June 2010 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Future of WiMax
by Seth Mattinen 01 Jul '10

01 Jul '10

A while back I remember reading a comment here that "WiMax is not a future proof technology" and that several manufacturers have dropped it or something to that effect. I think it was in the starting a WiMax ISP thread. This has stuck in my head, and I was curious if there was any truth to this. WiMax sounds promising, but I certainly don't hear a lot about it other than Sprint/Clear. Is it just that everyone that's doing wireless is sticking with relatively inexpensive 802.11 a/b/g/n products, or is WiMax really a dead end? ~Seth

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Re: Future of WiMax
by Gregory Hicks 30 Jun '10

30 Jun '10

> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:35:16 -0700 > From: Seth Mattinen <sethm(a)rollernet.us> > > WiMax sounds promising, but I certainly don't hear a lot about it other > than Sprint/Clear. Is it just that everyone that's doing wireless is > sticking with relatively inexpensive 802.11 a/b/g/n products, or is > WiMax really a dead end? Sprint/Clear certainly thinks it has promise. They just put up a wireless tower just next door to my house in San Jose... (Well, Clear actually received permission from the city zoning dept...) Regards, Gregory Hicks > > ~Seth > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory Hicks | Principal Systems Engineer | Direct: 408.569.7928 People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf -- George Orwell The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. -- Thomas Jefferson "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton

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Contract negotiations advice?
by Patrick Giagnocavo 29 Jun '10

29 Jun '10

I am dealing with a large telecom which purchased the small telecom I signed a contract with. Despite signing only 1 contract with them, the two racks, and the bandwidth which feeds 1 rack (I connect privately to the second rack at no charge) all have different termination dates. How signing one contract resulted in 3 different end of term dates, months apart, I can't quite figure out. Can anyone point me to a mailing list or discussion forum containing advice on dealing with such issues? And the wider issue of negotiating good rates with telecoms? Cordially Patrick Giagnocavo patrick(a)zill.net

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Re: Contract negotiations advice?
by Adam LaFountain 29 Jun '10

29 Jun '10

> > I am dealing with a large telecom which purchased the small telecom I > signed a contract with. > > Despite signing only 1 contract with them, the two racks, and the > bandwidth which feeds 1 rack (I connect privately to the second rack at > no charge) all have different termination dates. > > Check your billing. Did your first invoice have all of your services? How about the second one? If they didn't bill you on time, it's partially your fault. If they did bill you for everything, then you have empirical evidence showing when you started the term (by performance.. paying) and their dates are wrong. > How signing one contract resulted in 3 different end of term dates, > months apart, I can't quite figure out. > > Did your original vendor provide a turn-up or activation notice? This should indicate the date that would go in their system to indicate term expiration. > Can anyone point me to a mailing list or discussion forum containing > advice on dealing with such issues? And the wider issue of negotiating > good rates with telecoms? Typical economics, more volume leads to better deals; growth appeal; competitive reference, etc.

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RE: Contract negotiations advice?
by Jimi Thompson 29 Jun '10

29 Jun '10

First thing is to be an educated consumer. Know what going rates and sla s cost for a given service. Also check the rep of the vendor. I find that competitive bids work well. Unless your a gov or something you dont have to take the lowest bid - take the best one. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Giagnocavo <patrick(a)zill.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 10:32 AM To: NANOG <nanog(a)nanog.org> Subject: Contract negotiations advice? I am dealing with a large telecom which purchased the small telecom I signed a contract with. Despite signing only 1 contract with them, the two racks, and the bandwidth which feeds 1 rack (I connect privately to the second rack at no charge) all have different termination dates. How signing one contract resulted in 3 different end of term dates, months apart, I can't quite figure out. Can anyone point me to a mailing list or discussion forum containing advice on dealing with such issues? And the wider issue of negotiating good rates with telecoms? Cordially Patrick Giagnocavo patrick(a)zill.net

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Geolocation contact for Bing/Microsoft?
by Schiller, Heather A (HeatherSkanks) 29 Jun '10

29 Jun '10

Can someone from Bing/MS contact me about correcting Geolocation info for some IP's. Folks are erroneously getting redirected - and I can't find any info about how to get it fixed. Thanks, --Heather ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Heather Schiller Network Security - Verizon Business 1.800.900.0241 security(a)verizonbusiness.com

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Broadband initiatives - impact to your network?
by Jonathan Feldman 29 Jun '10

29 Jun '10

I'm one of the reporters who covers broadband and cloud computing for InformationWeek magazine (www.informationweek.com) and it's interesting to me that one of the issues with cloud adoption has to do with the limited pipe networks available in this country. For example, it's not feasible to do a massive data load through the networks that are currently available -- you need to FedEx a hard drive to Amazon. Holy cow, it's SneakerNet for the 21st Century! Initiatives like the federal BTOP (Broadband Technology Opportunity Program) and Google's infamous (and so far invisible) fiber program promise to change, by orders of magnitude, the pipe that's available to most folks, and therefore change equations like SneakerNet for cloud loads. Surely the backbone will also need to be much more capacious, with middle mile changes like this. I am interested in hearing from folks on this list about the impacts that these programs are having on your network build-out and management plans. I'm also interested in hearing your perspective on real network management issues that could either be caused by or fixed by proposed FCC regulation of broadband. I don't have a political axe to grind, and I know that broadband is something of a political issue right now. But there are pragmatics that data center managers and CIOs have to deal with every day, and knowing what's coming up on the national broadband agenda is becoming more and more important. You can reply to me either on-list, or off-list (jf(a)feldman.org) if you want to remain anonymous. My deadline is Monday, close of business (5pm ET). Thanks so much for your perspective. --Jonathan Jonathan Feldman Contributing Editor, InformationWeek http://www.informationweek.com Twitter: @_jfeldman

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RE: NANOG Digest, Vol 29, Issue 81
by Stephen Tandy 29 Jun '10

29 Jun '10

x Sent from my Windows® phone. -----Original Message----- From: nanog-request(a)nanog.org <nanog-request(a)nanog.org> Sent: 28 June 2010 23:52 To: nanog(a)nanog.org <nanog(a)nanog.org> Subject: NANOG Digest, Vol 29, Issue 81 Send NANOG mailing list submissions to nanog(a)nanog.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nanog-request(a)nanog.org You can reach the person managing the list at nanog-owner(a)nanog.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of NANOG digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: BGP Tool for Simulation (Luigi Iannone) 2. Re: BGP Tool for Simulation (Tom Pipes) 3. Penetration test vendors (George Bonser) 4. Re: BGP Tool for Simulation (Christopher Gatlin) 5. Global Crossing POC (Steven Fischer) 6. Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? (Christopher Morrow) 7. Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? (Nick Hilliard) 8. Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? (Jonathan Feldman) 9. Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? (Stefano Gridelli) 10. Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? (Randy Bush) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 15:02:40 +0200 From: Luigi Iannone <luigi(a)net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de> Subject: Re: BGP Tool for Simulation Cc: nanog(a)nanog.org Message-ID: <0701129F-F610-4C2A-A1C1-E684E839750C(a)net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I recently came across NetKit that seems to offer what you are looking for... http://wiki.netkit.org/index.php/Main_Page L. On Jun 28, 2010, at 12:32 , Lynchehaun, Patrick (Patrick) wrote: > > You could use load sbgp/mrtd script to load route dumps. There is also bgpsimple http://code.google.com/p/bgpsimple/wiki/README > This also brings up another question, anyone know of v6 rib tool on unix to load v6 route dumps. > > Tks, > Patrick. > > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:04:54 -0400 > From: Jack Carrozzo <jack(a)crepinc.com> > Subject: Re: BGP Tool for Simulation > To: giulianocm(a)uol.com.br > Cc: North American Network Operators Group <nanog(a)merit.edu> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTik_iMlcU-GbwJim4VbqT0BtEeAd6AfNBBTn9ArS(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Roll quagga / BGPd on *nix and bring up sessions with whatever you like. > > For full tables, you can either hack up a few lines of perl to output a bunch of 'network a.b.c.d' lines from any of the available text looking glasses into the bgpd conf, or just bring up ebgp-multihop session with one of your borders or one of your friends. Prefix lists, communities, etc are all supported. > > -Jack Carrozzo > > On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:32 PM, GIULIANOCM (UOL) <giulianocm(a)uol.com.br>wrote: > >> People, >> >> I am looking for a tool (free or not) to simulate BGP full internet >> route table peering and injection using real CISCO and JUNIPER routers. >> >> We have found some power tools like Spirent or Agilent but they are a >> too expensive to acquire for now. >> >> The main idea is to have a software tool for unix or linux system, >> that supports to simulate a cloud a carrier or an ISP, to work with >> real routers, establishing connection using BGP protocol and injecting >> on this real routers the full internet routing table - ipv4 or ipv6. >> >> Do you know some collection of tools (software tools) that we can use >> to do this kind of work ? >> >> It is possible to collect full internet routing table and inject it to >> a real router using a software for simulate real conditions ? >> >> Besides, the tool will need some additional features in simulation >> like the set of communities, local preference, med and other BGP attributes. >> >> What do you recommend for this tasks ? >> >> Thanks a lot, >> >> Giuliano >> >> > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > NANOG mailing list > NANOG(a)nanog.org > https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog > > End of NANOG Digest, Vol 29, Issue 79 > ************************************* > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 08:52:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Pipes <tom.pipes(a)t6mail.com> Subject: Re: BGP Tool for Simulation To: lists(a)billfehring.com, giulianocm(a)uol.com.br Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Message-ID: <3368983.1033751277733173382.JavaMail.root@zimbra> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello Giuliano, Along with the recommendation of dynamips, I would suggest downloading gns3, which ties into dynamips.? You can run the same version of IOS that you are working with in production, and there are versions for Windows/*nix. http://www.gns3.net/ It acts more like an emulators at first glance, and does not seem to have the same limitations as some of the other simulators out there.? Just make sure you have the hardware to support it. Thanks, --- Tom Pipes T6 Broadband/ Essex Telcom Inc tom.pipes(a)t6mail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Fehring" <lists(a)billfehring.com> To: giulianocm(a)uol.com.br Cc: "North American Network Operators Group" <nanog(a)merit.edu> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 11:37:17 PM Subject: Re: BGP Tool for Simulation Oi Giulianao, I've used this in the past to dump a lot of routes into test networks: http://code.google.com/p/bgpsimple/ Tutorial: http://evilrouters.net/2009/08/21/getting-bgp-routes-into-dynamips-with-vid… There's a similar project written in python, but I can't find it right now. HTH, -Bill Fehring On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 18:32, GIULIANOCM (UOL) <giulianocm(a)uol.com.br> wrote: > People, > > I am looking for a tool (free or not) to simulate BGP full internet route > table peering and injection using real CISCO and JUNIPER routers. > > We have found some power tools like Spirent or Agilent but they are a too > expensive to acquire for now. > > The main idea is to have a software tool for unix or linux system, that > supports to simulate a cloud a carrier or an ISP, to work with real routers, > establishing connection using BGP protocol and injecting on this real > routers the full internet routing table - ipv4 or ipv6. > > Do you know some collection of tools (software tools) that we can use to do > this kind of work ? > > It is possible to collect full internet routing table and inject it to a > real router using a software for simulate real conditions ? > > Besides, the tool will need some additional features in simulation like the > set of communities, local preference, med and other BGP attributes. > > What do you recommend for this tasks ? > > Thanks a lot, > > Giuliano > > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 08:01:37 -0700 From: "George Bonser" <gbonser(a)seven.com> Subject: Penetration test vendors To: <nanog(a)nanog.org> Message-ID: <5A6D953473350C4B9995546AFE9939EE09EA4E70(a)RWC-EX1.corp.seven.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would like to thank everyone who provided their recommendations both on and off list. There was a lot of off-list response but not exactly what I had expected to see. I had expected to see a lot of different vendors but also expected to see a couple that several would recommend. That really didn't happen. Practically every single suggestion was a different vendor. There was one vendor that got multiple recommendations but it was also the only vendor that multiple people recommended avoiding. In fact, it was the only vendor that anyone recommended to avoid. As I now have a list of many vendors that I didn't know existed, I will sort through the mail later today or tomorrow and consolidate the list. The lesson seems to be that everyone seems to have someone different that they trust to test their network and that a more in-depth look at the recommendations is in order. Thanks again, everyone. George ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 11:25:30 -0500 From: Christopher Gatlin <chris(a)travelingtech.net> Subject: Re: BGP Tool for Simulation To: Tom Pipes <tom.pipes(a)t6mail.com> Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Message-ID: <AANLkTikC-yZHxZGP-BOZh_aY0o5FwJoZbc4yeDf_WdG4(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 These folks make a tester that loads up BGP very nicely. http://www.spirent.com/ http://www.spirent.com/Solutions-Directory/Smartbits.aspx Chris On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Tom Pipes <tom.pipes(a)t6mail.com> wrote: > > > Hello Giuliano, > > > > Along with the recommendation of dynamips, I would suggest downloading > gns3, which ties into dynamips. You can run the same version of IOS that > you are working with in production, and there are versions for Windows/*nix. > > > > http://www.gns3.net/ > > > > It acts more like an emulators at first glance, and does not seem to have > the same limitations as some of the other simulators out there. Just make > sure you have the hardware to support it. > > > > Thanks, > > > > --- > Tom Pipes > T6 Broadband/ > Essex Telcom Inc > tom.pipes(a)t6mail.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Fehring" <lists(a)billfehring.com> > To: giulianocm(a)uol.com.br > Cc: "North American Network Operators Group" <nanog(a)merit.edu> > Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 11:37:17 PM > Subject: Re: BGP Tool for Simulation > > Oi Giulianao, > > I've used this in the past to dump a lot of routes into test networks: > > http://code.google.com/p/bgpsimple/ > > Tutorial: > http://evilrouters.net/2009/08/21/getting-bgp-routes-into-dynamips-with-vid… > > There's a similar project written in python, but I can't find it right now. > > HTH, > > -Bill Fehring > > On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 18:32, GIULIANOCM (UOL) <giulianocm(a)uol.com.br> > wrote: > > People, > > > > I am looking for a tool (free or not) to simulate BGP full internet route > > table peering and injection using real CISCO and JUNIPER routers. > > > > We have found some power tools like Spirent or Agilent but they are a too > > expensive to acquire for now. > > > > The main idea is to have a software tool for unix or linux system, that > > supports to simulate a cloud a carrier or an ISP, to work with real > routers, > > establishing connection using BGP protocol and injecting on this real > > routers the full internet routing table - ipv4 or ipv6. > > > > Do you know some collection of tools (software tools) that we can use to > do > > this kind of work ? > > > > It is possible to collect full internet routing table and inject it to a > > real router using a software for simulate real conditions ? > > > > Besides, the tool will need some additional features in simulation like > the > > set of communities, local preference, med and other BGP attributes. > > > > What do you recommend for this tasks ? > > > > Thanks a lot, > > > > Giuliano > > > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 15:37:01 -0400 From: Steven Fischer <sfischer1967(a)gmail.com> Subject: Global Crossing POC To: NANOG list <nanog(a)nanog.org> Message-ID: <AANLkTikxjEe_VzkVNse5g6rx0n0ApcvjeeLO_hzYKVUv(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Can someone from Global Crossing contact me off-list regarding some routing anomolies we are seeing? Thanks. -- To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 17:46:00 -0400 From: Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? To: Jonathan Feldman <jf(a)feldman.org> Cc: nanog(a)nanog.org Message-ID: <AANLkTilfqNvjwj3cH9RA9hj_J2-f7N-DxZ4H60sAfkS4(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Jonathan Feldman <jf(a)feldman.org> wrote: > I'm one of the reporters who covers broadband and cloud computing for > InformationWeek magazine (www.informationweek.com) and it's interesting to > me that one of the issues with cloud adoption has to do with the limited > pipe networks available in this country. For example, it's not feasible to > do a massive data load through the networks that are currently available -- > you need to FedEx a hard drive to Amazon. ?Holy cow, it's SneakerNet for the > 21st Century! is this a 'this country' bandwidth problem or the problem that moving 10tb of 'corporate data' in a 'secure fashion' from 'office' to 'cloud' really isn't a simple task? and that cutting a DB over at a point in time 'next tuesday!' is far easier done by shipping a point-in-time copy of the DB via sata-drive than 'holy cow copy this over the corp ds3, while we make sure not to kill it for mail/web/etc other corporate normal uses' ? The broadband plan stuff mostly covers consumers, not enterprises, most of the (amazon as the example here) cloud folks offer disk-delivery options for businesses. you seem to be comparing apples to oranges, no? -chris ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 22:59:59 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard <nick(a)foobar.org> Subject: Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? To: nanog(a)nanog.org Message-ID: <4C291B5F.5030708(a)foobar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 27/06/2010 14:03, Jonathan Feldman wrote: > For example, it's not feasible to do a massive data load through the > networks that are currently available -- you need to FedEx a hard drive > to Amazon. Holy cow, it's SneakerNet for the 21st Century! Never underestimate the bandwidth of a stationwagon full of $current_high_density_storage_media. Nick ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:26:41 -0400 From: Jonathan Feldman <jf(a)feldman.org> Subject: Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? To: Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists(a)gmail.com> Cc: nanog(a)nanog.org Message-ID: <8B403135-63AC-4C32-A77A-5483AD6A4931(a)feldman.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes More than one person has pointed out that offline media will always be higher bandwidth than transmission lines (but nobody with such elegance and hilarity as Nick Hilliard's last post). Point taken. The question, in my mind, is whether it's reasonable to ask that regional providers reach the same bar as privately owned campus networks. I don't agree with you, Christopher, that the broadband plan won't affect corporate users. I know that this list _mostly_ consists of operators, but I've gotten some offline responses to my initial query that seem to indicate that enterprise users utilize SOHO (consumer grade, but with higher speeds) for various branch office needs. Also, when a technology gets "consumerized" it tends to create interesting effects in terms of features and price points. Think of it this way: where would corporate mobile phones be without the consumer effect? We'd still be carrying them around in bags and only corporate officers would have them. I appreciate everyone's response! On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:46 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: > On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Jonathan Feldman <jf(a)feldman.org> > wrote: >> I'm one of the reporters who covers broadband and cloud computing for >> InformationWeek magazine (www.informationweek.com) and it's >> interesting to >> me that one of the issues with cloud adoption has to do with the >> limited >> pipe networks available in this country. For example, it's not >> feasible to >> do a massive data load through the networks that are currently >> available -- >> you need to FedEx a hard drive to Amazon. Holy cow, it's >> SneakerNet for the >> 21st Century! > > is this a 'this country' bandwidth problem or the problem that moving > 10tb of 'corporate data' in a 'secure fashion' from 'office' to > 'cloud' really isn't a simple task? and that cutting a DB over at a > point in time 'next tuesday!' is far easier done by shipping a > point-in-time copy of the DB via sata-drive than 'holy cow copy this > over the corp ds3, while we make sure not to kill it for mail/web/etc > other corporate normal uses' ? > > The broadband plan stuff mostly covers consumers, not enterprises, > most of the (amazon as the example here) cloud folks offer > disk-delivery options for businesses. > > you seem to be comparing apples to oranges, no? > > -chris ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:30:24 -0400 From: Stefano Gridelli <sgridelli(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? To: Nick Hilliard <nick(a)foobar.org> Cc: nanog(a)nanog.org Message-ID: <AANLkTimHkZKOL2wIb7hw5PUs2Y29B9jVLtcW9G-DAV6e(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 ... as Andrew T teaches ... :D On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 5:59 PM, Nick Hilliard <nick(a)foobar.org> wrote: > On 27/06/2010 14:03, Jonathan Feldman wrote: > > For example, it's not feasible to do a massive data load through the > > networks that are currently available -- you need to FedEx a hard drive > > to Amazon. Holy cow, it's SneakerNet for the 21st Century! > > Never underestimate the bandwidth of a stationwagon full of > $current_high_density_storage_media. > > Nick > > ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 07:50:10 +0900 From: Randy Bush <randy(a)psg.com> Subject: Re: Broadband initiatives - impact to your network? To: Jonathan Feldman <jf(a)feldman.org> Cc: nanog(a)nanog.org Message-ID: <m2iq52bwm5.wl%randy(a)psg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > The question, in my mind, is whether it's reasonable to ask that > regional providers reach the same bar as privately owned campus > networks. you are comparing LAN to WAN, never a bright idea randy ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NANOG mailing list NANOG(a)nanog.org https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog End of NANOG Digest, Vol 29, Issue 81 *************************************

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Sources of network security templates or designs
by Sean Donelan 29 Jun '10

29 Jun '10

While every network designer/architect with an emphasis on security has his or her favorite design templates, I'm wondering what public sources do people start with? Cisco SAFE and other published designs IBM Redbooks DOD Security Technical Implementation Guides (STIGs) NIST Special Publications O'Reilly series (specific books?) Of course, every designer customizes things based on the project and preferences. So I'm not asking for what's best, or even what's wrong with particular sources. Just where do you start?

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Re: [mailop] Virbl: The First IPv6 enabled dnsbl?
by Tammy A. Wisdom 28 Jun '10

28 Jun '10

----- "Mark Schouten" <marks(a)bit.nl> wrote: > Hi, > > FYI: > > http://virbl.bit.nl/index.php#ipv6 > > Comments on the listing method are appreciated. > > Regards, > wow bind? thats gonna get slower and slower and slower. I hope you have a TON of ram for that box. for example if we loaded the current contents of the ahbl from rbldnsd to bind it would take up a TON of ram. bind would take forever to load and and would be screaming for its dear life. --Tammy Tammy A Wisdom The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org ****************************************************************************** Disclaimer: This e-mail may contain trade secrets or privileged, undisclosed or otherwise confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, you are hereby notified that any review, copying or distribution of it is strictly prohibited. Please inform us immediately and destroy the original transmittal. Thank you for your cooperation. ******************************************************************************

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