October 2007 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Broadwing / Level3 issues in Dallas
by W. Kevin Hunt 11 Oct '07

11 Oct '07

Anyone else seeing issues in Dallas on Bwing/L3 ? We have an OC12 w/ them that terminates in Dallas and anything past dallas is extremely latent/lossy... I'd included a traceroute, but it's ANY destination preferring them for outbound or inbound and I've since turned down my peer to them.

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Akamai Contact?
by Koch, Christian 11 Oct '07

11 Oct '07

Can anyone from akamai contact me off list? Your noc is not being very resposnive... Christian

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wanted: offshore hosting
by travis+ml-nanog＠subspacefield.org 11 Oct '07

11 Oct '07

Hello all. Last time I asked for a hosting place, I ended up going with LayeredTech, but I can give you a list of options if you like. So, I'd like to rent a box somewhere outside of the US, for geographic redundancy and other reasons. Must be dedicated hosting, relatively cheap bandwidth, lots of space (500GB?), allow us to run Debian Linux, take US credit cards. No tech support other than rebooting the box needed. I'd prefer if they spoke English, but weren't in the UK or US. I could deal with it if they only spoke Spanish. A reputable Brazilian shop would be nice, but I'm pretty open to any suggestions. Does anyone have good experience with any outfits that match this description? Thanks! -- <URL:http://www.subspacefield.org/~travis/> Eff the ineffable! For a good time on my UBE blacklist, email john(a)subspacefield.org.

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Lightning talks at NANOG 41
by Steve Feldman 11 Oct '07

11 Oct '07

We have reserved at least one hour of the NANOG 41 agenda for "Lightning Talks". A lightning talk is a very short presentation or speech by any attendee on any topic relevant to the NANOG audience. These are limited to ten minutes; this will be strictly enforced. If you have a topic that's timely, interesting, or even a crackpot idea you want to share, we encourage you to consider presenting it. The Program Committee will decide which submissions are relevant (using criteria based on the NANOG mailing list AUP) and choose the best ones to be presented. Use of slides is optional. All slides must be in PDF or Powerpoint format, and will be loaded in advance onto the speaker laptop on the podium. There is a good overview of the use of lightning talks at the Perl conference at http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/07/30/lightningtalk.html. Although their format is slightly different, many of their ideas will apply here. To submit a lightning talk proposal for NANOG 41, go to http://www.nanogpc.org/lightning/ Submissions are open starting now, and close at 5:00 PM MDT on Monday, October 15. See you in Albuquerque! Steve Feldman PC Chair

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RE: OT: Visio or Autocad
by Eric Lutvak 10 Oct '07

10 Oct '07

It is my uinderstanding that we should use what really works for the individual.. Just because certain individuals OVERUSE Visio for various reasons, I feel that the usage of the best tool to fit the situation is perfectly acceptable. In the end, the printout will still look the same right?? If people want to update the diagram, I feel if you are the source of this diagram then unless you specifically delegate control to someone all revisions should come from or be made by you.. I personally think Visio is way too complex and over done.. Microsoft makes it complicated so that they can not only make money on the purchase of the license, but also rake in the $ from potentially unnecessary training due to the complexity that they have built into the nature of the application.. IE: Microsoft: lets make it so everyone could have a use for it, and lets make it so complicated that we can recover on the training aspect.. It's the Micro$oft Way, rather than fight it, just sitback and be assimiliated. Sounds like a startrek thing.. ;) Although, on the flipside, Microsoft does have it's place in the community, most of their applications seem to help increase productivity and seem to be researched and developed pretty deeply.. Bottom line is, Time and place for everything. Thanks 4 ur time and attention, all the best, e. -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of William Herrin Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 5:11 PM To: Stephen Fulton Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: OT: Visio or Autocad On 10/10/07, Stephen Fulton <sf(a)lists.esoteric.ca> wrote: > Is anyone using Autocad for network design? What are your thoughts? Stephen, I still use Corel Draw 3 for my network diagrams, so its not unheard of to use something other than Visio. The main benefit to Visio comes when -someone else- needs to make an update to your network diagram. They probably have access to a copy of Visio and enough knowledge about using it to make a minor tweak to your diagram. The same can't be said of Autocad. Or Corel Draw. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin herrin(a)dirtside.com bill(a)herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/> Falls Church, VA 22042-3004

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RE: OT: Visio or Autocad
by Eric Lutvak 10 Oct '07

10 Oct '07

-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog(a)merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of William Herrin Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 5:11 PM To: Stephen Fulton Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: OT: Visio or Autocad On 10/10/07, Stephen Fulton <sf(a)lists.esoteric.ca> wrote: > Is anyone using Autocad for network design? What are your thoughts? Stephen, I still use Corel Draw 3 for my network diagrams, so its not unheard of to use something other than Visio. The main benefit to Visio comes when -someone else- needs to make an update to your network diagram. They probably have access to a copy of Visio and enough knowledge about using it to make a minor tweak to your diagram. The same can't be said of Autocad. Or Corel Draw. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin herrin(a)dirtside.com bill(a)herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/> Falls Church, VA 22042-3004

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OT: Visio or Autocad
by Stephen Fulton 10 Oct '07

10 Oct '07

Greetings all, A good friend of mine swears that Autocad is superior for network design to Visio. I don't disagree, but only because I have never used Autocad for network design. So far Visio has generally met my needs when I'm working on a design, but I have found it lacking (or perhaps just my Visio skills?) when trying to merge L2 and L3 designs. Most of the time I start from scratch on each layer, but it does become a burden as changes are made once the design becomes operational, and over its' lifetime. Is anyone using Autocad for network design? What are your thoughts? -- Stephen.

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PGP Keysigning at NANOG 41
by Joe Abley 10 Oct '07

10 Oct '07

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, We will be engaging in our usual high-energy key-signing frenzy (which is to say, fairly low-energy and altogether too much hexadecimal) in Albuquerque. To join in, see the detailed instructions that will appear linked from the main NANOG page in due course. Here's a brief summary: 1. Generate a key, if you don't already have one, and paste it into this handy form: <http://biglumber.com/x/web?keyring=8482>. You can do this now. 2. Come to one or more key-signing sessions in Albuquerque, armed with a known-accurate copy of your key's fingerprint and some photo id (so others can acquire confidence in your identity). We will be signing keys during the morning and afternoon breaks on Monday, and in the morning break on Tuesday, in the Fiesta room. 3. When you acquire confidence in the authenticity of others' keys, sign them and distribute the newly-signed copy far and wide. That's it! And people say crypto is hard. Joe -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) iQIVAwUBRw1mzhSFocuCahKjAQJ54g/+Mp4vbDW+7Yu5AUuhvzCpgI87JEJ7NP81 MM96TbydPbLfP/CZgMxtnX8u4fNsurF2ag6c97YXQMDG5nCLIGJqkS8a2k6mPpG9 irdt/h6FVTvDKdClAfewHDurc2Wx0cV5t5JYuJCFs85wZA80A9r+wjjsErkfpCHT NKgolXKrQjeenXOG+OQVHhFpEDYz8GF6RN1gLz7hYtdfkXqo10s0/HF2yaOEcvsy +jyimTGbLYgyfmeuqaqTOrRzoBlObEwZHpUlCm/x3/O0rN1vYJe/OIMYamElLMwm 1AOekQ1vSGh+nH9ZxRax8O1BXh28gTy/BUdOxxXLadrFmWkkKeZ7YZqTVTKmeMva Wab5gF5bGptBdHid8HllWStMKNiFfolo8nC2Ix4rQYBCEZaoKfnuE/aUxCgGRe/t 6DExSfjBkC5BsArFfdUbq8y+2dsXS/zlg3uuW0ZrENLjO0/Gn9JZIX+Gn+bYrGHX CUgW6quh1rc9rixuNkhDcLwiNH5T5gMVMlL/W7Vn/FFX1Kvh2yNb1PrDGDvPI/UU 3bsdp8zF06lCgCCm7EIOfPCaRhEkX9JxbukixTFIG9by7QAKzXFggtf+Xu5O6L50 QKwVjsPauXqqyXjSqxzpJDfdseU+byUYS5me750KM4j3BFBrk4QBoYVT0bja3MoW U/QxKNwjfvM= =ipKz -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Why do some ISP's have bandwidth quotas?
by odlyzko＠dtc.umn.edu 10 Oct '07

10 Oct '07

As a point of information, Australia is one of the few places where the government collects Internet traffic statistics (which are hopefully trustworthy). Pointer is at http://www.dtc.umn.edu/mints/govstats.html (which also has a pointer to Hong Kong reports). If one looks at the Australian Bureau of Statistics report for the quarter ended March 2007, we find that the roughly 3.8 M residential broadband subscribers in Australia were downloading an average of 2.5 GB/month, or about 10 Kbps on average (vs. about 20x that in Hong Kong). While Australian Internet traffic had been growing very vigorously over the last few years (as shown by the earlier reports from the same source), growth has slowed down substantially, quite likely in response to those quotas. Andrew Odlyzko P.S. The MINTS (Minnesota Internet Traffic Studies) project, http://www.dtc.umn.edu/mints provides pointers to a variety of sources of traffic statistics, as well as some analyses. Comments, and especially pointers to additional traffic reports, are eagerly solicited. > On Fri Oct 5, Mark Newton wrote: On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 01:12:35PM -0400, andrew2(a)one.net wrote: > As you say, 90GB is roughly .25Mbps on average. Of course, like you pointed > out, the users actual bandwidth patterns are most likely not a straight > line. 95%ile on that 90GB could be considerably higher. But let's take a > conservative estimate and say that user uses .5Mbps 95%ile. And lets say > this is a relatively large ISP paying $12/Mb. That user then costs that ISP > $6/month in bandwidth. (I know, that's somewhat faulty logic, but how else > is the ISP going to establish a cost basis?) If that user is only paying > say $19.99/month for their connection, that leaves only $13.99 a month to > pay for all the infrastructure to support that user, along with personnel, > etc all while still trying to turn a profit. In the Australian ISP's case (which is what started this) it's rather worse. The local telco monopoly bills between $30 and $50 per month for access to the copper tail. So there's essentially no such thing as a $19.99/month connection here (except for short-lived "flash-in-the-pan" loss-leaders, and we all know how they turn out) So to run the numbers: A customer who averages .25Mbit/sec on a tail acquired from the incumbent requires -- Port/line rental from the telco ~ $50 IP transit ~ $ 6 (your number) Transpacific backhaul ~ $50 (I'm not making this up) So we're over a hundred bucks already, and haven't yet factored in the overheads for infrastructure, personnel, profit, etc. And those numbers are before sales tax too, so add at least 10% to all of them before arriving at a retail price. Due to the presence of a quota, our customers don't tend to average .25 Mbit/sec over the course of a month (we prefer to send the ones that do to our competitors :-). If someone buys access to, say, 30 Gbytes of downloads per month, a few significant things happen: - The customer has a clear understanding of what they've paid for, which doesn't encompass "unlimited access to the Internet." That tends to moderate their usage; - Because they know they're buying something finite, they tend to pick a package that suits their expected usage, so customers who intend to use more end up paying more money; - The customer creates their own backpressure against hitting their quota: Once they've gone past it they're usually rate-limited to 64kbps, which is not a nice experience, so by and large they build in a "safety margin" and rarely use more than 75% of the quota. About 5% of our customers blow their quota in any given month; - The ones who do hit their quota and don't like 64kbps shaping get to pay us more money to have their quota expanded for the rest of the month, thereby financing the capacity upgrades that their cumulative load can/will require; - The entire Australian marketplace is conditioned to expect that kind of behaviour from ISPs, and doesn't consider it to be unusual. If you guys in North America tried to run like this, you'd be destroyed in the marketplace because you've created a customer base that expects to be able to download the entire Internet and burn it to DVD every month. :-) So you end up looking at options like DPI and QoS controls at your CMTS head-end to moderate usage, because you can't keep adding infinite amounts of bandwidth to support unconstrained end-users when they're only paying you $20 per month. (note that our truth-in-advertising regulator doesn't allow us to get away with saying "Unlimited" unless there really are no limits -- no quotas, no traffic shaping, no traffic management, no QoS controls. Unlimited means unlimited by the dictionary definition, not by some weasel definition that the industry has invented to suit its own purposes) - There is no net neutrality debate to speak of in .au because everyone is _already_ paying their way. Like I said a few messages ago, as much as your marketplace derides caps and quotas, I'm pretty sure that most of you would prefer to do business with my constraints than with yours. - mark -- Mark Newton Email: newton(a)internode.com.au (W) Network Engineer Email: newton(a)atdot.dotat.org (H) Internode Systems Pty Ltd Desk: +61-8-82282999 "Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223

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Re: How Not to Multihome
by Scott Weeks 10 Oct '07

10 Oct '07

--- Keegan.Holley(a)sungard.com wrote: I have a client that wants us to advertise an IP block assigned by another ISP. I know that the best practice is to have them request an AS number from ARIN and peer with us, etc. However, I cannot find any information that states as law. Does anyone know of a document or RFC that states this? ---------------------------------------- There is no law. ;) Also, you can advertise the other provider's block given to your prospective customer as long as you work with that provider on how to do it. However, if it's less than a /24 it won't get very far as most upstreams block prefixes longer than a /24. scott

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