April 2004 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Re: Lazy network operators - NOT
by Paul Vixie 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

> >there's no choice at all, really. > > Are you suggesting to drop all traffic (which, if widespread would get > attention) or just email? at the moment i'm proposing just e-mail. but that's only because we should already be rejecting udp/137 and udp/138 and udp/139 from outside our campuses and there's no reason to selectively reject that stuff from "broadband" nets. in the future we may find ourselves rejecting all non-"pull" transactions of whatever protocol. these are fundamentally access networks, and statistically speaking, "everything" that's been done with service or p2p from a "broadband" network has been bad for somebody, somewhere. > If youŽre suggesting only email blocking, you'll promote email-peering > agreement, eventually with settlement, architechture. actually i'm not suggesting it, i'm letting you all know that it's coming; and, i'm not promoting settlements, but rather whitelists.

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Automated Copyright Notice System
by Sean Donelan 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

Someone coming up with tools to solve Paul's problems. Anyone can send an XML formated notice to an ISP, and the user's Internet access is automatically restricted. Spoofing? Btw, the music industry has applied for a patent on the technique. Prior art anyone? http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5194341.html Known as the Automated Copyright Notice System (ACNS), the technology promises to ease copyright enforcement on peer-to-peer networks, saving schools and Internet service providers (ISPs) time and money. It would allow them to restrict or cut off Internet access for alleged infringers automatically on notice from a record label or movie studio. For example, universities using ACNS could instantly send notices of copyright infringement to students by e-mail and restrict their network access until they have removed the file. [...] "We're helping the ISP or university with policy enforcement, we're not dictating the policy but we're saying here's a tool to help with automating the process. We're the friends of the ISP," said Mark Ishikawa, chief executive officer of BayTSP, a Los Gatos, Calif.-based company that is using the system on behalf of copyright holders.

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Re: Lazy network operators - NOT
by Paul Vixie 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

> Be careful about the slice and dice effect. Depending on how you divide > up the numbers you can make any thing come out on top. In some sense > the problem is a lot worse. Its not just spam, worms, viruses. Its not > just residential broadband users. Its not even just Microsoft Windows. while i agree, i think something i said earlier needs to get re-said: >> So-called "broadband" user populations (cable, dsl, fixed wireless, >> mobile wireless) are full time connected, or nearly so. They are >> technically unsophisticated, on average. The platforms they run >> trade convenience for security, and must do so in order to remain >> competitive/relevant. Margin pressure makes it impossible for most >> "broadband" service providers to even catalogue known-defect customer >> systems or process complaints about them. >> >> Those facts are not in dispute. [...] so, we know that a "broadband customer netblock" operator will not handle complaints, will not fix the systems that are known to be running third-hand malware, and that the only recourse against abuse from those places is blackholing them one (ipv4) /32 at a time, or blackholing them all at once and forcing mail servers (whether legit or not) to operate from a higher-rent neighborhood. there's no choice at all, really.

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RE: why use IPv6, was: Lazy network operators
by Michel Py 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

> Patrick W.Gilmore wrote: > The point still stands - without real multi-homing > so I do not have to be dependent upon a single > vendor, IPv6 is simply not an option. > Quick Meta-Question: Why was was this even > considered when v6 was being engineered? Yes, although the magnitude of the problem has been way underestimated. Most people did not understand that it had to be built and validated both in the core of the protocol and in policies; collectively they promised to fix the problem "next year" and never delivered. Same as easy renumbering, WRT to multihoming IPv6 has run on vaporware for years. > Are the people who started the v6 movement > really that out-of-touch with reality? Some are, and some are not. Generally speaking, too many people had little experience with network operations, some had experience with little relevance to the real world with sheltered networks such as research. This is a generic structural issue though, same as hunger in the world and spam: no silver bullet. Retrospectively speaking, I'm not even sure less people out-of-touch with reality in the initial phases would have changed much. > Or were they arrogant enough to believe they > could limit control to a few entities and the > user base would just go along with it? To a large extent, no. Although it is true that a few people from large operators did see early on the advantages of "lock-in" addressing, the fact of the matter is that a small routing table had the favors of lots of people. 10 years ago, the big picture of the Internet was quite different than it is today and the renumbering issues were not nearly as complex as they are today. Michel.

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SANOG IV, Kathmandu, Nepal, 23-30 July 2004
by Joe Abley 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

[forwarded on behalf of the organisers] --- SANOG IV 23-30 July, 2004 Kathmandu, Nepal SANOG IV Program and Registration Announcement South Asian Network Operators Group (SANOG) IV program and agenda are now published on http://www.sanog.org/sanog4/. The registration has also now been opened. SANOG IV is being held at the Radisson Hotel in Kathmandu, Nepal from 23-30 July, 2004. You can refer to www.sanog.org for details. Program and Agenda: SANOG IV program incorporates the following Three hands-on workshops: 23-27 July, 2004 - Open Source IP Services for ISP, by NSRC - ISP Routing Workshop, by Cisco - DNS / DNSSec Workshop, by APNIC Eight Tutorials 28-29 July, 2004 - Anti-SPAM tutorial - Juniper Routing Workshop - VOIP technology and SIP Deployment - Internet Routing Registry Tutorial - Internet Exchange Point - Exim Mail Server - PGP mini Tutorial - APNIC Internet Resource Management Four Birds-of-a-Feather : 28-20 July, 2004 - Internet Exchange Point - ISP/NSP Security - West Asia BoF - PGP Key-Signing Party Full Day Conference Program : 30 July, 2004 - Regional Updates - Routing Practices - Application Deployment - Security Additional Programs: (28-30 July, 2004) - APCAUCE tutorials and meeting - APNIC Regional policy update - APNIC and RIPE NCC hostmaster Consultation - Regional Telecom/Internet Policy Session We expect a huge turn out from the region at this SANOG meeting owing to the popularity at previous meets. We also welcome participants from West Asia, with the newly established collaboration with the RIPE NCC. With the co-hosting of APCAUCE meeting, we also expect a larger participation from the entire Asia Pacific region. We hope you would be able to make it to this meeting. The meeting is open to everyone from the operational community, and thus anyone who needed a reason to visit Kathmandu now has one. You can register for SANOG by sending in the form available at www.sanog.org/sanog4. Online registration will open in May.

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RE: Microsoft XP SP2 (was Re: Lazy network operators - NOT)
by Michel Py 18 Apr '04

18 Apr '04

> Sean Donelan > Should ISPs start requiring their users to install Windows XP SP2? Most of those of us that work with m$ products on a daily basis are not too hot about installing beta code in production. A week after m$ releases it, and after carefully listening to the volume of screams coming from the street, we shall see. Michel.

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RE: why use IPv6, was: Lazy network operators
by Michel Py 18 Apr '04

18 Apr '04

> william(at)elan.net wrote: > Like what? 128bit ip addresses so we don't run out 10 years from now? Maybe. Given the current stockpiling plus the extension of IPv4 to 32 bits to 48 bits (32 bits+port) that shortage that we have heard for the last 10 years would happen any time soon might not even be an issue. > Or ability to do QoS PtP over internet? Nothing to do with IPv6. > Or security that is built in and not part of additional layer? What about security that we have heard for the last 10 years will be built-in and still is not, when we use IPSEC for IPv4 daily even across NAT? > we just need to put more effort on things like > multihoming support for ipv6 Kind of ironic this is addressed to _me_ > continuing ipv4 for next 100 years is not an option in my view Not in mine either but it's not an excuse to defend a failure. I know lots of people that could have done without the mandatory ISDN upgrade; as of myself I intend not to spend millions on IPv6 upgrades to get the same brilliant success ISDN had reaching each home and each office in America. Michel.

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flat ascii, please
by Paul Vixie 18 Apr '04

18 Apr '04

this gibberish... >Spamming is pervasive mainly due to the inattention or failure to enforc= e=0D >acceptable use policies by the service provider. =0D =0D ...is unreadable, and so is... <DIV>>Spamming is pervasive mainly due to the inattention or failure t= o enforce</DIV> <DIV>>acceptable use policies by the service provider.  </DI= V></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> ...this. if you're on this mailing list, please configure your user interface to output 79-column ascii card images, with no =foo or html. if or when nanog@ moves to a different format, it'll likely be jabber rather than html or richtext. -- Paul Vixie

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Re: Lazy network operators - NOT
by Dr. Jeffrey Race 18 Apr '04

18 Apr '04

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:01:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time), Jerry Eyers wrote: >>Spamming is pervasive mainly due to the inattention or failure to enforce > >>acceptable use policies by the service provider. > >I must point out that this statement is just flat wrong. It's flat right. See documentation at <http://www.camblab.com/nugget/spam_03.pdf>

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Re: Lazy network operators - NOT
by Dr. Jeffrey Race 18 Apr '04

18 Apr '04

On 18 Apr 2004 06:13:35 +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: >The new motto here is: "Blackhole 'em all and let market forces sort 'em out." Hooray. May Comcast rot in hell. They are completely irresponsible. Don't even send an auto-ignore message. Jeffrey Race

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