January 1997 - Test - lists.nanog.org

RE: Info on MAE-EAST
by Rodney Joffe 16 Jan '97

16 Jan '97

Michael Dillon said: > How many exchange points have shared media, i.e. hub and spoke topology, > and how many rely exclusively on a mesh of cross-connects? Is there any > data to show whether or not the mesh of cross-connects will scale high > enough to be usable for major NAP's? If so, it would not be difficult > to set up such an exchange point in which people basically pay for rack > space, power and the installation of cross-connects. Then Paul Vixie said: >Hmmm. According to what I learnt in school, the cost of a connected network >like a GIGAswitch or Catalyst or DELNI with N participants is: > > (N x interface_cost) + (N x port_cost) >...while the cost of a connected network made up of wire peers is: > (2 x sum(N - 1) x interface_cost) > (snip for space) > > >That means with 19 ISP's in a GIGAswitch-free room, there are 342 FIP's at >a cost of, what, US$12000 each after discount? I'll betcha I can buy quite >a few GIGAswitches for US$4.1M. Oops, that's not a fair comparison, since >with a GIGAswitch I also need 19 FIP's. Figure that a fully configured >GIGAswitch retails without discount for US$80K and that 19 FIPs are going >to run another US$228K. That's still a *lot* less than 2*sum(n-1). > >This also assumes that we all have VIP2 cards and want to burn 9 7513 slots >just on local peering, and it further assumes that a 7513 won't just simply >melt if all the interfaces ever get hot at the same time. > >The breakeven is between N=3 and N=4. On the Internet, N never stays small. > >(And that breakeven assumes that the 4 people have to buy the whole >GIGAswitch with noone like MFS to underwrite the costs of the unused ports; >that means four people in a room together could SAVE MONEY buying the GIGA- >switch.) > >Gah. So I say: Here's a novel thought: how about reverting to the original model for the NAPs? We have an 11,000 sq ft ex DOD (built like a brick *&^%house) datacenter near MAE East ( 8201 Greensboro Drive in McLean). We have MFS (including OC12 to MAE East), MCI Metro and Bell Atlantic sonet terminated in house. And we have raised floor, computer grade HVAC, conditioned power, UPS and generator, and will have 24x7 remote hands (no 2-6 hour response times). If you want to collectively come up with an architecture (assuming the hub and spoke/gigaswitch/cross-connect factions can agree on something), we'll fund the purchase and installation of the equipment (similar to MPIX in Phoenix, a cost-recovery only model). We'll also offer free facilities to the long distance companies to terminate in the facility (you may have to encourage them to do so), so that the $2,000 6ft cable disappears. And the local loops. Obviously *we'* will benefit from not having to run a local loop to the interconnect. In exchange we'll make colo facilities available that are significantly better than the current underground parking facilities, and at better rates. Anyone interested? Rodney Joffe Genuity Inc., a Bechtel company http://www.genuity.net http://hopscotch.genuity.net

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Returned mail: Data format error
by Mail Delivery Subsystem 16 Jan '97

16 Jan '97

The original message was received at Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:37:46 -0800 from rob@localhost ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- news+arpa.nanog (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- nrecnews: your message was not accepted by netnews, because: nrecnews: Message-ID syntax error. *** Please refer to page 23, paragraph 4.6.1. and Appendix D *** of NIC RFC #822 for the correct syntax, and fix your mailer. nrecnews: it was going into the newsgroup arpa.nanog 501 news+arpa.nanog... Data format error ----- Original message follows -----

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Re: Info on MAE-EAST
by randy＠psg.com 16 Jan '97

16 Jan '97

I continue to be impressed by the displays of expertise in costs and business models made by those who have no experience in the particular businesses in which they are telling everybody else how and with what business model they should be run. This seems to often be coupled with a deep seated belief that they are being ripped off and the marketplace (well, actually certain particular evil people and organizations in it) is out to see them fail. My family's expression for this is "Do I smell cows?" My business friends' expression for this is market consolidation and shakeout. randy

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Re: Bay Networks in bed with commie censors?
by William Allen Simpson 16 Jan '97

16 Jan '97

> From: Vadim Antonov <avg(a)pluris.com> > Look, it is impossible to keep technology from being used by > communist regimes. Like it's impossible to keep knives from hands > of murderers. But what do you say about a person who gives a knife > to a known murderer knowing very well that it is going to be used > to kill yet another victim? And teaches him how to wield it more > efficiently? And gets paid for it? > Americans would call that an "entrepreneur". Of course, Americans already have military services ready and willing to do all this without pay, if only the ruling dictator promises to let American "entrepreneurs" keep buying and selling in their country. You really have become an American "conservative" (which has nothing to do with conservation of anything). I liked Dillon's message. "Create millions of small opportunities for Chinese people to share information and they will do the rest." BTW, I've had a couple of Chinese freinds and housemates studying here how to make better computers, software and hardware, at least one of whom was teaching at the University in Beijing last time I heard; an SO that did immersion Chinese and went off and taught English there for a couple of years; and a freind who was a reporter at the Detroit Free Press that went and helped the official news agency in Beijing with translations. None of them thought that they were doing something immoral by helping the official infrastructure. But then, over the past 20+ years I've suffered through a Michigan "Red Squad" and a couple of FBI investigations, so at least someone thinks I'm just one of those commie pinko liberals myself.... WSimpson(a)UMich.edu Key fingerprint = 17 40 5E 67 15 6F 31 26 DD 0D B9 9B 6A 15 2C 32 BSimpson(a)MorningStar.com Key fingerprint = 2E 07 23 03 C5 62 70 D3 59 B1 4F 5E 1D C2 C1 A2

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Info on MAE-EAST
by Todd R. Stroup 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

Does anyone have any info on if MAE-EAST allows collocation of a 7507 now or is it still stated that the size has to be about the size of a 7010. Please return email direct to tstroup(a)fibernet.net Thanks. Todd R. Stroup Fiber Network Solutions, Inc.

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AS 6245 announces route for Internic?
by Chris A. Icide 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

I'm receiving announcements for Internic routes via AS 6245. Anyone have any idea who this might be? It's a little difficult for me to get contact information from rs.internic.net right now. Yorktown>sho ip bgp 198.41.0.12 6082 6245, (aggregated by 6245 204.70.200.82), (Received from a RR-client) 192.41.177.73 (metric 3) from 207.7.0.34 (207.112.248.129) Origin IGP, localpref 100, valid, internal, atomic-aggregate, best Chris A. Icide Nap.Net, L.L.C.

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Re: Bay Networks in bed with commie censors?
by Vadim Antonov 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

>Not everything is a freeking conspiracy either. Did i say anything about any conspiracy? What we have is a company which does not give a damn about such abstract notions as liberty and freedom. Not the first one, not the last one. The ministry of information isn't a conspiracy either. It is an agency of the regime i (and many others) have particular dislike to. That agency's chapter is to control what citizens can and what they aren't allowed to hear. That's what it is doing. Now we have the said company in the "partnership" with the said agency. Can it be more clear than that? Sure, it is legal. So are Pat Buchanan's speeches. What is sad, most people just don't care. Not until they're personally dragged by goons from their own bed. That attitude is, essentially, what sustains totalitarism. --vadim

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RE: Questions about Internet Packet Losses
by Chris A. Icide 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

Mr. Shein; The NANOG list readership/authorship tends to fall into the more "techie" range than anything else. I will take a chance and say the techies outweigh the policy setters on this list. With this in mind, I would suggest that the Spammer problem is a policy problem, not a technical problem. Yelling at techies to fix it is not the solution. Yelling at techies for talking technical terms is even worse. If you want to use your Titanic example, let's get a blind, deaf person to stand iceberg lookout! We can tie a rope to them, and when they fall overboard, we will know we've hit a berg. Let the techies solve the technical problems, and take the policy problems to the policy makers. Now to answer your question, I do believe that Mr. Paul Vixie has a method that you may choose to use to combat the large Spam sites. Perhaps you may want to take a look into that. I forget the web address, but I'm sure someone will post it here soon for you. Chris A. Icide Nap.Net, L.L.C. P.S. Of course this is all MHO, and I apologize if I step on any ones feet for calling them a techie, or insinuating that there are no policy folks here, or just ticking someone off because they are a member of the visually and aurally handicapped. My point is to suggest to anyone who wants to come to this list and rant and rave about problems, should do so in a less agressive manner if they would really like someone to take a look at the problem. ----------

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Re: Bay Networks in bed with commie censors?
by Paul Ferguson 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

At 04:33 PM 1/15/97 -0800, Owen DeLong wrote: > > >Well, AS 666 is owned by the ARMY Weapons Systems Test Center. > And they actually *do* have lots of black helicopters, too, but I digress. - paul

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Re: Bay Networks in bed with commie censors?
by Vadim Antonov 15 Jan '97

15 Jan '97

Edward Fang <edfang(a)visi.net> wrote: On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Vadim Antonov wrote: :Their "partnership" with censors of a communist regime :is repugnant. Using the modern technology to build a :giant brainwashing machine is very scary. >How so ? Communications is actually loosening communism >as it was in China. Yes. >Fax machines have helped, and anything >that facilitates the exchange of ideas will only make >China bend closer to a 'democracy standard'. This network facilitates more propaganda; not the "exchange of ideas". A Chineze citizen would have to be a naive idiot, or a hard-core dissident not minding some time in a jail, to post anything subversive over a state network. >If you see >how China has changed from 10 years ago to now (some form >of capitalism), you will see that they cannot and will not >run the country as communism was once run. Capitalism != freedom of spech. Look at what's going on in Singapore. >I don't think this has anything to do with >commercialism. Are you implying that Cisco and/or >other US firms would turn this deal down (and or not >pursue it?). They didn't do anything like that, ok? >Should we also boycott Coke, McDonalds, KFC, McDonald >Douglas, etc ? Since they all profit from the people >of a 'communist' country that does not endorse the >same personal freedoms that we do. They do not profit by creating means for state brainwashing and censorship. The trade and communications with _people_ of communist countries is unquestionable good. Helping the communist state to spread their propaganda is amoral. Please make a difference between a person eating a burger and a state agency running the politically censored network. --vadim

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