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RE: VoIP outage (was: Cogent/Level 3 depeering)
by Michael.Dillon＠btradianz.com 06 Oct '05

06 Oct '05

> 1000 users, 15 hours, isn't all that much when you think about it - At some > point in the near future, an split such as this is almost assured ofhaving FCC > attention due to the consequential consumer & business impact. If I understand the way existing VoIP service work, this depeering situation means that VoIP customers, trying to call from one network to another, will not be able to connect because the VoIP provider does not relay voice packets. So the VoIP provider will see that both the calling and called party are on the net, however the flow of voice packets will fail. Has anyone asked Vonage and others what they think of this? It is almost certain to be affecting some of their customers. --Michael Dillon

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Re: Banks and VCs (was: Cogent/Level 3 depeering)
by Michael.Dillon＠btradianz.com 06 Oct '05

06 Oct '05

> All the > while, Cogent undercuts the market of every other carrier who isn't as > efficient as they are, leading to massive losses, bankruptcy filing after > bankruptcy filing, out of court reorganizations and purchases for foreign > companies, etc. Banks and Venture Capitalists love this. They think in terms of markets, not in terms of companies. Banks and VCs both make more money when a market is not overcrowded with competitors. Obviously, if you can spend a bit of money to fund a company which will kill off all the weaker competitors, and make that money back in a strong company who benefits from larger market share, then it makes sense in the big picture. I don't have any evidence that this is what is happening in this case, however this kind of thing is done to stabilise markets. To the winner go the spoils. All the network assets are not destroyed. For the most part they are aggregated into the networks of companies who buy the bankrupt assets. Sometimes a network operator will buy and integrate a functioning network. Other times, the corporate customer base will buy the boxes and become more likely to buy bandwidth from surviving operators. > To force either > one to peer by law or regulation would be even more disruptive to the > industry as a whole, which may even lead to a complete collapse of the > existing peering system as we know it. I think that's too harsh. It would certainly lead to change but that is not the same as collapse. If companies were forced by law to peer, then they would have to do so under a settlement system. Since IP network revenue flow is not based on the end-point usage (per minute call charges) there is no need to engage in massive data collection and analysis as the voice business does. Something based simply on netflow data from peering interconnects combined with the the average bandwidth price on each companies top ten customer contracts would add very little cost to computing the settlement amount. I don't advocate one way or another. But I do expect to see things change when there is instability. --Michael Dillon

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Re: Cogent/Level 3 depeering
by Michael.Dillon＠btradianz.com 06 Oct '05

06 Oct '05

> Depeering never makes sense to me. Customers of both companies are > expecting their vendor to connect them to the customers of the other > company. These customers are each paying their respective vendor for > this service. Why should one vendor pay the other for this traffic that > is mutually beneficial to them while the other pays nothing? Why does > the amount of bandwidth or the direction it travels make any difference? > The customers are PAYING for the bandwidth. If each vendor pays their > own costs to a peering point then they should be passing that cost onto > their respective customers as part of the *customer's* bandwidth bill. Perhaps someone wants to make this argument before a judge in order to set a legal precedent for mandatory peering with settlements? --Michael Dillon

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Re: Who is a Tier 1? (was: Cogent/Level 3 depeering)
by Michael.Dillon＠btradianz.com 06 Oct '05

06 Oct '05

> Cogent and L3 had _no_ interconnectivity besides the direct peering > relationship. L3 knew it, Cogent knew it. L3 made a decision to > sever that direct relationship, and bifurcation ensued. This was not > only not a surprised, it was expected. Whether Cogent is a "tier > one" or not is irrelevant to the decision, and the resulting effects. I suspect that the consumer definition of "Tier 1" is something like "provides good connectivity to the entire Internet". By this definition, L3 and Cogent are not currently tier 1 providers. The consumers that I had in mind are the VP finance types who approve the spend on Internet services. A few years ago you could probably bamboozle them about your secret sauce containing "transit free", "peering", "x exchange points" and so on. Today I suspect they are less susceptible to that kind of story and more likely to rely on the experience of existing customers. And if the existing customers of L3 and Cogent are experiencing agony, what kind of marketing story does that tell? --Michael Dillon

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Re: Turkey has switched Root-Servers
by Evren Demirkan 06 Oct '05

06 Oct '05

Ok So what, I am located in Turkiye..Can Any one simplify the whole stuff in plain English? Evren Demirkan

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RE: Cogent/Level 3 depeering
by Hannigan, Martin 06 Oct '05

06 Oct '05

> Now Cogent is also offering free transit for single-homed > L3 customers to spite L3 after depeering - majority of such > single-homed > transit customers are in fact these dsl/dialup ISPs Cogent is after > which is why they were willing to make this offer ... Didn't the free peering offer happen _yesterday_ as a result of the disengagement? It's a tactic. Tommorrow, Level(3) could come out with the same. It's not sustainable by either. Nothing is free. We all know this. > > Now with 0 transit cost and 0 equipment cost (mostly old > dialup equipment > loans for which have by now been paid for) You mean amortization? Yes, it's about that. They deployed most of the dial gear in 98, 99. I'm sure augmentations happened after that. Anyhow. What you don't understand is the architecture sans TDM switching, ala SS7 bypass. That's what makes the $5 nut a reality. > its no wonder > dialup providers > are able to offer it at $5/mo if somebody else takes care of > the customer > support & billing ... That's what the other $1 to $10 dollars the retailers are charging is for, William. -M<

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RE: Cogent/Level 3 depeering
by Hannigan, Martin 06 Oct '05

06 Oct '05

> You say that as if the only move to be made is on Cogent's > side. What > about L3? If every L3 customer complained to L3, demanded service > credits, claimed the contract was in default, and swore to never buy > from L3 again, maybe L3 would budge instead. > How is this relevant again? What IX's do you peer at? -M<

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RE: Cogent/Level 3 depeering
by Hannigan, Martin 06 Oct '05

06 Oct '05

> At 10:46 PM 10/5/2005, you wrote: > > >ok, vijay popping up is not totally surprising, but twice? > >dorian was a bit of a surprise. but you, joe? coming out of > >the woodwork? the lack of clue in this thread must be *really* > >painful. > > It's pretty evident that this has been a clue-free thread... Welcome to the thread. -M<

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RE: Cogent/Level 3 depeering
by Hannigan, Martin 06 Oct '05

06 Oct '05

> > Just curious - Has this activity impacted voice services for > anyone, and/or > has either opened a FCC NORS report? Why could you open a NORS unless it's impacting LD and meet-me minutes? :-) -M<

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Re: Cogent/Level 3 depeering
by Mike Tancsa 05 Oct '05

05 Oct '05

At 02:47 PM 05/10/2005, Douglas Dever wrote: > > fact remains that Cogent is not providing the service I'm paying them > > for and they need to get it fixed. > >Really? As you already pointed out, your packets are reaching their >destination. So, they don't "need" to get anything "fixed." I think what people are upset about is that you now have less redundancy now if you are a cogent transit customer. If I tell my customers, "I have 3 full transit links", I now have to put an * there. If my 2 non cogent links go down, I dont have a full visibility of the Internet. I see everything, except Level3. It becomes more acute if you have just 2 transit links-- Cogent and one other. What if your other provider has a lossy path to Level 3 ? You cant work around it by preferencing 174 3356 ---Mike

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