April 1996 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Peer Groups vs. Individual Peers
by Jim Fleming 30 Apr '96

30 Apr '96

On Monday, April 29, 1996 2:19 PM, Michael Dillon[SMTP:michael@memra.com] wrote: @ On Mon, 29 Apr 1996, John Scoggin wrote: @ <snip> @ @ Just remember the plain English meaning of the word "peer". It refers to @ an individual who is at the same level as you. Same level of power (CEO @ vs. engineer), same level of skill (PhD vs undergrad) and so on. @ @ @ Michael Dillon Voice: +1-604-546-8022 It should come as no surprise to anyone that large companies mostly like to work with other large companies and small companies and individuals are not taken seriously unless they are members of a group that begins to take on some significance. As I have suggested before, I feel that individuals and small companies should use the Legacy Internet to "reinvent the net". The large companies will never do this because it is not in their best interest and they move very slowly. This type of innovation must come from individuals and small companies. Individuals and small companies can take advantage of the facilities provided by the large providers without directly involving the large providers in this new OuterInternet. Any time wasted trying to work with the large companies is just that...time wasted. In order to build the new OuterInternet, I suggest that small "trusteeships" of 8 people or companies form to work together as a unit. I suggest that the resources (TLDs, IP numbers, etc.) of the OuterInternet be delegated to these trusteeships which can act as natural peer groups. In some cases, a second tier of 8 trusteeships would yield clusters of 64 people/companies which will also provide peer group support. If such trusteeships are formed and advertised, then large companies might begin to take note of the opinions and developments produced by these groups. In some cases, a collection of trusteeships could represent a formidle force when dealing with large companies. Just as the Internet was formed from small collections of individuals and companies experimenting with ideas and implementations, this new OuterInternet can be built using the same model but much more quickly because of the infrastructure provided by the Legacy Internet. In my opion, all of the individuals, small companies and groups that are interested in building the OuterInternet should join a trusteeship and start making a positive contribution to the new system. Maybe the sum total of these trusteeships will someday get the attention of the large carriers but in the meantime that does not need to be the objective. Instead, there are brave new worlds and frontiers to discover and pioneer just like the early Internet explorers. The number 8 has been chosen as an arbitrary size. It is not very large and it is not small. It is smaller than the number of people required to have a baseball team. It is greater than the number of people required in a basketball team. Besides being a power of two, it has the interesting feature that 2 of the people can play primary and secondary roles and each of those 2 can have 2 and those 2 can have 2. This provides for some continuity and the development of people without requiring that everyone be a peer from the beginning. Trusteeships could easily be formed by 1 or 2 individuals developing a web page that advertises for 6 additional players. Resumes could be submitted and the trusteeship would develop a mission and organization to suit the members. A trusteeship name could be chosen and the group could work together to help develop opinions, policies, specifications, software, etc. that are posted as the output of the trusteeship. In the trusteeship systems that I propose, I suggest that the trusteeships be considered to be "peers" and not individuals. The Internet seems to be populated with individuals that only want to peer with other individuals that they feel are worthy. This lack of cooperation and lack of development of "new blood", causes the progress of the Internet to be slow and plays into the hands of large companies. I always find it interesting that people on the Internet with tons of experience only want to talk to people with more experience than them. In some cases, that is a very small number of people. In the trusteeship system, this same sort of social engineering may take place, but there is more of a chance that new people will find a group to join and will not be berated that they are too new to contribute. Anyone that is interested in the trusteeship approach to "peer" groups as opposed to individual peers, feel free to drop me a line. For those people that want to continue to search for someone worthy to be their peer, I wish you luck. Keep in mind, it is lonely at the top. -- Jim Fleming UNETY Systems, Inc. Naperville, IL e-mail: JimFleming(a)unety.net

1 0

Re: Sprints definition on NAPs (question)
by Steve Heimlich 29 Apr '96

29 Apr '96

---------- >Whats the official list so that I don't have to keep bouncing routes for >Sprint customers all over kingdom come or hope for route reflections on the >various interconnect points... Out of curiosity, does this mean you are pointing a default at someone? Steve

1 0

Re: Peering Policies and Route Servers
by Steve Heimlich 29 Apr '96

29 Apr '96

---------- All, >>In other words, what is the value for an organization to utilize the Route >>Servers? And if there is value, why is everyone not doing it? > >One detractor, to the best of my knowledge, is that the route servers are >not exactly 'dynamic', meaning that they are updated a couple of times >during the course of the day to reflect any changes in routing policy. >Therefore, the possibility for blackhole'ing packets exists. > >I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm remiss. :-) It's possible to have a policy at the RA Route Server which is equivalent to a policy on a router and which does not need to change all that often (e.g., AS-path-based export policy). Of course, when it does need to change, it's the RA which needs to execute that change, which leads into what I think is the real issue: Control. Would you bet your business on a service run by someone other than yourself? While the Route Server is interesting and useful technology (and I'm assuming that we all understand why that may or may not be so), and may become necessary at some point for those providers without resources to deploy appropriate routers, I don't think most organizations would outsource a critical piece of functionality without business assurances that the vending party is accountable for the quality of service it provides. I do not wish to make any point about the current RA folks, but rather highlight that it's just a basic business issue. Emotionally, I certainly want to control my own destiny to the maximum extent possible. From a business perspective, I believe it's essential. Steve

1 0

Sprint NAP
by Robert Bowman 29 Apr '96

29 Apr '96

Does anyone have a valid URL to the sprint nap? I can't seem to find much formal information on the RAs homepage nor sprints. And this url is dead: http://www.ra.net/routing.arbiter/NSFNET/NAPs/Sprint/Sprint.html\ Thanks. Robert Bowman Sr. Hole Plugger Exodus Communications Inc. rob(a)exodus.net (408) 522-8473

2 1

Routes and routing tables
by Christian Nielsen 29 Apr '96

29 Apr '96

As I think we are done talking about DNS, I have been looking at our routing tables as of late. I am seeing that many providers with blocks of address space do not aggregate the addresses. I think that if this is so, there needs to be something done to fix it. Once again, we are not even getting a full BGP table and know that if I see problems on a smaller scale, their most be more of these problems out there. thanks Christian Nielsen Vyzynz International Inc. cnielsen(a)vii.com,CN46,KB7HAP Phone 801-568-0999 Fax 801-568-0953 Private Email - Christian(a)Nielsen.Net BOFH - cnielsen(a)one.dot PS :)

6 6

Re: Peering Policies and Route Servers
by avg＠postman.ncube.com 29 Apr '96

29 Apr '96

There are two good reasons to peer only with backbones of comparable size: 1) technical -- this allows to do hot-potato routing with minimal resulting delay assymetry 2) economical -- peering at IXP is favouring smaller folks in cost/benefit game. For a large ISP the percentage of additional destinations the small ISP offers is smaller, and so is the benefit of peering. ANd extra peerings are far from "free". They produce extra paths which need to be processed by routers, and so translate in shorter lifetime of the equipment -- which means very real money. It also reduces effectiveness of aggregation and increases risk of catastrophic failures (large ISPs spend significant part of engineering resources and practice rather strict controls on configuration process to ensure sanity of routing; they also have to _trust_ each other. Most of garbadge in routing tables comes from small ISPs, and is usually hard to fix (no 24hr NOC etc). So the "three IXPs" limitation is specifically designed to ensure equality of sizes (to a some extent), other provisions of BLIAs ("blia" is a common profanity in Russian, btw :) include 24hr NOC etc. Thus, far from being anti-competitive restrictions those policies only serve to level the playing field -- as players who skip investment in infrastructure, engineering and operations would get unfair advantage otherwise. No sane NSP would refuse peering with a new nationwide DS-3 backbone -- providing that it is something more than hot air. The plank is going to be raised to OC-3 pretty soon, though.... --vadim

1 0

BGP assistance requested
by Larry Rosenman 28 Apr '96

28 Apr '96

I am currently having my BGP baptism with a multipoint frame connection and trying (with some but not a lot of success) to balance the traffic to have it make some sense. is there anyone on this list willing to spend 15-20 minutes on the phone walking thru my config and making some suggestions? we are on one providers net with 3 interfaces to 3 different routers, so it is making my reading of the BGP tutorial from Cisco harder. Any help would be appreciated. (The router config would be available to any helpers). THanx in advance. if this request isn't in keeping with this list, please let me know. Larry Rosenman -- Larry Rosenman Phone: +1 214-399-0210 (voice) Internet: ler(a)lerami.lerctr.org US Mail: 900 Lake Isle Circle, Irving, TX 75060-7726

1 0

Network number by country matrix wanted
by gih＠aarnet.edu.au 28 Apr '96

28 Apr '96

I'm attempting to do a detailed end to end traffic flow analysis here, and I was wondering if anyone has got a table of network number and country code table I can use in the post processing of the data. Any pointers would be greatly apprecated! thanks, Geoff Huston Telstra Internet

1 0

Re: Routes and routing tables
by Avi Freedman 28 Apr '96

28 Apr '96

> On Sat, 27 Apr 1996, Avi Freedman wrote: > > > Take a look at http://www.routes.netaxs.com for the output of an > > Avi, > > I can't get to the site, no DNS... > > > www.routes.netaxs.com > Server: lonepeak.vii.com > Address: 206.71.77.2 > > *** lonepeak.vii.com can't find www.routes.netaxs.com: Non-existent domain > > maybe your dns isn't updated yet.. > > Christian Nielsen > Vyzynz International Inc. cnielsen(a)vii.com,CN46,KB7HAP > Phone 801-568-0999 Fax 801-568-0953 > Private Email - Christian(a)Nielsen.Net BOFH - cnielsen(a)one.dot PS :) Argh, apologies. It's http://routes.netaxs.com. It's that stupid 'http://www' reflex. Same thing that makes me type 'thought' instead of 'though'. Avi

1 0

Re: Inter-exchange media types
by Paul Ferguson 27 Apr '96

27 Apr '96

Wolfgang brings up a good point; there are certainly regional interests in creating exchange points within certain geographic areas. This is a Good Thing (tm). We should encourage this is every way, shape or form. Especially in SE Asia, and other areas where traffic traverses already congested links back to the US just to reach its final destination in SE Asia. I realize this is borderline NANOG topic, but it really *does* affect North American network Ops when traffic has to transit NA links just to reach its final destination 25 km away from where it originated. This is insane. While I do not mean to point out SE Asia as the most violent offender of this transient problem, the problem exists elsewhere in the world; SE Asia just happens the be the most handy real-world reference. Food for thought. - paul At 10:48 AM 4/25/96 -0700, Wolfgang Henke wrote: > > The problem for the major exchanges may soon be what to do when the > gigaswitch runs out of bandwidth. > > >It seems to suggest more exchange points; like for example the recent >interest in new regional packet exchanges in California and Utah. > >When large 'tier 1' providers run into bottleneck problems, do we >have to rely more on the intermediate and smaller ones to connect us? > > >Wolfgang >

2 1