May 2001 - Test - lists.nanog.org

2 Wire T1 - HDLC
by wb8foz＠nrk.com 15 May '01

15 May '01

Of course, this whole flame-fest is pointless. T-1 can't be 2-wire. T-1 is a facility. Circa 1962, it *carries* DS-1 format bits, over 2 pairs, with repeaters every 6Kft (except the first is 3Kft from the CO..). {Gee, the exact spacing of 88mH load coils....must be coincidence..} You can get those DS-1 bits (that's what really you want...) delivered over: T-1, HDSL, as part of something bigger, <RFC-1149>, whatever. And 95% of the time, you likely don't care....as long as the bits arrive. Just like the guy downstream does not care if you have a cisco 9000 or a HAL 9000, as long as his service stays up. Can we go back to worrying about things that SHOULD scare all of us, such as MPAA, COPA, RIAA, and CALEA; rather than worrying about the ghostly remains of RabbitNet? -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz(a)nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

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RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
by Roeland Meyer 15 May '01

15 May '01

> From: Vivien M. [mailto:vivienm@dyndns.org] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 2:44 PM > As someone posted before (but you probably didn't read): Actually, I read it just fine. Yes, that is the block that is in use here. I just don't know who the hell Alex Black is. I also asked SpeakEasy. Weeks later, I'm still waiting for an answer. > vivienm@amethyst:~$ host www.mhsc.com > www.mhsc.com is a nickname for vweb1.mhsc.com > vweb1.mhsc.com has address 216.27.184.250 > vivienm@amethyst:~$ whois -a 216.27.184.250 When did '-a' become a whois option? > Speakeasy Network (NETBLK-SPEAKEASY-4) SPEAKEASY-4 > 216.27.128.0 - > 216.27.191.255 > Black, Alex (NETBLK-SPEK-RMEYER-0) SPEK-RMEYER-0 > 216.27.184.224 - > 216.27.184.255 > vivienm@amethyst:~$ whois -a \!NETBLK-SPEK-RMEYER-0 > Black, Alex (NETBLK-SPEK-RMEYER-0) > 440 Mission Court > Fremont, CA 94539 > US > > Netname: SPEK-RMEYER-0 > Netblock: 216.27.184.224 - 216.27.184.255 > > Coordinator: > Stollar, Andreas (AS3414-ARIN) abuse(a)speakeasy.net > +1-206-728-9770 (FAX) (206)728-1500 > Now, I realize your name isn't Alex Black (unless you have multiple > personalities), but it sure looks to me like SpeakEasy knows > how to SWIP > (and the SPEK-RMEYER-0 name suggests they were trying to SWIP > it to you). Among other things, I'm also a SysAdmin. Of course, I have multiple personalities! But, Alex Black isn't one of them. Also note, Andreas Stoller's email addr. Do you actually think I would get any sort of response if I sent an email there? I might as well send it to abuse(a)mhsc.net. He probably uses the same bit-bucket that mhsc.net does (the /dev/null brand).

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How many routed hops would be considered too many to leave an AS
by Thomas Gainer 15 May '01

15 May '01

Kind of a newbie questions, but I would like to know what the consensus is. Thanks, Thomas Gainer

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Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support their Business, and whine about it. RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND
by Gerry 15 May '01

15 May '01

At 16:44 5/14/2001, bmanning(a)vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > Two of the most novel and low-cost colo sites that have been > announced to this list are: > > ) the un-heated, no existing electrical, mind the hay, cows, > and various other flora & fauna - Barn in northern Utah. > > ) the trunk of a Buick RoadMaster (supports wireless mobil > access and its own power generator!) > >and then there was the call to revamp MIR, before its untimly demise. >as with your bandwidth selections, your colo milage will vary. > >--bill Lets not forget the parking lot outside the Apple conference room that has unencrypted access to 802.11b for free... Towing and long-term power may be a problem, but for short term access..... Gerry

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RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
by Roeland Meyer 14 May '01

14 May '01

Look in the O'Reilly "DNS and BIND" book, 3rd ed., page 217. Also, RFC2317. However, I have not yet found a single upstream that even knows how to do it, let alone offers this as a service. They are also not happy that I won't sign control of my domains over to them and that I run my own zone servers. Gee, why don't I hand over my bank accounts while I'm at it? BTW, if you know an ISP that does, I want their contact number. I'm not trying to win any arguments here. If I lose then I win, because I will have found a decent vendor. Also, with my monthly recurring cash on the line, don't you think I've been looking? Also, SpeakEasy seems to not have heard about SWiP. > -----Original Message----- > From: Curtis Maurand [mailto:curtis@lamere.net] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:48 AM > > I don't remember being able to delegate anything less than a /24 for > reverse purposes. Correct me if I'm wrong. You can't swip > less than a > /24, but you can assign it. > On Mon, 14 May 2001, John Murphy wrote: > > > <quote> > > Roeland Meyer, "None of the DSL ISPs can do larger than /27 > anymore, even > > when they're ILECs. Anything less than a /24 can't be SWIP'd..." > > </quote> > > > > I really couldn't care less about SpeakEasy. I just didn't > feel like > > watching yet another of your blatantly inaccurate blanket > statements slide > > by. Case in point, *both* of those statements above are inaccurate. > > > > -----------------------Original Message----------------------- > > >From: Roeland Meyer > > >To: John Murphy;nanog(a)nanog.org > > >Date: 5/14/01 5:06 AM > > >Subject: RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF > YOUR CUSTOMERS > > > > > >> From: John Murphy [mailto:nanog@mail.murfnet.com] > > >> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 8:07 PM > > >> > > >> I'm sorry Roeland, but your statement about SWIP'ing anything > > >> less than a > > >> /24 is just inaccurate. We SWIP /29s and /30s daily, for > > >> both our Frame > > >> and our DSL customers. > > > > > >Tell it to SpeakEasy. > > > > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Curtis Maurand System Administrator > lamere.net Powered by Prexar http://www.lamere.net > mailto:curtis@lamere.net Linux, OS/2, Windows (any flavor) > http://www.prexar.com Cisco, OpenRoute, Lucent > MySQL, SQL Server, PHP, Perl > ------------------------------------------------------------ >

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Next-hop Reachability on ATM NAPs
by Reid Knuttila 14 May '01

14 May '01

NANOG members, I have a question to the group regarding how best to avoid blackholing routes to peers on an ATM NAP when using route servers. There is a case wherein my peering partner and I both have active PVCs to the route servers, but the PVC between my peering partner and my router is down. Thus, we both see routes from the route server with each other's IP as next-hop, but since our direct PVC is down that next-hop is no good. It'd like a way to automatically and efficiently detect loss of next-hop and discard routes accordingly. Are folks generally using OAM keepalives, and if so, any parameters for OAM interval time and dead/alive count that seem practical? Thanks, -- Reid Knuttila Network Engineer Onvoy

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RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
by Roeland Meyer 14 May '01

14 May '01

> From: Dominic J. Eidson [mailto:sauron@the-infinite.org] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 7:09 AM > > On Mon, 14 May 2001, Roeland Meyer wrote: > > > Agreed, but some code requires it. Which was my point. I'm > talking smaller > > vendors, like Oracle. BTW, how do I fake in-addr.arpa > responses for NAT'd > > space? My Oracle 8i server keeps checking the reverse addr > every time I try > > to create a DB. It's really annoying. Funny thing, my DB2 > servers do the > > same thing ... > > I find it funny that PostgreSQL - while being used as replacement for > Oracle by more and more people - does _not_ have this > problem... I didn't > even have a NIC in the server when I installed it... > > (And yes, PostgreSQL does have ACL's - but the ACL list is checked at > connection time - not everytime you execute a DML statement.) Are you seriously suggesting using PostgreSQL over Oracle, in production? Mind you, I do pgsql too. But, not in high-volume production.

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Next-hop Reachability on ATM NAPs
by Reid Knuttila 14 May '01

14 May '01

NANOG members, I have a question to the group regarding how best to avoid blackholing routes to peers on an ATM NAP when using route servers. There is a case wherein my peering partner and I both have active PVCs to the route servers, but the PVC between my peering partner and my router is down. Thus, we both see routes from the route server with each other's IP as next-hop, but since our direct PVC is down that next-hop is no good. It'd like a way to automatically and efficiently detect loss of next-hop and discard routes accordingly. Are folks generally using OAM keepalives, and if so, any parameters for OAM interval time and dead/alive count that seem practical? Thanks, -- Reid Knuttila Network Engineer Onvoy

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RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS
by John Murphy 14 May '01

14 May '01

I stand corrected. I checked with our service delivery department, who actually does our SWIPs these days, and they don't do anything larger than a /29 any more either, for the same reason that Hunter doesn't. My apologies for the flawed data. -----------------------Original Message----------------------- >From: Christopher A. Woodfield >To: Hunter Pine >Cc: John Murphy;Roeland Meyer;nanog(a)nanog.org >Date: 5/14/01 3:38 PM >Subject: Re: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS > >s/larger/smaller, you mean? > >I actually haven't SWIPped a /30 myself - I was referring to John Murphy's >statement implying that he has successfully. I have SWIPped /29's, >however. > >-C > >On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 04:36:11PM -0400, Hunter Pine wrote: >> ARIN returns my /30's and says I can't do netblocks larger than /29 so I >> stopped doing /30's. Are you paying them something on the side or just not >> reading all the replies from them? :) >> >> Hunter Pine >> Vice President, Network Operations >> hunter(a)compuhelp.com >> CompuHelp Technologies >> 11 Lispenard Street >> New York, NY 10013 >> 212-995-2955 x21 >> http://www.compuhelp.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Christopher A. Woodfield" <rekoil(a)semihuman.com> >> To: "John Murphy" <nanog(a)mail.murfnet.com> >> Cc: "Roeland Meyer" <rmeyer(a)mhsc.com>; <nanog(a)nanog.org> >> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 11:39 AM >> Subject: Re: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS >> >> >> > >> > Yes, ARIN won't _prevent_ you from SWIPping /29s and /30s, but ARIN >> _requires_ >> > you to SWIP any suballocation larger than a /28, and won't issue >> > additional blocks to you if your current blocks aren't properly SWIPped. >> > >> > -C >> > >> > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 10:07:26PM -0500, John Murphy wrote: >> > > >> > > I'm sorry Roeland, but your statement about SWIP'ing anything less than >> a >> > > /24 is just inaccurate. We SWIP /29s and /30s daily, for both our Frame >> > > and our DSL customers. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -----------------------Original Message----------------------- >> > > From: Roeland Meyer >> > > To: nanog(a)nanog.org >> > > Date: 5/13/01 4:21 PM >> > > Subject: RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR >> CUSTOMERS >> > > >> > > >> > > I've had similar problem at SpeakEasy. They still don't have a >> reverse-DNS >> > > clue. >> > > >> > > http://www.mhsc.com/recovery.htm >> > > >> > > None of the DSL ISPs can do larger than /27 anymore, even when they're >> > > ILECs. Anything less than a /24 can't be SWIP'd and if you don't control >> > > your in-addr.arpa entries you don't control your domain and have no >> > > security. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > From: John Palmer (NANOG Acct) [mailto:nanog@adns.net] >> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 1:40 PM >> > > >> > > > <FLAME ON> >> > > >> > > > PSINet dumped all of their DSL customers onto CAIS. Covad is >> > > > the backhaul >> > > > provider for them both. Need I say more? >> > > > >> > > > Bottom line, I dont know how many thousands of people were >> > > > without service >> > > > for more than a day because the whole transfer was botched. >> > > > >> > > > We have a situation where we had a DSL connection from PSI >> > > > and were using >> > > > our own IP addresses. Problem is that no one changed the >> > > > routing tables and the packets dead-ended at PSI. >> > > > >> > > > Getting CAIS to fix this problem has been a nightmare. At >> > > > first, PSI didnt >> > > > stop announcing the routes and now that they have, it seems that >> > > > CAIS will not announce the routes till Monday becuase "no one >> > > > at our NOC >> > > > knows how to do this and the one guy (ONE GUY IN THE WHOLE >> > > > COMPANY - AND THEY ARE A NATIONWIDE PROVIDER????) who knows >> > > > how doesn't work >> > > > weekends." >> > > >> > > > <flame off - sorry to the list for being so loud> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > -- >> > --------------------------- >> > Christopher A. Woodfield rekoil(a)semihuman.com >> > >> > PGP Public Key: >> http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB887618B >> > >-- >--------------------------- >Christopher A. Woodfield rekoil(a)semihuman.com > >PGP Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB887618B

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Re: Dont Knock The Technology, was Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support theirBusiness, and whine about it.
by Vincent J. Bono 14 May '01

14 May '01

After viewing this whole thread and having come from a use-to-be the-great-white-hope "DLEC" I can say that the problem really doesn't lie with the technology but rather with the self deceptions the IPO-happy corporate officers told themselves and their investors about how easy it is to run a carrier and possibly in the outright deceptions of certain "you've got to use our equipment to use our neat little marketing logo" manufacturers. But over all, basic DSL technology has been used for over 15 years by ILECs to provide T1 services over long spans. I guess I agree taht it should be "People who purchase from unproven companies to support their Business and whine about it" -vb ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Palmer (NANOG Acct)" <nanog(a)adns.net> To: <nanog(a)nanog.org> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 2:00 PM Subject: Dont Knock The Technology, was Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support theirBusiness, and whine about it. > > I have never had any line problems with my DSL connection. Never had to have > anyone come out and repair it and its never been down due to a line isssue > and we've had the connection since Jan 2000. > > All of the issues have to due with mess-ups by PSINet or Covad. PSINet had > the wrong IP address information in their database and they sent that over > to CAIS when they transferred the account. Thats what started it all. > > I have to say that I don't see where DSL is a flawed technology, just that > some of the players in the game are not very good at providing support. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Hollis" <goemon(a)anime.net> > To: "Wojtek Zlobicki" <wojtekz(a)idirect.com> > Cc: <jmarr(a)twmaine.com>; "'John Palmer (NANOG Acct)'" <nanog(a)adns.net>; > <nanog(a)nanog.org> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 12:40 PM > Subject: Re: People who purchase unproven technologies to support > theirBusiness, and whine about it. RE: To CAIS Engineers - WAKE UP AND TAKE > CAREOF YOUR CUSTOMERS > > > > On Mon, 14 May 2001, Wojtek Zlobicki wrote: > > > performance and other characteristics. The work that I have done > working > > > for a CLEC has shown me that a line that works well from the start is > likely > > > to stay up for weeks/months. > > > > The DSL from work to home has been up 24/7 for about 4 years now without a > > single interruption. Quite different from our PTP T1's which each go down > > regularly. > > > > -Dan > > > > > >

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