- NANOG - lists.nanog.org

Re: hmm..
by dean＠av8.com 20 Nov '97

20 Nov '97

I get grumpy when the anti-spammers start exaggerating or start screwing up other peoples systems, on purpose or not. Its kind of like a bar fight that one is not really involved in. I'm upset that they are spilling my beer. At 12:33 AM 11/19/97, Barry Shein wrote: >Ah, the "just lie back and enjoy it" point of view...(or at least "if >it comes off in the shower it can't be that bad".) Spam comes off. I think their unix sysadmins probably have knowledge and experience. Experience with T3 and large mail and news systems is valuable, regardless. But damaging other peoples computers doesn't come off quite so easily. I think breaking spammers networks and computers is much worse. People can go to jail if they are caught doing that on purpose. Such activities are truly morally confused. >At any rate, this is all orthogonal to the point. If a spammer was >subscribing nanog to other lists just because he didn't like the >anti-spam discusson on this list that would be wrong, right? Of course its wrong. Its just as bad as the bounce scripts that some people are making. Do you agree these are wrong too? >Yes, keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out of >your head. A good idea for all. I think people who risk their careers and livelihood to damage a spammer network have clearly let their brains fall out. >Spammers steal enormous $$$ from ISPs, and doubly so when their >customers complain about it incessantly and expect some sort of >answer, and spammers add nothing. Regarding user complaints-- You would get a lot less if you didn't promise they wouldn't get spam. You bring the complaint problem on yourself. Set a policy statement that users should forward illegal emails to the postal inspector or the FBI. 'Unwanted email should be deleted. Do not contact operations to report unwanted or illegal email.' Have users use filtering software, and then the cost comes down to much less than 20.017 cents times 10 million users or less than 2.01 million dollars in a 3 Billion dollar a year market. The cost is still much less than one half of one percent of the market. (0.006) Note that if you don't keep spam, it doesn't even cost 20 cents per user. Truly not a big deal. Gigabytes is not a big number in a thousands or millions of terabytes world. Enormous indeed. I have yet to hear anyone declare bankruptcy because of spam. IRC adds nothing. Zip. Except lining to the pockets of IRC providers. Spam adds something very small. At least I might get a good deal on toner cartridges, if I wade through a bunch of garbage. Its not much but its still more than IRC. Some people go through their junk mail and clip coupons. I don't think its worth 30 minutes of my time to get a $1.95 in savings at the supermarket. And even if I throw it out, I still have to wait in line behind someone trying to go through their coupons. And despite 60 Billion dollars a year in bulk mail, people don't think thats theft. "But dammit, their stealing my time!!" I spend more time waiting in line at the supermarket than I do refiling spam. I guess coupons should be banned too. And Sunday drivers. >If I want to offer a service such as, eg, IRC, for money, that's my >business. If a spammer is trying to ram his business down me and my >customer's throat by sending, literally, gigabytes of unsolicited >email then that's a real problem, that's theft. You have absolutely no >right to make the comparison you make, it's morally confused. So if *you* make money on it, its ok. But if someone else make money on something that doesn't benefit you, it scum. I don't buy it. IRC affects ones ability to communicate with other systems on the internet. People are paying big bucks for an internet connection that is essentially "degraded" due to IRC. Replace IRC with any of a dozen other protocols that go across the backbone that aren't truly "useful". I pick on IRC because it really annoyed me back when the backbone was small, and I had a cross country internet project. I found the backbone was slow due to a lot of IRC traffic. I've gotten over it. Everyone sending packets paid their own way. And its a lot faster because places like The World cropped up and charged users for the privelege of wasting time on IRC, and then bought larger connections which in turn financed bigger backbone facilities. I think that you're just upset that the goose laying the golden egg occasionally takes a dump. Here are better comparisons: What if my users waste *my* bandwidth connecting to *your* IRC server from *my* dialin lines? You encourage your IRC users to get flat rate dialin service from me. That causes my "low actual use" cost model to fail, and my costs go up. Are you stealing my dialin resources? I think a reasonable person would say I can't complain about the economics of flatrate services. How about someone sending a lot of "talk" requests to your users? Suppose your users complain, the talk requests take up some small bandwidth. Is anything being stolen? I don't think so. I think if your users truly can't accept spam, and your users truly don't take up any internet resources, then you should disconnect from the internet. But since you take up internet resources that spammers don't use, you can't complain that spammers likewise take up some resources. They paid for their connections. They are entitled to service. There is no requirement on the usefulness to others. Indeed, such a requirement by a public utility (AGIS?, UUnet? MCI? BBN?) might be a violation of civil law. "Sorry, you can't have phone service because we don't think you telemarketers have a useful purpose and you annoy some people". --Dean ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Announcement - a Seattle exchange is now online
by Chris Caputo 20 Nov '97

20 Nov '97

A new exchange is now online in Seattle. For more info please see: http://www.altopia.com/six/ Chris

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Re: Real..Live...SPAM
by alex＠tiac.net 19 Nov '97

19 Nov '97

Re: Real..Live...SPAM Why thank you, you <expletive deleted>. I don't get enough of it in my poor misbegotten life. >>Damon Chadwick wrote: >> It would help if there was something IN the body of this message? > >Rob Wilson wrote: >Here's the stuff that shoulda been enclosed... its not pretty. >Subject: "The Headline That Gave Me A 67% Response Rate!!" >Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 17:25:09 EST >From: shodan(a)savoynet.com >To: Friend(a)public.com WHY?? This doesn't even have an expanded header on it! WHY are you sending re-used SPAM to NANOG? We've all seen evil address pimping spam programs being hawked by spam ****heads. We all know savoynet.com harbors spammers. Why, therefore, are you wasting my time and space? I am not generally a 'poster' on NANOG, just a quiet reader, hungry for information. This is getting retarded. *bows gratefully (and hopefully) to Chris Hoff and splits, finally* NANOG -> /dev/null

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WTF?
by William Duncanson 19 Nov '97

19 Nov '97

OK, what's with the subscribe requests, and the Marilyn Monroe crap? Seems to have initiated at: G:\users\Caesar\tmp>nslookup 166.72.5.121 Server: localhost.starkreality.com Address: 127.0.0.1 Name: slip166-72-5-121.il.us.ibm.net Address: 166.72.5.121 Anybody with ibm.net online? -- _________________ _ _ _________________________ William S. Duncanson |_| Collective |_| http://www.colltech.com Page:800-495-1005 |_ Technologies _| wduncanson(a)colltech.com caesar(a)starkreality.com [] [] "The Power Of Many Minds"

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Re: Real..Live...SPAM
by Rob Wilson 19 Nov '97

19 Nov '97

Damon Chadwick wrote: > > It would help if there was something IN the body of this message? > > What's up there youngster? > > How are things? > > I miss your witty cynicism... if you could call it that > ;-))))))))))))))))) > > Keep in touch. > > Damon > Yea... Kinda saw that when I arrived this morning. Thats why you're the smart guy, and I'm not. ;) Here's the stuff that shoulda been enclosed... its not pretty. Obviously, a IP tech-turncoat! Subject: "The Headline That Gave Me A 67% Response Rate!!" Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 17:25:09 EST From: shodan(a)savoynet.com To: Friend(a)public.com Greetings, *********************************************************************** You were referred to us as someone interested in Internet Marketing. If this message has reached you by mistake, please accept our apologies. 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I put out CSU card that was on fire (fwd)
by Avi Freedman 19 Nov '97

19 Nov '97

Just a warning about GDC 552/A rackmount CSUs... FYI, Avi > Hey NOC people, > > I got home to a smoke in the basement, and tracked it down to a CSU > card that was on fire. Blew out the (functioning!) CSU card, and slid > it out of the rack. This is the second one where components have burned up. > > Anyway, some link is probably down, so I thought I should let people know. > > Please do NOT re-install either CSU card sitting on the chair in Wyndmoor! > > Thanks, > > -Mark

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Re: db-admin
by Gerald Andrew Winters 19 Nov '97

19 Nov '97

Hi Brad, Our sysadmin staff shut down db-admin mail at our request because of a mail loop. Service will be restored shortly. --Gerald (merit)

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db-admin
by Bradley Reynolds 19 Nov '97

19 Nov '97

Is there any reason that RADB's human side (db-admin(a)ra.net) is puking when mail is being sent to it? brad reynolds ber(a)cwru.edu "Faith: not wanting to know what is true." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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dear bog
by Aaron Beck 19 Nov '97

19 Nov '97

is it time to make the list moderated? :) .--------------------------------------------------------- | Aaron Beck, Internetworking Engineer. E: aaronb(a)mpl.net | Meridian Partners Limited. We Simply Do More. http://www.mpl.net `------------------------------------------------------------------

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OPERATIONAL Question - Spamblock protocol
by Karl Denninger 19 Nov '97

19 Nov '97

Hi folks, I have an actual, no-bullshit operational opinion question relating to spamming and spamblocking :-) I'm working on the "intelligent bounce" software here for our spamblocker. Right now we don't support bounces for spamblocked messages, for the reason that the headers are often forged and thus the cycles to do this are wasted (or annoying the wrong person). Also, queueing the bounce back through Sendmail is usually a *bad* thing to do, because sendmail is way to aggressive in trying to deliver mail when you really want to make one pass at it and then give up. So I'm having the spamblocker dump the spam into a different place, where I then pick it up and post-process it to try to send the bounces back. The problem is the algorythm. My options appear to be: 1) Go to the "From" line WITHOUT MX resolution, and deliver there. If it fails, go to the relay which connected to us and send to {postmaster|abuse}. Advantages: We try to hit the exact machine the mail claims to be from. There's a good chance that if it DOES have an SMTP listener on it we'll get back a good reply to the RCPT TO command (either positive or negative). Disadvantages: Many sites don't run SMTP listeners on their machines which resolve to the domain name in the headers, and some don't even HAVE such a machine mapped with an "A" record to send to. This will send to abuse and postmaster where a real person might be reachable otherwise. 2) Go to the From line WITH MX resolution. I've already figured out that hitting secondary MXs is a bad idea, for the simple reason that most of them will say "220" to anything in the domain they're secondarying for, and what you REALLY want is to get back 400 or 500 errors if the username is forged (as it frequently is) so you can then hit the relay abuse address INSTEAD. Advantages: This follows most closely the real Internet standards practice. Its still not 100% complient, but again, we don't care if we're "wrong" in the area of failing to deliver one of these bounces. Disadvantages: The lookup time is non-trivial, and if the FROM line is forged you're going to harass the wrong person with the bounce. The second problem is particularly severe, since a "bad guy" can now pick on someone like "President(a)whitehouse.gov" and you're going to send the bounces to Mr. Clinton. Once its figured out what you're doing, now these spammers have a nice denial-of-service attack they can launch. This is already being done to some extent, and I'm not sure that its a good idea to give them more fuel. 3) Screw the From line and hit the relay site directly; try to deliver to the user there, and if it fails then hit abuse and postmaster instead. Don't bother trying to look up the From line on the premise that its forged anyway. Advantages: The relay site either has an SMTP server on it or it does not. If it does, then you just got to someone who SHOULD be able to put a stop to it. If it does not, then you're wasting your time ANYWAY, but you probably know about it almost immediately when it comes back with an RST to your SYN. If its some jerk on a dialup dynamic address account you'll probably time out (unless someone else is on the IP number now, in which case you get an RST) but again, its reasonably fast. Disadvantages: The user who sent the spam will frequently not get notified. If your spamfilter blocks a legitimate user, you may never get notification to that person using this method. In any case, if I fail to deliver the bounce on the first attempt I'm going to ditch it and NOT retry. Its not a big deal from my point of view if you don't get back every one of the 452,223 spams you send me - - if I return 450,000 of them that's enough :-) The intent here is to do the following: 1) Alert the real sender if we can reasonably reach the person. 2) Alert the relay owner if they were relayed through without knowing about it (and pressure them to fix it - pronto!) 3) If we can't do either right away, toss the bounce on the floor on the premise that its better to give up than keep screwing around and clog up the pipeline. What do the rest of you here think? Option (1) doesn't look very sound; the fight right now is between (2) and (3). -- -- Karl Denninger (karl(a)MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex support on ALL modems Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost

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