September 2001 - Test - lists.nanog.org

The people who kept communications working
by Sean Donelan 16 Sep '01

16 Sep '01

The Washington Post has a story about just a few of the people who worked throughout last week keeping communication lines open, and keeping the equipment which we all depend on working. http://www.washtech.com/news/software/12504-1.html "For two hours, the 49-year-old New York native lay flat on his back on the rooftop of a 32-story building five blocks from the World Trade Center, brushing down gray soot caked onto 18 air-conditioning coils crucial to cooling computers that run various corporate Web sites."

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Re: Re[2]: telehouse - 25 broadway
by Sean Donelan 16 Sep '01

16 Sep '01

On Sun, 16 September 2001, kevin pop account wrote: > Before someone asks we have a very steady national > supply over here so running the gens is purely > a commerical aim.I would have thought that even > stateside this would make sense no ? The US has fairly strict air quality control laws. It is relatively expensive to operate a desiel generator more than 100-200 hours a year in a major urban area due to the permits and environmental pollution control requirements. In most cases, it is less expensive to use utility power in the USA, and generators only for backup. With the California power situation, several people have done a lot of research on the trade-offs between utility and backup power. The result is, except for disasters, most backup generators are not regularly operated for extended periods. Before their budget was cut, the Department of Energy had a great Backup Power Working Group. You can read the results of their work at http://www.dp.doe.gov/CTG/bpwg/bpwg.htm You should remember that generators are mechanical devices. Wear and tear during extended run-times *WILL* result in breakdowns. The longer your operate the generators, the more failures you will experience. Its always a trade-off between how long you test mechanical equipment. Based on DOE studies, many people actually over-test their backup generators. Standard Bell telephone CO design doesn't assume extended disasters. Some colocation facility designers have designed their generator plants differently than normal Bell practice. But even colocation facility operations need to set some limits to their design conditions. Locations with power problems 25 Broadway 32 Old Slip ATT Local Service (WTC basement) Sprint/Sprint PCS (location unknown) Locations destroyed Verizon/Genuity WTC Until I know what happened, and read the final report, I can't say if any particular design could have performed any better.

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FW: Photos of Palestinians celebrating World Trade Center attack
by Greg Mirsky 16 Sep '01

16 Sep '01

----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Jacob <mailto:jeffj@mysticom.com> To: Jeff Jacob <mailto:jeffj@mysticom.com> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:37 AM Subject: Photos of Palestinians celebrating World Trade Center attack Notice that many of the Palestinians hold up their fingers in a gesture of peace. Is this the kind of cruel "peace" that they are advocating? Palestinians celebrate at the Shatila camp in Beirut <http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/images/_1538271_clap_afp_300.jpg> Many Palestinians at refugee camps in Lebanon celebrated after hearing news of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon Children celebrate in east Jerusalem <http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/images/_1538271_kids_ap_300.jpg> Palestinian children in eastern Jerusalem celebrating news of the terror attacks in the United States Lebanon <http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/images/_1538861_1celebs300.jpg> Palestinians in Lebanon celebrating the attacks Guns fired at refugee camp in Lebanon <http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1540000/images/_1540102_gun150.jpg> Palestinian man fires a rifle in the air in celebration over the World Trade Center collapse reaction <http://a388.g.akamai.net/f/388/21/1d/www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/mi deast.reaction/story.children.ap.jpg> Palestinian children near eastern Jerusalem's Old City as news of the attacks spread

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Re: Now:Power/Generators (Was: Re[2]: telehouse - 25 broadway)
by Sean Donelan 16 Sep '01

16 Sep '01

As I keep saying, I don't have the full story about what has happened and need to wait until the final report is completed before predicting whether any alternative design would have performed better. In addition to electric service, gas service and steam service in lower Manhattan has been disrupted. Turbines relying on natural gas could have also been disrupted. I don't know if the level of dust and debris would have also impacted a turbine's ability to generate power. I have a hard time believing an airfilter would not need to be changed for a year operating in those conditions. Full disclosure: I design high-end colocation facilities for a living. Without knowing the full story, I can't say any design would have performed better. But I can say, the people trying to keep things running are doing an exceptional job under unforseen circumstances. On Sun, 16 September 2001, Robert Boyle wrote: > In our new datacenter in Newton, NJ, we are in the process of getting RFPs > to install Capstone micro turbines for backup power. They are DESIGNED to > run for 8,000 hours before the first maintenance is needed. At 333 days (8k > hours) an airfilter should be changed. They can run for 60 months 24/7 > before a rebuild is needed. They need a tuneup kit at 24 and 48 months > (assuming 24/7 service) at a cost of $2700 per service. They are impressive > units, but... 1. They give off extreme amounts of heat (which can be used > to heat your building), 2. they rely on natural or LP gas. 3. they are VERY > expensive compared to diesel gensets - 2-4 times as much per Kw! A 60kW > unit costs $69,775 A 28kW unit is $45,582. They can be ganged together to > provide N+1 redundancy and load sharing. > > http://www.capstoneturbine.com > > > I have no financial interest in the company, but they seem to be the only > game in town with a unit with EXTREME runtimes. Does anyone else use these > at their datacenter(s)?

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Assistance (mildly OT)
by Jonathan Disher 16 Sep '01

16 Sep '01

I know it's been posted repeatedly, but I would also like to lend any assistance possible, as far as remote-configs of devices or unix servers, or DNS and/or temporary MX hosting. Our facilities are located in an Exodus datacenter in Sunnyvale, CA. If someone could (offlist) forward me the link of the on-line repository of people offering help, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. -j -- -Jonathan Disher -Sr. Systems and Network Engineer -Internet Pictures Corporation, San Ramon, CA -[v] (650) 280-4833 | [p] (877) 446-9311 | [e] jdisher(a)eng.ipix.com

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Please can we avoid any more OT posts?
by Joseph T. Klein 16 Sep '01

16 Sep '01

The events over the last week create a multitude of very emotional responses. The contributing factors, the discussions on security vs. liberty, the discussion about America's role as a world oppressor or world savior ... we could spend all of our time and energy on this. This is not the proper forum. -- Joseph T. Klein +1 414 915 7489 Senior Network Engineer jtk(a)titania.net Adelphia Business Solutions joseph.klein(a)adelphiacom.com "... the true value of the Internet is its connectedness ..." -- John W. Stewart III

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Re: Re[2]: telehouse - 25 broadway
by David Lesher 16 Sep '01

16 Sep '01

Unnamed Administration sources reported that Leo Bicknell said: > > > > I think "limited" here is a bit misleading. Most of these engines > are continuous duity rated, which means within the bounds of > maintenance items (oil changes, gasket changes, and other routine > maintenance) they can run non-stop. Most gensets are essentially > the same components that power diesel-electric locomotives that > routinely run for weeks at a time without shutdown. They may be continuous duty rated, but in this application? I.e. - the ones I have worked on (to limited extents; change filters, oil, repair FUBARs in the control systems design [1] had two rating: N kw continuous duty; {say} 1.4N intermittent. Intermittent may well be 24H or less; I bet the 1.4 is a f(run time/week) or such. > Here in ice storm country every few years power is out for 3-4 days > in some areas after bad storms. Generators routinely run for 3-4 > days and cause no concern over their condition, other than to move > up routine maintenance due to the additional run time. > I suspect dust is going to be the largest problem for all generators > in the area. It will reduce radiator effectiveness, wear on external > parts (fans and the like), clog air and oil cleaners. Again, these > devices are made for some fairly harsh environments so 48 hours is > no concern, I would think expecting 2 weeks of reliable power if > they are attended to even in these conditions is reasonable. This is just as much a case of matching equipment to application as is buying a new backbone router. Do you buy based on a "100 year flood" peak; the "Mothers Day calling" peak or the "105% of >1hr" model. Justify your decision the the beancounter. 25 points. I do not know what all the Ma specs [Sean: is this p/o the FCC regs, NEBS, or ??] call for, but I'd guess 2-3 days tops. [1] Engines are big noisy devices. When you use high impedance input logic (from slow crude mechanical sensors such as oil pressure and water temp switches) that responds in a few microseconds, and have no filtering debounce on them; duh, you get lots of false alarms. Slow things down to a 500ms time constant, and they work far better. Filter the power supply {Hello! The generator just started -- yep, the line WILL spike...} well as well, and hey, it does work after all. I hope other folks did better design work than those guys. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz(a)nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

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Interactive map of WTC area
by Hank Nussbacher 16 Sep '01

16 Sep '01

http://www.wired.com/news/reuters/photos/images/nys14_2pm_reuters.swf -Hank

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[OT] What is brewing
by Hank Nussbacher 16 Sep '01

16 Sep '01

http://www.debka.com/ Bin Laden's Scattered Legions The news you won't find in CNN. In general, 80% of what they write is true mixed with wishful thinking. You need to know how to read the facts and ignore the analysis. -Hank

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[Fwd: Great article about afghanistan/taliban/bin laden]
by Imran Qureshi 16 Sep '01

16 Sep '01

One of our colleague posted the following article and it really shows the plight of the real afghans. Regards, Imran > > > Dear Friends, > > > The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is > >an Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people > >I know in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen. > >Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in. > > > -Gary T. > > > > > > > > > Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread: > > > > > > I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to > >the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this > >would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with > >this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. > >What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing > >whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." > > And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because > >I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've > >never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who > >will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing. > >I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no > >doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity > >in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. > >But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even > >the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant > >psychotics > >who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal > >with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin > >Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think > >"the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan > >people had nothing to do with this atrocity. > >They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if > >someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats > >nest of international thugs holed up in their country. > > Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The > >answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. > >A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 > >disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. > > > There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these > >widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the > >farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons > >why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. > > >We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone > >Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. > >Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? > >Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their > >hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from >medicine > >and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. > > > > > New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at > >least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the >Taliban > >eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. > >Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't > >move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul > >and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals > >who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common > >cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been > >raping all this time > > > So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with > >true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there > >with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what > >needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill > >as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about > >killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's > >actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some > >Americans > >would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. > > It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to > >Afghanistan, > >we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they > >let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. > >Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're > >flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. > > And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he >wants. > >That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right > >there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem > >ridiculous, > >but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, > >he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those > >lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even > >better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end > >the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last > >for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the > >belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else? > > > > > Tamim Ansary > > > >

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