May 2002 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Re: PAIX (was Re: Interconnects)
by Paul Vixie 23 May '02

23 May '02

> > I welcome any further questions about PAIX's health or future. [...] > > Why no optional MLPA like AADS? [...] we had one at first. after a few years of approximately no signatories, we stopped trying. my own experience is that bilaterals are more useful for engineering purposes and that multilaterals are kind of swampy. but if there's interest, we'll find the old paperwork and shuffle it anew. -- Paul Vixie <vixie(a)eng.paix.net> President, PAIX.Net Inc. (NASD:MFNXE)

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Re: Certification or College degrees?
by Joe 23 May '02

23 May '02

After reading this thread I had to include my thoughts regarding this. Certifications/Degrees can be good, but they should not be regarded as a degree of skill. If employers only wish to look at those items (Certs/Degrees) then it becomes yet another political agenda and further delays the success of a company's goal or target. This of course is not the case for all Certifided folks but none the less. I'll never forget the day (years ago) I walked into work and saw a MCSE with a look like a deer stuck in the headlights of a tractor trailor about to be hit. Yes, a a Cert did a great job there as hundreds of people couldn't access email of months and months, while the fix for this was to call MS support and wait on hold only to be told that the backup of the email was corrupt. Unconventional methods of a non-certifided were able to recover the lost data. Not to generalize here, but most of the Certified folks I have worked with are what we consider "paper tigers". If its not in the text book then your in trouble. I'll agree that a Degree will help perhaps in the finer items for the overall picture of a network but I'll not say it makes one a network engineer or expert. The only thing I found useful with college was that it helped when explaining what I do or plan to do to management. Well, you just have to love those job postings that say "CCIE + MCSE + CCNE + A++ preferred" and note to sell or not buy that stock. just my 2¢s -Joe (No certs)

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Re: Certification or College degrees?
by Jeffrey Meltzer 23 May '02

23 May '02

On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 09:35:22PM -0500, Blake Fithen wrote: > Usually what you say is helpful. I have to disagree with > you here though. A few things I learned in a CIS degree program > which apply to networking: Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, there are schools which have Networking programs..For instance, New York Institute of Technology has an AAS in Telecommunications Technology and a BS in Telecommunications Management. Classes include multiple Voice & Data classes, as well as Wireless Networking, Traffic Management, Network Management, LAN/WAN/MAN, Telecom Law/Policy, as well as a slew of Electronics and CompSci classes... All very useful for foundations, and pretty interesting...At least I found it useful and worth the money... Jeff

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RE: Certification or College degrees?
by Blake Fithen 23 May '02

23 May '02

Replies inline.. > From: Bruce Pinsky [mailto:bep@whack.org] > Blake Fithen wrote: > >>Stephen Sprunk > >>Thus spake "Nigel Clarke" <nigel(a)forever-networks.com> > >> > >>If you're looking to write software, sure. A CompSci degree > >>won't help you > >>in the slightest at operating networks. > > > > Usually what you say is helpful. I have to disagree with > > you here though. A few things I learned in a CIS degree program > > which apply to networking: > > > > bits/bytes/megabytes [deletia] > In the end, however, being inquisitive, resourceful, and > self-motivated, far > outweigh "book knowledge". It's not about knowing the > answers but rather > knowing where to go to get the answers. You may learn that I agree. I just wanted to attempt to negate Sprunk's statement above. > bep -- blake

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Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
by Bram Dov Abramson 23 May '02

23 May '02

zerocool(a)netpath.net: >Valdis is from VT, so I hope he's listening. Why >couldn't we as a networking community sit down and come up with a degree >program that goes from BS to PhD? Sure it can touch on basic programming >and basic processor design, but it would be more heavily weighted towards >utilizing technologies on the market and creating solutions to the common >programs. It could be a mix between the CCIE, Net+, etc. Because I know >my Comp Engineering program doesn't touch on anything related at all to >networking, and never even mentions the idea of security. So why not >create a focused area for this? cf Internet Engineering Curriculum Repository http://www.caida.org/outreach/iec/ MEng Internetworking http://www.dal.ca/~eine/index.html cheers Bram

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list problems?
by Ralph Doncaster 22 May '02

22 May '02

Do the merit servers have a habit of dropping some messages? I sent a message this morning that never made it to the list: May 22 08:41:03 cpu1693 postfix/qmgr[9876]: 6AC4D17030: from=<ralph(a)istop.com>,size=1108, nrcpt=1 (queue active) May 22 08:41:04 cpu1693 postfix/smtp[5066]: 6AC4D17030: to=<nanog(a)merit.edu>, relay=mail.merit.edu[198.108.1.41], delay=1, status=sent (250 Ok: queued as 653EA5DD9A) Ralph Doncaster principal, IStop.com div. of Doncaster Consulting Inc.

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Re: Certification or College degrees?
by K. Graham 22 May '02

22 May '02

To start, I know a lot of people with no certifications, degrees or diplomas that can dance circles around their desired loves of networking or unix administration. They live, work and earn every penny they receive. I hold them in high esteem and thank them constantly for help they give to me. They do not need to take the tests to know about things or be known for things they have done. Living in a profession that has a large majority of male counterparts, being a female has been a bit tough. Having those pieces of paper has helped me to open a few doors. Once those doors are opened technical questions, a bit of experience and the ability to smile and laugh have kept those doors opened. The papers have helped to introduce myself, show that I may actually have the basics. Without them I am not sure I would be where I am now. Getting them were more of yearning for learning than a "look I have this" statement. My current manager smiled when I asked him not to tell my counter parts what I have. Certs/Degrees/Diplomas sometimes cause tension between staff that have them and staff that do not have them until everyone gets to know the person, and how they work. To me experience means a lot more. You may think this is strange but the more "bugs" I find the more I smile for it gives me a great opportunity to learn. To learn something that is not in the books, where it takes a feel for the device to fix it. Though the heart does pump a bit faster in these situations due to it being a production device and not a lab device. Earn the Certs, Diplomas, Degrees for yourself and not the position. The position is the partical application of what you like to do. A good HR person looks at your personality to make sure you fit the team, if you can answer the technical questions you do not need always need the paper. Kim Oh.. I should add. My first Cert was out written out of spite. A male co-worker seemed high and mighty when he passed. So I wrote it to keep him quiet. I must thank him one day. :)

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Re: Certification or College degrees?
by Nigel Clarke 22 May '02

22 May '02

If I have learned anything at all during the course of this recession is that you have to be diverse. Organizations are looking for individuals with a wide range of skills. This includes CCIE's. I know a few who aren't working right now. It's not due to there lack of skill or knowledge, it's there limited skill set. The story of the Cisco CCIE's will be the same as the IBM/SNA mainframe gurus. Great in their day, useless in the future. --- Nigel Clarke Network Security Engineer nigel(a)forever-networks.com

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education == ??
by J.D. Falk 22 May '02

22 May '02

I think the real meaning in this thread might simply be that some people are extremely argumentative, no matter how much education they've received. Can we move on now? -- J.D. Falk "...eternity is defined by impatience." <jdfalk(a)cybernothing.org> -- Laura Kasischke

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RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
by Randy Neals 22 May '02

22 May '02

Kristian P. Jackson, might have said: >Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? Masters Degree in Internetworking http://www.dal.ca/~eine/ -Randy

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