September 1996 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Re: SYN flood messages flooding my mailbox
by Vadim Antonov 23 Sep '96

23 Sep '96

Curtis Villamizar <curtis(a)ans.net> wrote: >I guess a picture would help: > > AS X R1 ------ AS Y R3 > | | > | | > AS X R2 ------ AS Y R4 > >If the route learned at AS Y R4 is preferred, AS Y R3 may get packets >although the forwarding entry (Fib) points toward AS Y R4, the LocRib >does not contain the entry (no preferred), only the AdjRibIn contains >the entry. If the filter must be set according to AdjRibIn, That's what i meant. >you now have a filter list **in the forwarding path** considerably longer than >the current routing table. Won't scale at the very least. Not. Every entry in the filter contains the following data: [Prefix] [Prefix Length] [Bitmask] where bitmask has a bit per every interfaces, so the bit if set if packet matching the prefix is allowed from that interface. Since in practically all cases all prefixes (NOT routes!) found in all RIBs are also found in FIB (exceptions are proxy aggregation and/or restricted end-to-end reacheability) the size of the list is the same as size of FIB. In fact, you don't even need to keep a separate table. Just add a bitmask field to the FIB entries. (On customer-access routers with many interfaces each allowing only very small portion of routes in it may be more economical to implement explicit per-interface lists than to add fields to FIB). > >Or if the "known route" goes through an AS that uses YOU as their best > >route but the reverse traffic goes a different way.. > > So what? The assumption is that multi-homed AS announces all its > routes to all exits (maybe with different "metrics"). >In this case: AS a R1 ------ AS b R2 ------ AS d R4 | | | | | | +----------- AS c R3 -----------+ >In this case AS c prefers AS a. AS d prefers AS c. AS b prefers the >routes it hears from AS b. AS a prefers some route through AS d that >it hears from AS b over the route it hears from AS c. Therefore AS d >has no Fib, LocRib, or even AdjRibIn from AS b R2, but will get >legitimate traffic from R2 that is dstined for places that is >reachable through AS d but for which AS d uses AS c for the return path. ASes a and d are transit. I clearly stated that the reverse-route filtering technique is inapplicable for transit AS-es. Fortunately, the number of transit ASes is very small (two years ago i measured it as 170-something), and they generally form a backbone. On the other hand, practically all customer AS-es or intra-AS tail links are not transit. >The first case is clearly less scalable than the current routing table >(consider putting all AdjRibIn entries at a NAP into your filters on >the forwarding card). Er. That statement is just plain wrong. >The second just plain doesn't work. It is exactly within the restriction i stated beforehand. You don't want to do packet filtering on backbone in any case. --vadim

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Re: Bob Metcalfe: Infoworld Sept 23 page 46 Which young brat?
by Avi Freedman 23 Sep '96

23 Sep '96

> On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Christopher Sevcik wrote: > > > In his excellent article in the Info world which I received today, he > > referred to a young ISP brat. > > > > Who's he referring to? He appears to be talking about me. I sent him e-mail explaining that I was mis-quoted. What I *said* was "Some say that Metcalfe ...". What was printed was something like "Freedman says that Metcalfe ...". Though, given the gigacollapse predictions which he made - combined with the fact that it's extraordinarily difficult to believe that he actually *believed* them - the quote might have started "Metcalfe has become a journalist, more interested in gaining readership than in using his formidable experience to help with the operational and architectural problems that the Internet community is facing..." if I had been asked for a quote about Metcalfe. Which I wasn't... > Didn't the print version give the URL of thie document containing this: > > Avi sums it up: "Metcalfe has become an elder statesman and > > ... to read the rest go to > http://www.forbes.com/asap/gilder/telecosm18.html > > Michael Dillon - ISP & Internet Consulting Anyway: wow, I can't believe it. I might have surpassed Sean Doran as the official Brat-boy of the ISP/ NSP community. Maybe I'll get Sean to pen my letter to the editor in reply to his brat comments... Avi

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Re: SYN flood messages flooding my mailbox
by Vadim Antonov 23 Sep '96

23 Sep '96

rwoundy(a)VNET.IBM.COM wrote: >where bitmask has a bit per every interfaces, so the bit if set if >packet matching the prefix is allowed from that interface. >How do you handle the case of an inter-exchange point, with multiple >BGP neighbors per interface? The MAE-East NAP is the worst case >(and not everyone at a NAP is a "transit AS"). I don't propose using that at exchange points or anywhere within backbones, for that matter. This is for filering on edges _only_. >What do you do with a prefix announced through two providers, where >the prefix is taken from one provider's supernet? Wouldn't you need >to check the RIB entries of all matching prefixes (including default)? See before. You just don't do that where you have interesting routing. Fortunately, routing on customer tail links (and in IGP-only networks) is not "interesting" in 99.99% of cases. --vadim

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Re: SYN flood messages flooding my mailbox
by rwoundy＠VNET.IBM.COM 23 Sep '96

23 Sep '96

*** Resending note of 09/23/96 18:38 Subject: Re: SYN flood messages flooding my mailbox >Not. Every entry in the filter contains the following data: > [Prefix] [Prefix Length] [Bitmask] >where bitmask has a bit per every interfaces, so the bit if set if >packet matching the prefix is allowed from that interface. How do you handle the case of an inter-exchange point, with multiple BGP neighbors per interface? The MAE-East NAP is the worst case (and not everyone at a NAP is a "transit AS"). If you tried to handle the case of an IXP, wouldn't you have to filter based on both interface and MAC address? >Since in practically all cases all prefixes (NOT routes!) found in >all RIBs are also found in FIB (exceptions are proxy aggregation >and/or restricted end-to-end reacheability) the size of the list >is the same as size of FIB. What do you do with a prefix announced through two providers, where the prefix is taken from one provider's supernet? Wouldn't you need to check the RIB entries of all matching prefixes (including default)? -- Richard Woundy, IBM

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Re: FDDI concentrator w/DC power
by feldman＠MFSDatanet.COM 23 Sep '96

23 Sep '96

> I cannot find a FDDI concentrator that runs on -48 VDC. Is there a > product I've missed? This shortage of DC-powered concentrators might > explain some of the transient outages during power problems at MAE-East, > perhaps? The FDDI concentrators at MAE East (along with all the other AC-powered infrastructure equipment) are powered by a UPS with at least 5 hours of battery power. In addition, all customer equipment co-located at the 1919 Gallows P-1 MAE facility is powered by the UPS. Here's a note from the facilities manager for MAE East on the subject of power: --------------------- MAE East at 1919 Gallows Road P-1 level is configured as follows: - four (4) two hundred amp Lorain rectifiers. - three (3) 1600 amp battery stacks. - one (1) 30 KVA UPS system. - generator umbilical is installed for use with MFS owned 150 KW mobile generator when required. Generator can be on site within one hour and has sufficient fuel to run for 24 hours. All racks installed at MAE East are equipped with a multi outlet power strip with a dedicated 20 amp AC circuit to the UPS system. Therefore all customer electronics and all MFS equipment requiring AC power are provided with filtered AC power via the UPS and have a five hour battery reserve. In addition, all racks have a minimum of 15 amps DC power to a Hendry fuse panel. This panel is served via the DC power plant which provides a minimum of eight hours of battery reserve. The standard MFS offering does not include UPS power in the MAE facilities. At MAE East we have gone one better and provided all customers with UPS. This is a premium service provided at no additional cost. As a final note, we are about to begin construction to upgrade facilities at both 8100 Boone Blvd. and MAE East. This work will include the installation of a permanent 900 KW generator. --------------------- Steve

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Re: New Denial of Service Attack on Panix
by Tim Bass 23 Sep '96

23 Sep '96

Ladies&Gentlemen, IMO, just 'getting the word out' in mailing lists, newsgroups and WWW sites is not an effective way to mitigate the denial-of-service attacks under consideration. Here is why..... When a security hole is found, for example a buffer problem in a networking daemon, 'getting the word out' is effective, because the end user is highly motivated to correct the problem because the problem effects whomever directly (and those who do not fix the problem only effect their sphere of influence, not the entire Internet community). However, in the instance of these DoS attacks, the lower tier ISP is not significantly motivated to take corrective actions because the results have little direct or immediate effects on business ops. Furthermore, if the provider fails to maintain the filter list or even configure the lists in the first place, little or nothing will effect day to day operations (because more pressing matters are in most businesses radar screen, i.e. surviving !) It is for this one reason; the security problem effects users *outside* the providers influence and not inside, merely providing information is a good, but not an effective, way of mitigating the situation, especially in the short term. Continuing with a suggestion..... Overly simplifed, the net is loosely organized along a routing hierarchy with level 0 transit providers at the top. The level 0 providers might agree not to provide services to lower tier providers or customers that do not provide a means of verifying that source route filters are in place (repeat this for lower tiers ...... ) { what is the international organization to do this?, or should there even be one ?) Also, to make matters easier, a WG might be formed, chaired by level 0 provider(s) perhaps, working on both the admin policy and a set of software verification tools to do verification 'magic' on the filters as envisioned by the WG. Furthermore, because the success of this venture is important to, not only providers, but commerce as a whole, ISI, MERIT, or some other org with hooks into the Internetworking Money Flow (IMF :) from NSF or DARPA, etc. might consider putting together a white paper to request additional funding to develop the software tools and manage the releases. Hopefully.... this idea is not falling on 'blind eyes' (as opposed to 'deaf ears' :-) IMO, just 'getting the word out' is not enough to take a significant bite out of this problem. The first step to significantly mitigate DoS attacks has been taken (getting the word out), but, IMO, a greater, second step should be in our radar now. Thanks for your patience, Tim

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Re: looking for real-time CPU utilization graph
by Paul Ferguson 23 Sep '96

23 Sep '96

I didn't see CPU stats among the links, but try: http://www.ra.net/statistics/ - paul At 11:39 AM 9/23/96, Edward Xiao/ACSI wrote: >Hi, All: > >I once saw a internet network CPU real-time utilization graph somewhere, >probably within Merit Homepage. Is anyone know where to find it. > >Ed Xiao >American Communications Services, Inc. > >

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Re: SYN flood messages flooding my mailbox
by Vadim Antonov 23 Sep '96

23 Sep '96

Curtis Villamizar <curtis(a)ans.net> wrote: >> If you relax criteria for reverse-route filtering to "known route" instead >> of "best route" then any customer (non-transit) AS can be filtered safely >> at border routers. >And if the "known route" is know by another router but suppressed from >IBGP advertisement because there is a better route .. But you still have the exterior route in the RIB. So you know it. I'm talking about filtering on borders, not within backbones utilizing the BGP hack. >Or if the "known route" goes through an AS that uses YOU as their best >route but the reverse traffic goes a different way.. So what? The assumption is that multi-homed AS announces all its routes to all exits (maybe with different "metrics"). Is there any practical example of _properly configured_ multihomed non-transit AS which advertises more routes at one exit than another? >Both of these cases and other cause a blackhole. Not at all. >Of course, if by "known route" you mean known because it is in the >IRR, and the IRR is known to be reliable, then I accept your argument >but caution that the IRR is not always reliable, but this is yet >another reason to make it more reliable. IRR. I always held an opinion that the kludge got to die as soon as somebody comes with real way to authenticate routing information. It is silly to build centralized databases for anything. They by definition cannot be reliable. (Note that address allocation does not have to be centralized -- in fact, TWD is the direct result of such centralization). >We've had providers shut down sites because they were slow to address >hacking launched from their site... Do you enjoy playing a cop? I don't. To me, the real solution is to make sure attacks are not feasible in the first place. Or at least make sure that the victim can easily obtain the identity of perpetrator and pursue the legal action on his own. ISPs are not in business of catching criminals. Their business is to deliver bits. >In one case an NSFNET regional shut >down a large university because their CS department just said >"security is a hard problem" and refused to do anything. After 4 days >of no Internet access they had things quite thoroughly cleaned up. The times of the Big Bro^H^H^HNSFNET are long gone. Good riddance, i certainly have no nostalgia. If people want to have no locks on their doors it is certainly completely within their rights, ok? >Shutting down the source is a lot easier if you know the source. I do not want to shut down anyone, if possible. Internet made a very good device to support right of speach. Now the question is how to equip it to provide the right not to listen. The authentication is very instrumental to enforce the right not to listen. At least, then you can explicitly say: "I don't want to listen to anything from such and such". Essentially, source address filtering is the non-cryptographic form of authentication. In reality approach like that works surprisingly well. --vadim

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looking for real-time CPU utilization graph
by Edward Xiao/ACSI 23 Sep '96

23 Sep '96

Hi, All: I once saw a internet network CPU real-time utilization graph somewhere, probably within Merit Homepage. Is anyone know where to find it. Ed Xiao American Communications Services, Inc.

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Re: New Denial of Service Attack on Panix
by Hans-Werner Braun 23 Sep '96

23 Sep '96

I am actually fairly serious. The tremendous amount of email this generated amazes me. With the amount of effort going into that, I suspect may be 40% or more of the problem could already be alleviated if people would just go out and coordinate and do it. Yes, it will not resolve things at the 100th percentile, but what are we optimizing for? A solution for generations to come? Or something that helps, and that can perhaps be augmented by some other means, such as spot measurements (especially for events that last hours). All reminds me actually a little of the movie Star Trek Generations, when Picard an Soran were on this planet, about minutes away from the whole star system being blown to kingdom come, Picard helplessly throwing little rocks at the shield, and Soran asking him something like "don't you have anything better to do."

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