January 1994 - Test - lists.nanog.org

Re: !! (fwd)
by Elise Gerich 31 Jan '94

31 Jan '94

Hans-Werner, >1. I am forced to assume that CIX membership does not connect me to >the NSF backbone therefore I am missing half of the Internet! If >this is true, how do I connect to the other half? CIX membership provides exactly that; connectivity to CIX members. ANS is a CIX member but the CIX rules (as they have been explained to me) prohibit one service provider from acting as transit between the CIX membership and other service providers (non-CIX members). So if NSFNET regionals are not CIX members, the CIX filters traffic with those non-members. The only solution is to talk to service providers which will redistribute the NSFNET routes and try to make a deal (if your customers agree to only send traffic which is AUP compliant to the NSFNET service.) >2. With CIDR and Number aggregation, we are expected to provide our >customer networks a number range from our larger range. However, we >cannot get a number range from INTERNIC. They expect us to get ours >from "our supplier". Is this CIX? Or do you have to contract with a >"supplier" who has NSF Backbone connections to get a IP number range? > I guess I thought that we would be a supplier! It was my understanding that you have to define yourself as a supplier and let the Internic know your status. > What am I missing? >Dave Nordlund nordlund(a)ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu >University of Kansas 913/864-0450 >Computing Services FAX 913/864-0485 >Lawrence, KS 66045 I am not on the com-priv list but perhaps someone on the regional-techs list has more information concerning these questions. --Elise

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!! (fwd)
by hwb＠upeksa.sdsc.edu 30 Jan '94

30 Jan '94

Forwarded message: >From daemon Sun Jan 30 13:43:45 1994 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 1994 15:38:40 CST-600 From: Dave Nordlund <NORDLUND(a)ccstaff.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: Confusion To: com-priv(a)psi.com Message-Id: <517D84AF8(a)ccstaff.cc.ukans.edu> X-Mailer: PMail v3.0 (R1a) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Folks I am working with a company to form a network to resell Internet access. Years of experience with the existing NSF based Internet does not prepare me for the present confusion I see in the commercial Internet world. 1. I am forced to assume that CIX membership does not connect me to the NSF backbone therefore I am missing half of the Internet! If this is true, how do I connect to the other half? 2. With CIDR and Number aggregation, we are expected to provide our customer networks a number range from our larger range. However, we cannot get a number range from INTERNIC. They expect us to get ours from "our supplier". Is this CIX? Or do you have to contract with a "supplier" who has NSF Backbone connections to get a IP number range? I guess I thought that we would be a supplier! What am I missing? Dave Nordlund nordlund(a)ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu University of Kansas 913/864-0450 Computing Services FAX 913/864-0485 Lawrence, KS 66045

4 3

a proposal
by yakov＠watson.ibm.com 28 Jan '94

28 Jan '94

Folks, Appended is a proposal on address allocation for private internets. It was drafted by myself and Bob Moskowitz (Chrysler Corp.). Yakov & Bob. P.S. The proposal incorporates comments that we received from several people. The Acknowledgement section will be added to reflect their contributions. --------------------------------cut here-------------------------------- Address Allocation for Private Internets Hosts within sites that use IP can be partitioned into three categories: - hosts that do not require Internet access - hosts that need access to a limited set of Internet services (e.g. E-mail, FTP, netnews, remote login) which can be handled by application layer relays - hosts that need unlimited access (provided via IP connectivity) to the Internet Hosts within the first category may use IP addresses that are unambiguous within a site, but may be ambiguous within the Internet. For many hosts in the second category an unrestricted Internet access (provided via IP connectivity) may be more than just unnecessary -- it may be undesirable for privacy/security reasons. Just like hosts within the first category, such hosts may use IP addresses that are unambiguous within a site, but may be ambiguous within the Internet. Only hosts in the last category require IP addresses that are unambiguous within the Internet. It is common for organizations to build private internets which have little or no hosts falling into the third category. Even if an organization has a mixed category of hosts, in many cases within the organization hosts in the first and the second category are interconnected in such a way as to disable their IP level connectivity to the Internet, and hosts in the third category are segregated into a separate segment(s) of topology (separate Link Layer subnetwork). Only these segments need to have IP level connectivity to the Internet. Even if the hosts in the third category are not segregated into a separate physical segment of topology, such hosts can be segregated on a common (with the hosts in the first or the second category) physical segment of topology by assigning two distinct subnetwork numbers to the segment. To conserve IP network address space utilization for the public Internet, hosts within private internets that fall into the first or the second category may take their addresses out of the specific IP address block to be used exclusively by such hosts. The size of the block is expected to be sufficient to accommodate most or all of the practical situations. The reserved block consists of three sub-blocks: a single Class A network number (X), 8 contiguous Class B network numbers (from Y to Z), and 255 contiguous Class C network number (from W to V). For sites with fewer than 1,000 hosts we suggest to use addresses out of the sub-block of Class C network numbers. For sites with more than 10,000 hosts we suggest to use addresses out of the Class A network number. For all other sites we suggest to use addresses out of the sub-block of Class B network numbers. Of course, it is also possible for a site to use addresses out of more than one sub-block (using a mix of Class A, B, and C network numbers) An organization that uses addresses out of the pool allocated for private networks can be more liberal in terms of address space utilization, as compared to the address space utilization of the Internet-visible address space. Thus, rather than using variable-length subnettting, a site may use fixed-length subnetting. In many cases use of Class C network numbers may be helpful to avoid dealing with IP subnetting altogether. The reserved IP address block will not be routed in the Internet. Routers in the Internet are expected to be configured to reject (filter out) Network Layer Reachability Information associated with the destinations identified by the address block. If a router receives such information the rejection shall not be treated as a routing protocol error. Since within a single internet IP addresses have to be unambigous, assigning IP addresses out of the block allocated for private internets has the following implications: - when a host that is taken its IP address from the block moves from the first or the second category into the third one, the host has to change its IP address. - if several previously unconnected sites (several private internets) that have hosts numbered out of the block decide to interconnect (merge their internets into a single internet), this may require changing addresses of the hosts. Since the IP addresses within the block will not be routed in the Internet, a host that takes its IP address from the block will be unreachable (at the network layer) from any host in the Internet. That offers additional firewall protection. With the proposed scheme many large corporate sites can use a relatively small block of addresses from the global IP address space. That would benefit the Internet by conserving the use of IP address space.

1 0

EEPG Terms of Reference
by colella＠nist.gov 28 Jan '94

28 Jan '94

Since the issue of NANOG is going to be discussed at the regional-techs meeting I thought it would be useful to have the EEPG ToR. After I dug it out I thought I'd pass it along. I believe this was the initial draft that Bernard published; I'm not sure if it's been updated (it's the only one I could find on ftp.ripe.net) --Richard ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ TERMS OF REFERENCE FOR EUROPEAN ENGINEERING AND PLANNING GROUP (EEPG) Bernhard Stockman December 27, 1993 The European Engineering and Planning Group is the platform for the engineering and deployment planning of the European part of the Internet. The Internet shall here be seen in a broader sense not just networks based on the TCP/IP protocol suite. EEPG will be active in the area of operational planning and engineering among various network service providers. EEPG will work in close liaison with the Intercontinental Enginering and Planning Group (IEPG) and bring attention to IEPG key activities as relevant within the European networking environment. EEPG can thus be seen as the European branch of the IEPG and European participation in the IEPG will be drawn from EEPG. EEPG is open for anyone but is mainly intended for operational planning and engineering among network service providers. RIPE, being the organization for coordination of European network services, is the adequate framework for the EEPG. EEPG will thus have the form of a RIPE Working Group and meet in conjunction with general RIPE meetings, currently three times a year. With the recent development and growth of the global network environment and the foreseen problems in maintaining an ubiquitous and homogeneous global network infrastructure the EEPG sees as its role to to identify and prioritize key activities of a technical nature which have a direct impact on the European and worldwide networking environment. For this reason EEPG will: - propose solutions for an optimized interconnectivity infrastrucutre among European network service providers with the ambition of securing maximal connectivity and flexibility in terms of engineering and management. With the increasing number of international network service providers, the maintenance and improvement of pan-European and global connectivity is an obvious challenge. - propose coordinated deployment of basic distributed network applications. The overall future of the global networking infrastructure is dependent on our common ability to evolve the collection of basic applications in the direction of enhanced quality and reliability of services. - propose practices and methods for efficient fault isolation and recovery as well as coordinated information dissemination in the area of network management. The focus here is to advocate the necessity of basic common operational methodologies and procedures within each network provider's operational domain to ensure that the user community can be serviced with a seamless end to end capability with appropriate mechanisms to ensure overall quality and reliability of the offered service. This area explicitly includes Network Information Center (NIC) and Network Operations Center (NOC) interaction. An EEPG work-plan will be maintained describing current areas of interest and priorities. The work-plan will from time to time be updated and documented to reflect changes of focus.

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Additions to the NSFNET policy-based routing database
by skw＠twain.merit.edu 28 Jan '94

28 Jan '94

The following changes have been made to the NSFNET policy-based routing database and will be installed on the backbone by 08:00 EST : Total = */8 + */16 + */24 + Other Configured Networks 23494 = 28 4349 19117 0 Added Networks 162 = 0 9 153 0 Deleted Networks 0 = 0 0 0 0 IP address Net name Country Priority:AS ---------- -------- ------- ----------- 135.137/16 NCRWIN13 C:US 1:2149 2:174 143.254/16 SJUSDNET C:US 1:2150 2:200 3:201 149.201/16 FHAC-LAN C:DE 1:293 2:291 161.129/16 MONEURO C:BE 1:93 161.149/16 CITYOFLA C:US 1:1740 164.144/16 MONLAN C:US 1:93 164.154/16 SD-NET C:US 1:93 165.110/16 SBAWAN C:US 1:701 2:702 166.98/16 OV C:US 1:1740 192.12.133/24 LLNL-TUE C:US 1:291 2:293 3:200 4:201 192.47.46/24 ANCTNET C:JP 1:1240 2:1800 192.133.5/24 NAPCNET C:US 1:19 2:568 192.204.156/24 ANSP-3 C:US 1:204 2:1206 192.204.157/24 ANSP-4 C:US 1:204 2:1206 192.207.127/24 OUTPOST C:US 1:560 2:701 192.216.3/24 NETAFFYMAX3 C:US 1:200 2:201 192.217.33/24 KASKASKIA C:US 1:1225 2:266 3:267 193.32.50/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-50 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.51/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-51 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.52/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-52 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.53/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-53 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.54/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-54 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.55/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-55 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.56/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-56 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.57/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-57 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.58/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-58 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.59/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-59 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.60/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-60 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.61/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-61 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.62/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-62 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.63/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-63 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.64/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-64 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.65/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-65 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.66/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-66 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.67/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-67 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.68/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-68 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.69/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-69 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.70/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-70 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.71/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-71 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.72/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-72 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.73/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-73 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.74/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-74 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.75/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-75 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.76/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-76 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.77/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-77 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.78/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-78 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.79/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-79 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.80/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-80 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.32.81/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-81 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.40.110/24 FOREX-NET C:EE 1:1800 2:1879 3:1133 4:1240 193.40.122/24 FOREX2-NET C:EE 1:1800 2:1879 3:1133 4:1240 193.101.11/24 INFODATA C:DE 1:701 2:1800 193.101.22/24 DIGI-NET C:DE 1:701 2:1800 193.104.224/24 FR-EUTELSAT1 C:FR 1:701 2:1800 193.115.32/24 LCD-C-115-32 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.115.33/24 LCD-C-115-33 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.115.34/24 LCD-C-115-34 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.115.35/24 LCD-C-115-35 C:GB 1:701 2:1800 193.141.106/24 DINOCO-NET C:DE 1:1324 4:1133 194.13.0/24 HENKNET C:NL 1:1800 2:1133 3:1674 4:1240 198.5.222/24 EXPLORE-NET C:US 1:701 2:702 198.5.223/24 MCSP-NET C:US 1:701 2:702 198.31.126/24 BARRNET-C-31-126 C:US 1:200 2:201 198.31.127/24 BARRNET-C-31-127 C:US 1:200 2:201 198.36.16/24 SCSDNET16 C:US 1:2149 2:174 198.51.77/24 PSYCHO-C-51-77 C:US 1:1740 198.51.78/24 PSYCHO-C-51-78 C:US 1:1740 198.51.79/24 PSYCHO-C-51-79 C:US 1:1740 198.51.80/24 PSYCHO-C-51-80 C:US 1:1740 198.51.81/24 PSYCHO-C-51-81 C:US 1:1740 198.78.184/24 TDEC C:US 1:279 2:86 198.80.31/24 ANS-C-80-31 C:US 1:1333 198.80.36/24 ANS-C-80-36 C:US 1:1327 198.80.56/24 RIAPUB-NET1 C:US 1:1324 198.86.40/24 UNC-OUTR C:US 1:81 198.87.15/24 CICNET-C-87-15 C:US 1:266 2:267 3:1225 198.94.36/24 CHABOT5 C:US 1:200 2:201 198.97.80/24 NWOCUNCLS C:US 1:19 2:568 198.112.202/24 ALPINECSI-1 C:US 1:560 198.114.152/24 FOLGER C:US 1:560 2:701 198.114.224/24 IDEA-C-114-224 C:US 1:560 2:701 198.114.225/24 IDEA-C-114-225 C:US 1:560 2:701 198.114.226/24 IDEA-C-114-226 C:US 1:560 2:701 198.114.227/24 IDEA-C-114-227 C:US 1:560 2:701 198.114.229/24 SEABEAM-C-114-229 C:US 1:560 2:701 198.114.230/24 SEABEAM-C-114-230 C:US 1:560 2:701 198.114.231/24 SEABEAM-C-114-231 C:US 1:560 2:701 198.114.232/24 VPHARM-2 C:US 1:560 2:701 198.138.182/24 BELL-ATL-MDN1 C:US 1:97 198.138.183/24 BELL-ATL-MDN2 C:US 1:97 198.145.84/24 WDN-C-145-84 C:US 1:1240 2:1800 198.151.210/24 MBSA C:US 1:1240 2:1800 198.161.23/24 NOFC1-NET C:CA 1:602 2:601 3:603 198.166.11/24 WCB-GOV-NS-CA C:CA 1:603 2:601 3:602 198.177.182/24 WRH C:US 1:210 2:209 198.178.132/24 IWU C:US 1:1225 2:267 3:266 198.186.155/24 PSYCHO-C-186-155 C:US 1:1740 198.186.156/24 PSYCHO-C-186-156 C:US 1:1740 198.186.157/24 PSYCHO-C-186-157 C:US 1:1740 198.186.158/24 PSYCHO-C-186-158 C:US 1:1740 198.186.159/24 PSYCHO-C-186-159 C:US 1:1740 198.202.177/24 SOLNET C:US 1:1329 198.202.182/24 SOLTECH C:US 1:1329 198.206.130/24 CYBER-C-206-130 C:US 1:1333 198.206.131/24 CYBER-C-206-131 C:US 1:1333 198.207.193/24 LIIINET C:US 1:1800 2:1240 198.242.215/24 PSINET-C-242-215 C:US 1:2149 2:174 198.243.42/24 CELLULAR-NET C:US 1:209 2:210 198.252.182/24 ZILKERNET C:US 1:2149 2:174 199.0.128/24 STERLINGSOFT C:US 1:1800 2:1240 199.0.129/24 STERLINGSOFT129 C:US 1:1800 2:1240 199.0.130/24 STERLINGSOFT130 C:US 1:1800 2:1240 199.0.131/24 STERLINGSOFT131 C:US 1:1800 2:1240 199.0.132/24 NPR-C-0-132 C:US 1:1800 2:1240 199.0.133/24 NPR-C-0-133 C:US 1:1800 2:1240 199.0.134/24 NPR-C-0-134 C:US 1:1800 2:1240 199.0.135/24 NPR-C-0-135 C:US 1:1800 2:1240 199.0.137/24 SPRINT-C-0-137 C:US 1:1800 2:1240 199.2.24/24 TVIM-DOM C:US 1:1240 2:1800 199.2.61/24 DIS-C-2-61 C:US 1:1240 2:1800 199.2.62/24 DIS-C-2-62 C:US 1:1240 2:1800 199.2.63/24 DIS-C-2-63 C:US 1:1240 2:1800 199.2.64/24 DIS-C-2-64 C:US 1:1240 2:1800 199.10.144/24 LUCE-NADN C:US 1:19 2:568 199.22.0/24 HYDRO-QUEBEC-C-22-0 C:CA 1:603 2:601 3:602 199.22.2/24 HYDRO-QUEBEC-C-22-2 C:CA 1:603 2:601 3:602 199.33.229/24 BOARDWATCH-US C:US 1:1332 199.34.46/24 DIGEX-C-34-46 C:US 1:2548 199.34.47/24 DIGEX-C-34-47 C:US 1:2548 199.34.48/24 DIGEX-C-34-48 C:US 1:2548 199.34.49/24 DIGEX-C-34-49 C:US 1:2548 199.34.50/24 DIGEX-C-34-50 C:US 1:2548 199.34.51/24 DIGEX-C-34-51 C:US 1:2548 199.34.52/24 DIGEX-C-34-52 C:US 1:2548 199.34.53/24 DIGEX-C-34-53 C:US 1:2548 199.34.54/24 DIGEX-C-34-54 C:US 1:2548 199.34.55/24 DIGEX-C-34-55 C:US 1:2548 199.34.56/24 DIGEX-C-34-56 C:US 1:2548 199.34.57/24 DIGEX-C-34-57 C:US 1:2548 199.34.58/24 DIGEX-C-34-58 C:US 1:2548 199.34.59/24 DIGEX-C-34-59 C:US 1:2548 199.34.60/24 DIGEX-C-34-60 C:US 1:2548 199.34.61/24 DIGEX-C-34-61 C:US 1:2548 199.34.62/24 DIGEX-C-34-62 C:US 1:2548 199.34.63/24 DIGEX-C-34-63 C:US 1:2548 199.35.9/24 RIZ C:US 1:2551 199.97.122/24 PSINET-C-97-122 C:US 1:2149 2:174 199.97.123/24 PSINET-C-97-123 C:US 1:2149 2:174 199.97.124/24 PSINET-C-97-124 C:US 1:2149 2:174 199.97.125/24 PSINET-C-97-125 C:US 1:2149 2:174 199.97.126/24 PSINET-C-97-126 C:US 1:2149 2:174 199.97.160/24 PSINET-C-97-160 C:US 1:2149 2:174 199.97.161/24 PSINET-C-97-161 C:US 1:2149 2:174 199.114.2/24 SUBASE-PH-C-114-2 C:US 1:19 2:568 199.114.3/24 SUBASE-PH-C-114-3 C:US 1:19 2:568 199.114.4/24 SUBASE-PH-C-114-4 C:US 1:19 2:568 199.114.5/24 SUBASE-PH-C-114-5 C:US 1:19 2:568 199.114.6/24 SUBASE-PH-C-114-6 C:US 1:19 2:568 202.17.208/24 KAGONCT-NET-C-17-208 C:JP 1:1240 2:1800 202.17.209/24 KAGONCT-NET-C-17-209 C:JP 1:1240 2:1800 202.17.210/24 KAGONCT-NET-C-17-210 C:JP 1:1240 2:1800 202.17.211/24 KAGONCT-NET-C-17-211 C:JP 1:1240 2:1800 Deletions: <none> Expanded listing, sorted by country, then by organization: ========================================================== Belgium ------- Monsanto Services International, Avenue de Tervuren 270, 1150 Brussels, BELGIUM 1:93 MIDnet ---------- 161.129/16 MONEURO (BE) Canada ------ Canadian Forest Service, 5320-122 Street, Edmonton, AB, T2P 3G4, CANADA 1:602 CA*net in Montreal 2:601 CA*net in Toronto 3:603 CA*net in Quebec ------------- 198.161.23/24 NOFC1-NET (CA) Hydro-Quebec, 680 Sherbrooke West, Montreal, QC, H3C 4T8, CANADA 1:603 CA*net in Quebec 2:601 CA*net in Toronto 3:602 CA*net in Montreal ----------- 199.22.0/24 HYDRO-QUEBEC-C-22-0 (CA) 199.22.2/24 HYDRO-QUEBEC-C-22-2 (CA) Workers' Compensation Board, Box 1150, Halifax, NS, B3J 2Y2, CANADA 1:603 CA*net in Quebec 2:601 CA*net in Toronto 3:602 CA*net in Montreal ------------- 198.166.11/24 WCB-GOV-NS-CA (CA) Estonia ------- Estonian Forexbank, Forex Communications Ltd., 8 Ravala Ave., EE , Tallinn, ESTONIA 1:1800 ICM-Atlantic 2:1879 EUROPE-RS 3:1133 CERN/DANTE 4:1240 ICM-Pacific ------------- 193.40.110/24 FOREX-NET (EE) 193.40.122/24 FOREX2-NET (EE) France ------ EUTELSAT - European Telecommunications Satellite Organization, 33, avenue du Maine, F-75755 Paris CEDEX 15, FRANCE 1:701 Alternet 2:1800 ICM-Atlantic -------------- 193.104.224/24 FR-EUTELSAT1 (FR) Germany ------- Fachhochschule Aachen, DVZ, Goethestr. 1, Aachen, D-52064, GERMANY 1:293 Energy Science Network (FIX-East) 2:291 Energy Science Network (FIX-West) ---------- 149.201/16 FHAC-LAN (DE) Individual Network e.V., Koeln, Wilhelm-Ruppert-Str. 38 / C66, D-51147 Koeln, GERMANY 1:1324 ANS New York City - DNSS 35 4:1133 CERN/DANTE -------------- 193.141.106/24 DINOCO-NET (DE) Infodata GmbH, Kaiserstr. 70, 76437 Rastatt, GERMANY 1:701 Alternet 2:1800 ICM-Atlantic ------------- 193.101.11/24 INFODATA (DE) Multinet Services GmbH, Bretonischer Ring 7, Postfach 1163, D-85626 Grasbrunn, GERMANY 1:701 Alternet 2:1800 ICM-Atlantic ------------- 193.101.22/24 DIGI-NET (DE) Japan ----- Asahikawa National College of Technology, 2-2, Shunkodain, Asahikawa, Hokkaido, 071, JAPAN 1:1240 ICM-Pacific 2:1800 ICM-Atlantic ------------ 192.47.46/24 ANCTNET (JP) Kagoshima National College of Technology, 1460-1 Shinko, Hayato-cho, Aira-gun, Kagoshima 899-51, Hayato-cho, Aira-gun, Kagoshima, 899-51, JAPAN 1:1240 ICM-Pacific 2:1800 ICM-Atlantic ------------- 202.17.208/24 KAGONCT-NET-C-17-208 (JP) 202.17.209/24 KAGONCT-NET-C-17-209 (JP) 202.17.210/24 KAGONCT-NET-C-17-210 (JP) 202.17.211/24 KAGONCT-NET-C-17-211 (JP) Netherlands ----------- SARA, Kruislaan 415, NL-1098 SJ Amsterdam, NETHERLANDS 1:1800 ICM-Atlantic 2:1133 CERN/DANTE 3:1674 CERN/DANTE 4:1240 ICM-Pacific ----------- 194.13.0/24 HENKNET (NL) United Kingdom -------------- Longman Cartermill, Technology Centre, North Haugh, St Andrews, Scotland, Great Britain, UNITED KINGDOM 1:701 Alternet 2:1800 ICM-Atlantic ------------- 193.115.32/24 LCD-C-115-32 (GB) 193.115.33/24 LCD-C-115-33 (GB) 193.115.34/24 LCD-C-115-34 (GB) 193.115.35/24 LCD-C-115-35 (GB) Minicomputer Commercial Software Limited, Thames Industrial Estate, Marlow, Bucks SL7 1TB, Great Britain, UNITED KINGDOM 1:701 Alternet 2:1800 ICM-Atlantic ------------ 193.32.50/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-50 (GB) 193.32.51/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-51 (GB) 193.32.52/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-52 (GB) 193.32.53/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-53 (GB) 193.32.54/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-54 (GB) 193.32.55/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-55 (GB) 193.32.56/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-56 (GB) 193.32.57/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-57 (GB) 193.32.58/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-58 (GB) 193.32.59/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-59 (GB) 193.32.60/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-60 (GB) 193.32.61/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-61 (GB) 193.32.62/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-62 (GB) 193.32.63/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-63 (GB) 193.32.64/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-64 (GB) 193.32.65/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-65 (GB) 193.32.66/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-66 (GB) 193.32.67/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-67 (GB) 193.32.68/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-68 (GB) 193.32.69/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-69 (GB) 193.32.70/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-70 (GB) 193.32.71/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-71 (GB) 193.32.72/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-72 (GB) 193.32.73/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-73 (GB) 193.32.74/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-74 (GB) 193.32.75/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-75 (GB) 193.32.76/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-76 (GB) 193.32.77/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-77 (GB) 193.32.78/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-78 (GB) 193.32.79/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-79 (GB) 193.32.80/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-80 (GB) 193.32.81/24 UKSECTOR-C-32-81 (GB) United States ------------- Academy of Natural Science, 1900 Benjamin Franklin Parkway, Philadelphia, PA 19103-1089, USA 1:204 PSCNET Regional Network 2:1206 PSCNET Regional Network -------------- 192.204.156/24 ANSP-3 (US) 192.204.157/24 ANSP-4 (US) Advanced Compression Technology, Inc., 685 Cochran Street, Simi Valley, CA 93065, USA 1:2149 PSINET-2 2:174 NYSERNet Regional Network / PSI ------------- 199.97.123/24 PSINET-C-97-123 (US) Advocacy Group, 1350 I. Street, N.W. Suite 680, Washington, DC 20005, USA 1:2149 PSINET-2 2:174 NYSERNet Regional Network / PSI ------------- 199.97.125/24 PSINET-C-97-125 (US) Affymax Research, 4001 Miranda Ave, Palo Alto, CA 94304, USA 1:200 BARRNet 2:201 BARRNet ------------ 192.216.3/24 NETAFFYMAX3 (US) Alpine Computer Systems, Inc., PO Box 6350, Holliston, MA 01746, USA 1:560 NEARnet Regional Network -------------- 198.112.202/24 ALPINECSI-1 (US) Bay Area Regional Research Network, Pine Hall 115, Stanford, CA, USA 1:200 BARRNet 2:201 BARRNet ------------- 198.31.126/24 BARRNET-C-31-126 (US) 198.31.127/24 BARRNET-C-31-127 (US) Bell Atlantic, 175 Park Ave., Madison, NJ 07940, USA 1:97 JvNCnet Regional Network -------------- 198.138.182/24 BELL-ATL-MDN1 (US) 198.138.183/24 BELL-ATL-MDN2 (US) Boardwatch Magazine, 5970 South Vivian Street, Littleton, CO 80127, USA 1:1332 ANS Denver - DNSS 99 ------------- 199.33.229/24 BOARDWATCH-US (US) CICNet, Inc., CICNet, Inc. 2901 Hubbard Rd Ann Arbor, MI 48105, USA 1:266 CICNET at MERIT 2:267 CICNET at UIUC 3:1225 CICNET at Argonne Labs ------------ 198.87.15/24 CICNET-C-87-15 (US) Cellular, Inc., 5990 Greenwood Plaza Blvd., Ste 300, Englewood, CO 80111, USA 1:209 Westnet Regional Network (Colorado Attachment) - ENSS 141 2:210 Westnet Regional Network (Utah Attachment) - ENSS 142 ------------- 198.243.42/24 CELLULAR-NET (US) Chabot-Las Positas Community College District, 25555 Hesperian Blvd., Hayward, CA 94545, USA 1:200 BARRNet 2:201 BARRNet ------------ 198.94.36/24 CHABOT5 (US) City of Los Angeles, Department of General Services, Communications Services Division, Room 1700, City Hall, 200 N. Spring Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012, USA 1:1740 CERFnet ---------- 161.149/16 CITYOFLA (US) Clinarium, Inc, 1755 Drummers Lane, Wayne, PA 19087, USA 1:1800 ICM-Atlantic 2:1240 ICM-Pacific ------------ 199.0.137/24 SPRINT-C-0-137 (US) Computer Services, Communications Technology, Ward Hall, Annapolis, MD 21402, USA 1:19 Milnet (FIX-East) 2:568 Milnet (FIX-West) ------------- 199.10.144/24 LUCE-NADN (US) CyberGate, Inc., 662 S. Military Trail, Deerfield Beach, FL 33442, USA 1:1333 ANS Atlanta - DNSS 107 -------------- 198.206.130/24 CYBER-C-206-130 (US) 198.206.131/24 CYBER-C-206-131 (US) CycleData Corporation, 6450 Lusk Blvd Ste E104, San Diego, CA 92121, USA 1:1740 CERFnet ------------ 198.51.77/24 PSYCHO-C-51-77 (US) 198.51.78/24 PSYCHO-C-51-78 (US) 198.51.79/24 PSYCHO-C-51-79 (US) 198.51.80/24 PSYCHO-C-51-80 (US) 198.51.81/24 PSYCHO-C-51-81 (US) 198.186.155/24 PSYCHO-C-186-155 (US) 198.186.156/24 PSYCHO-C-186-156 (US) 198.186.157/24 PSYCHO-C-186-157 (US) 198.186.158/24 PSYCHO-C-186-158 (US) 198.186.159/24 PSYCHO-C-186-159 (US) Dialog Information Services, Inc., 3460 Hillview Avenue, Palo Alto, CA 94304, USA 1:1240 ICM-Pacific 2:1800 ICM-Atlantic ----------- 199.2.61/24 DIS-C-2-61 (US) 199.2.62/24 DIS-C-2-62 (US) 199.2.63/24 DIS-C-2-63 (US) 199.2.64/24 DIS-C-2-64 (US) Digital Express Group, Inc., 6006 Greenbelt Road Suite 228, Greenbelt, MD 20770, USA 1:2548 DIGEX-AS ------------ 199.34.46/24 DIGEX-C-34-46 (US) 199.34.47/24 DIGEX-C-34-47 (US) 199.34.48/24 DIGEX-C-34-48 (US) 199.34.49/24 DIGEX-C-34-49 (US) 199.34.50/24 DIGEX-C-34-50 (US) 199.34.51/24 DIGEX-C-34-51 (US) 199.34.52/24 DIGEX-C-34-52 (US) 199.34.53/24 DIGEX-C-34-53 (US) 199.34.54/24 DIGEX-C-34-54 (US) 199.34.55/24 DIGEX-C-34-55 (US) 199.34.56/24 DIGEX-C-34-56 (US) 199.34.57/24 DIGEX-C-34-57 (US) 199.34.58/24 DIGEX-C-34-58 (US) 199.34.59/24 DIGEX-C-34-59 (US) 199.34.60/24 DIGEX-C-34-60 (US) 199.34.61/24 DIGEX-C-34-61 (US) 199.34.62/24 DIGEX-C-34-62 (US) 199.34.63/24 DIGEX-C-34-63 (US) Electric Press, Inc., Suite 204, Isaac Newton Square, Reston, VA 22091, USA 1:1327 ANS Washington D.C. - DNSS 59 ------------ 198.80.36/24 ANS-C-80-36 (US) Explore Cruises and Expeditions, 400 South Elliott Road, Chapel Hill, NC 27514, USA 1:701 Alternet 2:702 Alternet ------------ 198.5.222/24 EXPLORE-NET (US) Gulf Insurance Company, 60 Executive Parkway South, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30329, USA 1:1333 ANS Atlanta - DNSS 107 ------------ 198.80.31/24 ANS-C-80-31 (US) IDEA, 29 Dunham Road, Billerica, MA 01821, USA 1:560 NEARnet Regional Network 2:701 Alternet -------------- 198.114.224/24 IDEA-C-114-224 (US) 198.114.225/24 IDEA-C-114-225 (US) 198.114.226/24 IDEA-C-114-226 (US) 198.114.227/24 IDEA-C-114-227 (US) Illinois Wesleyan University, P.O. Box 2900, Bloomington, IL 61702-2900, USA 1:1225 CICNET at Argonne Labs 2:267 CICNET at UIUC 3:266 CICNET at MERIT -------------- 198.178.132/24 IWU (US) J. Rizzo, 1470 Rhode Island, San Francisco, CA 94107, USA 1:2551 NETCOM ----------- 199.35.9/24 RIZ (US) Kaskaskia College, 27210 College Road, Centralia, IL 62801, USA 1:1225 CICNET at Argonne Labs 2:266 CICNET at MERIT 3:267 CICNET at UIUC ------------- 192.217.33/24 KASKASKIA (US) Lawrence Livermore National Lab, PO Box 5509 L-561, Livermore, CA 94550, USA 1:291 Energy Science Network (FIX-West) 2:293 Energy Science Network (FIX-East) 3:200 BARRNet 4:201 BARRNet ------------- 192.12.133/24 LLNL-TUE (US) Long Island Information, Inc., 639 Concord Avenue, Williston Park, NY 11596, USA 1:1800 ICM-Atlantic 2:1240 ICM-Pacific -------------- 198.207.193/24 LIIINET (US) Medical Computer Systems, 1729 21st Street NW, Washington, DC 20009, USA 1:701 Alternet 2:702 Alternet ------------ 198.5.223/24 MCSP-NET (US) Microcomputer Business Systems Associates, 14439 Robert I Walker Blvd, Austin, TX 78728, USA 1:1240 ICM-Pacific 2:1800 ICM-Atlantic -------------- 198.151.210/24 MBSA (US) Monsanto, 700 Chesterfield Village Parkway, Chesterfield, MO 63998, USA 1:93 MIDnet ---------- 164.144/16 MONLAN (US) NCR, 1700 S. Patterson Blvd, Dayton, OH 45479, USA 1:2149 PSINET-2 2:174 NYSERNet Regional Network / PSI ---------- 135.137/16 NCRWIN13 (US) National Public Radio, 2025 M Street NW, Washington, DC 20036, USA 1:1800 ICM-Atlantic 2:1240 ICM-Pacific ------------ 199.0.132/24 NPR-C-0-132 (US) 199.0.133/24 NPR-C-0-133 (US) 199.0.134/24 NPR-C-0-134 (US) 199.0.135/24 NPR-C-0-135 (US) National Weather Service, Western Region Headquarters, PO Box 11188 Fed Bldg., Salt Lake City, UT 84147-0188, USA 1:210 Westnet Regional Network (Utah Attachment) - ENSS 142 2:209 Westnet Regional Network (Colorado Attachment) - ENSS 141 -------------- 198.177.182/24 WRH (US) Naval Air Propulsion Center, 1440 Parkway Ave, Trenton, NJ 08628, USA 1:19 Milnet (FIX-East) 2:568 Milnet (FIX-West) ------------ 192.133.5/24 NAPCNET (US) Naval Western Oceanography Center, Box 113, Pearl Harbor, HI 96860-5050, USA 1:19 Milnet (FIX-East) 2:568 Milnet (FIX-West) ------------ 198.97.80/24 NWOCUNCLS (US) Netsys, Inc., 1750 S. Telegraph Road, Suite 202, Bloomfield Hills, MI 48302, USA 1:2149 PSINET-2 2:174 NYSERNet Regional Network / PSI ------------- 199.97.126/24 PSINET-C-97-126 (US) Onondaga Community College, Syracuse, NY 13215, USA 1:2149 PSINET-2 2:174 NYSERNet Regional Network / PSI -------------- 198.242.215/24 PSINET-C-242-215 (US) Openvision, Inc., 7133 Koll Center Parkway, Pleasanton, CA 94566, USA 1:1740 CERFnet --------- 166.98/16 OV (US) Performance Systems International, Inc, 165 Jordan Road, Troy, NY 12180, USA 1:2149 PSINET-2 2:174 NYSERNet Regional Network / PSI ------------- 199.97.124/24 PSINET-C-97-124 (US) Performance Systems International, Inc., 510 Huntmar Park Drive, Herndon, VA 22070, USA 1:2149 PSINET-2 2:174 NYSERNet Regional Network / PSI ------------- 199.97.160/24 PSINET-C-97-160 (US) 199.97.161/24 PSINET-C-97-161 (US) Realistic Technologies, 22 Drake Road, Mendham, NJ 07945, USA 1:2149 PSINET-2 2:174 NYSERNet Regional Network / PSI ------------- 199.97.122/24 PSINET-C-97-122 (US) Research Institute of America, 117 East Stevens Avenue, Valhalla, NY 10595, USA 1:1324 ANS New York City - DNSS 35 ------------ 198.80.56/24 RIAPUB-NET1 (US) SOLTECH SYSTEMS CORPORATION, 1180 Sam Rittenberg Blvd Suite 310, CHARLESTON, SC 29407, USA 1:1329 ANS Greensboro - DNSS 75 -------------- 198.202.177/24 SOLNET (US) 198.202.182/24 SOLTECH (US) SUBASE Pearl Harbor, Naval Submarine Base, Pearl Harbor, Information Systems Division, Pearl Harbor, HI 96860-6500, USA 1:19 Milnet (FIX-East) 2:568 Milnet (FIX-West) ------------ 199.114.2/24 SUBASE-PH-C-114-2 (US) 199.114.3/24 SUBASE-PH-C-114-3 (US) 199.114.4/24 SUBASE-PH-C-114-4 (US) 199.114.5/24 SUBASE-PH-C-114-5 (US) 199.114.6/24 SUBASE-PH-C-114-6 (US) San Jose Unified School District, 250 Stockton, San Jose, CA 95126, USA 1:2150 CSUNET-SW 2:200 BARRNet 3:201 BARRNet ---------- 143.254/16 SJUSDNET (US) SeaBeam Instruments, Inc., 141 Washington Street, East Walpole, MA 02032-1155, USA 1:560 NEARnet Regional Network 2:701 Alternet -------------- 198.114.229/24 SEABEAM-C-114-229 (US) 198.114.230/24 SEABEAM-C-114-230 (US) 198.114.231/24 SEABEAM-C-114-231 (US) South Dakota State Government, South Dakota State University, Computing Services, Administration 123, Box 2201, Brookings, SD 57007, USA 1:93 MIDnet ---------- 164.154/16 SD-NET (US) Sterling Software SYD, 1800 Alexander Bell Drive, Reston, VA 22091, USA 1:1800 ICM-Atlantic 2:1240 ICM-Pacific ------------ 199.0.128/24 STERLINGSOFT (US) 199.0.129/24 STERLINGSOFT129 (US) 199.0.130/24 STERLINGSOFT130 (US) 199.0.131/24 STERLINGSOFT131 (US) Syntax Systems, Inc., 840 S 333rd ST, Federal Way, WA 98003, USA 1:1240 ICM-Pacific 2:1800 ICM-Atlantic ------------- 198.145.84/24 WDN-C-145-84 (US) Syracuse City Schools, 735 Harrison St., Syracuse, NY 13210, USA 1:2149 PSINET-2 2:174 NYSERNet Regional Network / PSI ------------ 198.36.16/24 SCSDNET16 (US) TVI Management, 2480 Sand Hill Road, Menlo Park, CA 94125, USA 1:1240 ICM-Pacific 2:1800 ICM-Atlantic ----------- 199.2.24/24 TVIM-DOM (US) Tennessee Dept. of Environment & Conservation, 401 Church Street, Nashville, TN 37243, USA 1:279 SURANET Regional Network (Georgia Tech) 2:86 SURANET Regional Network (College Park) ------------- 198.78.184/24 TDEC (US) The Folger Shakespear Library, P.O. BOX 2240, Amherst, MA 01002-5000, USA 1:560 NEARnet Regional Network 2:701 Alternet -------------- 198.114.152/24 FOLGER (US) The Outpost, 11 Bicentennial Drive, Lexington, MA 02173, USA 1:560 NEARnet Regional Network 2:701 Alternet -------------- 192.207.127/24 OUTPOST (US) U.S. Small Business Association, OIRM - Suite 400, 409 Third Street, SW, Washington, DC 20416, USA 1:701 Alternet 2:702 Alternet ---------- 165.110/16 SBAWAN (US) University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, NC 27599, USA 1:81 CONCERT ------------ 198.86.40/24 UNC-OUTR (US) Vertex Pharmaceuticals Incorporated, 40 Allston Street, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA 1:560 NEARnet Regional Network 2:701 Alternet -------------- 198.114.232/24 VPHARM-2 (US) Zilker Internet Park, 1106 Clayton Lane, Suite 500W, Austin, TX 78723, USA 1:2149 PSINET-2 2:174 NYSERNet Regional Network / PSI -------------- 198.252.182/24 ZILKERNET (US) ========================================================== The configuration reports which reflect today's update will be available for anonymous ftp on nic.merit.edu by 08:00 EST : configuration reports -- nic.merit.edu:nsfnet/announced.networks: as-as.now as-gw.now ans_core.now country.now net-comp.now nets.doc nets.tag.now nets.unl.now NSS routing software configuration files -- nic.merit.edu:nsfnet/backbone.configuration: nss<NSS number>.t3p Information is also avaiable through the PRDB whois server. Type "whois -h prdb.merit.edu help" for details. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT CHANGES: (Updated 1/4/94) CIDRIZATION: On January 4, we converted all Policy Routing DataBase (PRDB) output, including this report, to CIDR notation. All occurrences of network numbers ("x.x.x") on output have been replaced by aggregate notation ("x.x.x/len"). The previous formats for ans_core.now, country.now, or net-comp.now, now in the files ans_core.old, country.old, and net-comp.old in the nic.merit.edu: nsfnet/announced.networks directory. These ".old" files will be discontinued on March 1. TRANSITION TO GATED: During January, the "routed" routing software on the backbone will be replaced by "gated". Gated configuration files are considerably different than routed configuration files. When that transition is made, gated configuration files will replace routed files on the nic.merit.edu:nsfnet/backbone.configuration directory. The archived discussion list "db-disc(a)merit.edu" exists for discussion of PRDB issues. Send a message to "db-disc-request(a)merit.edu" to subscribe. --Dale Johnson (dsj(a)merit.edu) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please send all requests for configuration changes to nsfnet-admin(a)merit.edu using the NSFNET configuration forms. The forms are available on-line from the nic.merit.edu machine. Use ftp and the anonymous login to get on the machine. Do a "cd nsfnet/announced.networks" and get the files template.net, template.net.README, template.gate, and template.as. In order to more efficiently process your requests, we have moved to a system which requires the use of template.net (NACR) version 7.0 ******************************* --Steve Widmayer Merit/NSFNET skw(a)merit.edu --Enke Chen Merit/NSFNET enke(a)merit.edu --Steven J. Richardson Merit/NSFNET sjr(a)merit.edu

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Re: EEPG Terms of Reference
by Richard Colella 28 Jan '94

28 Jan '94

Hans-Werner, > Thanks, Rich! I think this is good text. May be the NANOG would just > replace the names and essentially adopt the same text? I assume that's > also what you had in mind? Certainly worth considering, eh? --Richard

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Re: Comments solicited: assignment of non-routed network numbers
by Jeff.Ogden＠um.cc.umich.edu 27 Jan '94

27 Jan '94

I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. If the number isn't unique and can't be used and the network in question can NEVER attach to the Internet, why bother to get an officially assigned number at all? -Jeff Ogden Merit/MichNet ------- Forwarded message Received: from merit.edu by um.cc.umich.edu via MTS-Net; Wed, 26 Jan 94 20:48:32 EST Return-Path: <medin(a)nsipo.nasa.gov> Received: from dscs.arc.nasa.gov by merit.edu (4.1/1123-1.0) id AA12653; Wed, 26 Jan 94 20:46:11 EST Received: from localhost.arc.nasa.gov by dscs.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/1.5T) id AA00964; Wed, 26 Jan 94 17:46:09 PST Message-Id: <9401270146.AA00964(a)dscs.arc.nasa.gov> To: Vince Fuller <vaf(a)valinor.stanford.edu> Cc: regional-techs(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Comments solicited: assignment of non-routed network numbers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Jan 94 16:50:17 PST." <CMM.0.90.2.759631817.vaf(a)Valinor.Stanford.EDU> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 17:46:09 -0800 From: "Milo S. Medin" (NASA ARC NSI Office) <medin(a)nsipo.nasa.gov> AN RFC is being drafted to assign a "non-globally unique" network number out of class A,B, and C space, for the NIC to respond to these queries with. You should use one of them if it's a disconnected segment which will never require access. Note people really need to understand the meaning of that - including that they won't be able to talk to root nameservers, etc... Thanks, milo

9 11

Comments solicited: assignment of non-routed network numbers
by Vince Fuller 27 Jan '94

27 Jan '94

We have recently received a number of requests from customers wanting IP network numbers which are never intended to be routed to the global Internet. How are other providers dealing with requests of this sort? In the absence of network numbers which have been explicitly set aside for this purpose by the global Internet registry, I can't see a good way for a provider to allocate network numbers for this purpose without having them needlessly consume the provider's address space. One compromise might be for the provider to reserve a block which can re-used by more than one customer, but that block will still consume a chunk of the provider's space. Also, how large should that block be to satisfy all requests for non-connected network numbers? Your comments on this matter would be appreciated. --Vince

8 7

assignment of non-routed network numbers
by yakov＠watson.ibm.com 27 Jan '94

27 Jan '94

Folks, Let me just mention that the topic of assignment of non-routed network numbers for private internets is on the agenda for the reg-tech meeting next week. Yakov

1 0

Re: Comments solicited: assignment of non-routed network numbers
by avg＠titan.sprintlink.net 27 Jan '94

27 Jan '94

>I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. If the number isn't unique and >can't be used and the network in question can NEVER attach to the >Internet, why bother to get an officially assigned number at all? That's easy. If you have users to use *assigned* addresses for isolated networks you can always catch a leak of the bogus routing information into the connected Internet. Try to do that with random adresses. The "isolated" networks very often have some physical connectivity to the Internet (backdoors, firewall machines etc) and the leaks aren't rare. --vadim

1 0