123.16.0/20 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 199.123.80.0/21 AS568 SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA 199.166.18.0/24 AS701 ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc. 199.189.32.0/19 AS7332 IQUEST-AS IQuest Internet 199.202.0.0/16 AS701 ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc. 202.0.180.0/24 AS4058 LINKAGENET-AP CPCNet Hong Kong Ltd. 202.3.158.0/24 AS17557 PKTELECOM-AS-AP Pakistan Telecom 202.3.159.0/24 AS17557 PKTELECOM-AS-AP Pakistan Telecom 202.4.252.0/22 AS4808 CHINA169-BJ CNCGROUP IP network¡ªChina169 Beijing Province Network 202.4.255.0/24 AS4799 UNSPECIFIED Ji Tong Communications Co., Ltd. 202.44.112.0/20 AS17458 CWNETDG-IO-AP Cable and Wireless 202.70.240.0/20 AS4058 LINKAGENET-AP CPCNet Hong Kong Ltd. 202.74.32.0/19 AS9315 CWN-AS-AP Chomanan WorldNet Co., Ltd. 202.93.0.0/20 AS4134 CHINANET-BACKBONE No.31,Jin-rong Street 202.93.64.0/19 AS9425 I-NEXT-AS-AP Inter.net Philippines border AS 202.122.76.0/24 AS17553 TIMELESS-AP System Integration provider 202.136.254.0/23 AS4808 CHINA169-BJ CNCGROUP IP network¡ªChina169 Beijing Province Network 202.136.254.0/24 AS4808 CHINA169-BJ CNCGROUP IP network¡ªChina169 Beijing Province Network 202.136.255.0/24 AS4808 CHINA169-BJ CNCGROUP IP network¡ªChina169 Beijing Province Network 202.142.130.0/23 AS17820 DIL-AP DIRECT INTERNET LTD. 202.142.132.0/22 AS17820 DIL-AP DIRECT INTERNET LTD. 202.164.192.0/19 AS7599 IPXC-AS-AP IP Exchange 202.165.0.0/19 AS9443 INTERNETPRIMUS-AS-AP Primus Telecommunications 202.174.75.0/24 AS14742 INTERNAP-BLOCK-4 Internap Network Services 202.179.64.0/24 AS7633 SOFTNET-AS-AP Software Technology Parks of India 202.179.65.0/24 AS7633 SOFTNET-AS-AP Software Technology Parks of India 202.179.66.0/24 AS7633 SOFTNET-AS-AP Software Technology Parks of India 202.179.67.0/24 AS7633 SOFTNET-AS-AP Software Technology Parks of India 202.179.68.0/24 AS7633 SOFTNET-AS-AP Software Technology Parks of India 202.189.234.0/23 AS9658 ETPI-IDS-AS-AP Eastern Telecoms Phils., Inc. 203.10.17.0/24 AS9266 VIPER-AU-AP Vipernet 203.10.18.0/24 AS9266 VIPER-AU-AP Vipernet 203.10.19.0/24 AS9266 VIPER-AU-AP Vipernet 203.10.21.0/24 AS9266 VIPER-AU-AP Vipernet 203.10.22.0/24 AS9266 VIPER-AU-AP Vipernet 203.10.23.0/24 AS9266 VIPER-AU-AP Vipernet 203.32.4.0/23 AS7617 APNIC-AS-2-BLOCK Asia Pacific Network Information Centre 203.62.0.0/17 AS7572 AARNET-ACT-RNO Australian Academic and Reasearch Network (AARNet) 203.76.128.0/24 AS9729 IS-AP iAdvantage Limited 203.76.224.0/24 AS9549 COMDEK-ISP-AS-AP Comdek ISP 203.86.2.0/23 AS4058 LINKAGENET-AP CPCNet Hong Kong Ltd. 203.90.192.0/20 AS9658 ETPI-IDS-AS-AP Eastern Telecoms Phils., Inc. 203.129.126.0/24 AS7473 SINGTEL-AS-AP Singapore Telecom 203.129.127.0/24 AS7473 SINGTEL-AS-AP Singapore Telecom 203.132.95.0/24 AS9787 CONCEPT-AU-AP Concept Networks 203.132.97.0/24 AS7652 VIANET-AS-AP Vianet Communications Pty Ltd 203.132.99.0/24 AS7657 TIG-US-PAS-AP The Internet Group Limited 203.132.102.0/24 AS9398 ARACHNET-AS-AP Arachnet 203.132.103.0/24 AS9398 ARACHNET-AS-AP Arachnet 203.132.104.0/24 AS9398 ARACHNET-AS-AP Arachnet 203.132.105.0/24 AS9398 ARACHNET-AS-AP Arachnet 203.132.106.0/24 AS9398 ARACHNET-AS-AP Arachnet 203.132.107.0/24 AS10236 FOXGOLD-NET-AU-AP FOXGOLD COMMUNICATIONS 203.132.108.0/24 AS10236 FOXGOLD-NET-AU-AP FOXGOLD COMMUNICATIONS 203.132.109.0/24 AS10141 CALOUNDRA-AS-AP Caloundra.net 203.132.110.0/24 AS7598 ALPHALINK-AS-AP Alphalink Pty Limited - Melbourne, Australia 203.132.111.0/24 AS10236 FOXGOLD-NET-AU-AP FOXGOLD COMMUNICATIONS 203.132.112.0/24 AS10236 FOXGOLD-NET-AU-AP FOXGOLD COMMUNICATIONS 203.132.118.0/24 AS18065 CENTRALDATA-WA Central Data Pty Ltd. 203.132.122.0/24 AS4802 WANTREE-AS-AP Wantree Development 203.132.123.0/24 AS18065 CENTRALDATA-WA Central Data Pty Ltd. 203.132.124.0/24 AS18065 CENTRALDATA-WA Central Data Pty Ltd. 203.132.125.0/24 AS4817 TECHEX1-AS-AP Techex Primary Netblock 203.135.99.0/24 AS2687 IBM-MMD-AS IBM 203.135.224.0/19 AS4058 LINKAGENET-AP CPCNet Hong Kong Ltd. 204.19.224.0/19 AS816 UUNET-AS4 UUNET Technologies, Inc. 204.29.189.0/24 AS3956 TX-METRO Texas Metronet 204.52.232.0/24 AS7177 DFWNET DFW Internet Services, Inc. 204.89.225.0/24 AS2495 KANREN Kansas Research and Education Network 204.154.126.0/24 AS3952 TELLABS-ASN TELLABS Operations, Inc. 204.194.110.0/23 AS10588 ICSNET Intelligent Computer Solutions, Inc 205.150.0.0/15 AS701 ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc. 206.41.32.0/19 AS14824 NEWSOUTH NewSouth Communications Corp. 206.81.187.0/24 AS19194 JOVITA Sentris Network LLC 206.82.64.0/18 AS7029 ALLTELNET Alltel Information Services, Inc. 206.108.34.0/24 AS852 ASN852 Telus Advanced Communications 206.108.35.0/24 AS852 ASN852 Telus Advanced Communications 206.167.57.0/24 AS376 RISQ-AS Reseau Interordinateurs Scientique Quebecois (RISQ) 206.191.64.0/18 AS15290 ATTCA-15290 AT&T Canada Telecom Services Company 206.251.69.0/24 AS27429 TIL Telesat International Ltd. 207.47.39.0/24 AS816 UUNET-AS4 UUNET Technologies, Inc. 207.162.192.0/19 AS4589 EASYNET Easynet Group Plc 207.231.96.0/19 AS11194 NUNETPA NuNet Inc 208.65.232.0/23 AS701 ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc. 208.81.187.0/24 AS19194 JOVITA Sentris Network LLC 208.104.103.0/24 AS1239 SPRINTLINK Sprint 209.151.128.0/19 AS816 UUNET-AS4 UUNET Technologies, Inc. 209.169.219.0/24 AS189 GENUITY-AS189 Genuity 209.169.223.0/24 AS189 GENUITY-AS189 Genuity 209.172.0.0/18 AS7770 TRITON Triton Technologies, Inc. 209.213.32.0/19 AS10629 INTERPAC Inter-Pacific Network Services 209.213.50.0/24 AS10629 INTERPAC Inter-Pacific Network Services 209.213.51.0/24 AS10629 INTERPAC Inter-Pacific Network Services 209.213.55.0/24 AS10629 INTERPAC Inter-Pacific Network Services 209.213.56.0/24 AS10629 INTERPAC Inter-Pacific Network Services 209.222.137.0/24 AS27429 TIL Telesat International Ltd. 209.240.96.0/19 AS10815 KCNET KCnet, Inc. 209.251.0.0/19 AS11036 SISCOM SISCOM, Inc 209.251.64.0/19 AS10266 NETWAY-AS MDC, Inc. 210.213.0.0/19 AS6453 TELEGLOBE-AS Teleglobe Inc 216.18.224.0/21 AS11458 IMBRIS IMBRIS, INC. 216.18.224.0/22 AS11458 IMBRIS IMBRIS, INC. 216.18.228.0/22 AS11458 IMBRIS IMBRIS, INC. 216.47.32.0/19 AS11304 SPLUS Solutions Plus Inc. 216.96.128.0/18 AS7018 ATT-INTERNET4 AT&T WorldNet Services 216.226.108.0/22 AS3602 SPRINT-CA-AS Sprint Canada Inc. Please see http://www.cidr-report.org for the full report ------------------------------------ Copies of this report are mailed to: nanog(a)merit.edu eof-list(a)ripe.net apops(a)apops.net routing-wg(a)ripe.net afnog(a)afnog.org

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Re: Yankee Group declares core routing obsolete (was Re: Anybody using GBICs?)
by Michael.Dillon＠radianz.com 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

>: > Plainly stated, routers no longer have a home in the core of the network. >: > "You might have found a router there five years ago, but most certainly >: > you have a switch today," said Yankee Group vice president Zeus Kerravala. >: >: What brand of switch is this guy selling? And what is he smoking? Sure >: would be interesting to find out :) >Vendor F *choke* *splutter* When will they learn that routers and switches are no longer differentiated by internal implementation details, i.e. software vs. hardware implementation? Nowadays both categories are implemented identically as a combination of hardware (where speed counts) and software (where flexibility and interoperability come first). Besides, there is no "THE core of THE network". Different networks have different core characteristics to deal with (size, customer base) and therefore choose different products. The old Internet, where everyone used more or less the same devices, is gone. Todays Internet is much bigger, more diverse, and engineered by people who have a lot higher skill level based on hard-won experience. Why do businesses keep supporting these "cheerleader" analyst groups who want to treat everything as some sort of fashion fad? --Michael Dillon

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RE: [arin-announce] IPv4 Address Space (fwd)
by Kuhtz, Christian 31 Oct '03

31 Oct '03

> Kuhtz, Christian wrote: > > Seems several commercial clients (such as Cisco's VPN client) offer > > workaround for that (tunneling IPSEC in a TCP session). > Works great. > Yup. there are various proprietary solutions that require us > to trash out an expensive and *working* VPN-1 solution, buy > an equally expensive and unfamilar solution, and retrain our > salesforce in the use of the new software - just to work > around NAT. Nice, isn't it? It is. And you can continue daydreaming and believe NAT will go away if you continue to whine about it. Or you can accept that it exists and deal with it because you got a business to run and don't have the luxury of jumping on one foot until IPv6 is everywhere (and somebody has convinced the telco's that it's really necessary to upgrade all their gear and the involved expense to support it natively). And I bet then still somebody will build an IPv6 NAT box for some bizarro reason. ***** "The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers.61"

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Re: Re: IPv6 NAT
by Narelle 30 Oct '03

30 Oct '03

<insert rant on somewhere after observable trigger point> > Owen DeLong <owen(a)delong.com> wrote: > In fact, Michael, there is no reason someone can't do everything you > describe with IPv4 if they are using unique address space. Now this is the point where my annoyance level goes up with the rampant aversion to IPv6 I see even in a community proud of its adoption of technology. I realise the "NA" in nanog stands for "an IP address and bandwidth rich region of the world", but frankly the IPv4 address policies and access levels are starting to get right up my nose. The premises *you* are working on simply do not hold in the nations where data comms is really starting to take off. Think Asia. Have a good hard look at how IP telephony on a large scale - even in NA and Au - is going to have to be rolled out: - encryption engines all over the place, with multiple encryption adds and removes - multiple identity verification checks - NAT and un-NAT points potentially at more than one place along the way - firewalls and filters changed everywhere - proprietary fixes and weird new stupid protocols migcom?? - multiple compression points when we should be looking at ways of flagging this in the headers and preserving type v6 *has* IPSec, QoS and the concept of any to any built in. It's *not* a work around. It's how it works. We are making things much harder for ourselves increment by increment. We are lining ourselves up for massive amounts of rework in a few years time. By that time I will be getting too old to think it through and by that time you children who have lived all your lives in a NATted v4 world won't understand what it's like to stroll down the information street or meet in a public place or library! Maybe you already don't! We need to stop pretending we live in a world of secured networks and build security back into the whole proposition! v6 gives us that opportunity. While I'm at it I'll remind people that extranets work much more nicely when in uniquely numbered space. So even in the quasi private space we've stuffed up. Yeah sure, MPLS partly fixes this, but it still causes unwanted complexity along the way. And these stupid little poxy - sorry pRoxy - home "routers" (1) that proxy everything fine one day and lose their configs, or goodness knows what the next, and you go from six (2) home computers connected to one or none, are absolute rubbish! I'm starting to think we're seriously missing out. <end rant> :-) Narelle Clark narellec(a)optusnet.com.au getting in touch with her inner bofh (1) these things are bridges and they don't even bridge properly, regardless of what it says on the packaging, let alone terminate PPP over whatever it claims to be today. Can someone tell these fools that PPP stands for 'POINT to POINT' protocol? Not kludge over multiple media??? (2) six home computers does not mean a business, nor high bandwidth use. It means a *family*. We are a multilingual (OS wise) household. They are not new and the computers have more Internet experience than many "techies" I see.

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'Net security gets root-level boost
by Hank Nussbacher 30 Oct '03

30 Oct '03

http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2003/1027ddos.html -Hank

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