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Re: Geographic v. topological address allocation
by Sean M. Doran 21 Nov '97

21 Nov '97

Sean Donelan <SEAN(a)SDG.DRA.COM> writes: > What I was trying to postulate, unsuccessfully, there is no such > thing as an universal, optimal hierarchical addressing scheme. I > thought I had chosen examples from the opposite ends of the spectrum. > I guess I wasn't extreme enough in my examples. Perhaps I should > have used the ISBN hierarchy, a combination of language group, country > and publisher prefix. I'm going to publish a million books, so I > should get a 'big' publishers prefix. You are confusing transport address (describing a location in a topology) with an object name (a book, a computer, a process running on a computer). An object name like an ISBN does not need to be hierarchical because they do not describe discrete locations. Introducing hierarchy improves managability and efficiency of databasing. Many hierarchies can be imposed on object names. IPv4 addresses and anything like them need to be hierarchical in sufficiently large networks because they do describe the location of one or more objects, and because flat addresses are known not to scale in large networks. Hierarchical routing is the only known means of scaling IP addresses as they exist now, and therefore the only hierarchy that can be imposed on IP addresses is strictly topological. The canonical object-describing database that is the roughly the analogue of the ISBN database is the DNS. (I hate analogies I hate analogies I hate analogies please don't use them). The DNS is also manifestly hiearchical, and that hierarchy introduced efficiency compared to the former flat ARPA namespace. Note that the DNS works with suffixes rather than prefixes, which is a cosmetic difference unless one is interested in doing binary sorts or tree-based searces, and that the DNS is variable-length, which is not a cosmetic difference from the ISBN. If you are a big organization and plan to have lots of objects you need a sufficient swathe of DNS names to describe them all. These in turn should resolve into LOCATORS which describe where in the Internet topology (as opposed to the corporate topology or the geographical topology) the objects can be reached. For example, one hierarchy of Internet object names is clock.org. Although cesium.clock.org and solar.clock.org are siblings in that hierarchy, they have very different IP addresses because they are located in different parts of the Internet topology. They should NOT have the same IP prefix as any attempt at that would introduce unnecessary inefficiency into the routing system. Remember: at each level of naming there can be different and completely disjoint hierarchies. There are scalability implications in all of them, most notably when the names used have size limits or are distributed non-hierarchically (like ethernet addresses or the COM domain). However, the important thing is that when a name is used as a LOCATOR in a topology, in order to be scalable that name must be related to that topology and in large networks must lend itself to aggregation in order to reduce the amount of information needed to have that locator be used throughout the network. Sean.

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Re: Proper procedure to change route advertisement
by tonyh＠noc.cbn.net.id 21 Nov '97

21 Nov '97

Thank you all for the help from ANS, MCI, BBN people. The trafic start flowing to/from ANS network. To recap my correspondense to them: the proper way to change route advertisement from /20 to /19: first add route object /19 to RADB advertise the new route /19 wait until it is propagated to the whole internet ( 3 days ) delete the old route object /20 stop advertise the old route /20 by doing this there should be minimal unreachable network. any comment, suggestion ? Thank you again for your help. Tony S. Hariman http://www.tsh.or.id Tel: +62(21)574-2488 Fax: +62(21)574-2481

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Re: Anyone planning to peer with these guys ?
by Tony Li 21 Nov '97

21 Nov '97

> The "Spam King," Sanford Wallace, and Walt Rines > Have incorporated their new bulk-email friendly backbone network This is great. Finally, just what we wanted. All of it gone with a single AS path filter.... Just let us know which one. ;-) Tony

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Re: Netflow IP accounting and IP protocol numbers
by brett watson 20 Nov '97

20 Nov '97

we complained about having to populate this info and i believe the netflow folks will release a fully populated protocols/ports file in v2.0 which is about 30 days away from release, i think. there will always be things like traceroute that use very high port numbers and increment them along the path, or custom aplications so you'll always have fairly large numbers of "other". at least that's been our experience. -brett > On Thu 20 Nov, steven hessing wrote: > > The other day we started using Cisco netflow accounting software > > together with IP flow export feature of recent Cisco IOS versions. > > > > What we found was that although we put a lot of protocols in the > > nfknown.protocols file of the accounting software (everywthing we > > could find in the /etc/services file of Solaris and Linux), there > > is still a lot of traffic under TCP-Other and UDP-Other. This > > indicated that traffic is going over our network using ports that > > the software doesn't know about. > > > > This could for example be Real-audio, Cuseeme, Pointcast, Backweb > > etc traffic. Unfortunately, I don't have a list of these newer > > protocols together with their port numbers. Has anyone compiled > > such a list? There's the Assigned numbers RFC but the last version > > of it is RFC 1700 of October 1994. > > Try, > > ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/iana/assignments/port-numbers > > It doesn't give a date it was last updated - but the list is bloody > long so should do you ;-) > > Cheers, > > aid > > -- > Adrian J Bool | mailto:aid@u-net.net > Network Operations | http://www.noc.u-net.net/ > U-NET Ltd, UK | tel://44.1925.484461/ >

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Proper procedure to change route advertisement
by tonyh＠noc.cbn.net.id 20 Nov '97

20 Nov '97

Hi, What is the proper procedure to change route advertisement for example from /20 to /19 ? Currently I just update radb and mci routing database. Also I send email to our upstream provider about the change. But now we have some connectivity problem with ANS and ANS customer. Any hint would be appreciated. Thanks. Tony S. Hariman http://www.tsh.or.id Tel: +62(21)574-2488 Fax: +62(21)574-2481

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need assistance at PAIX for maewest connect
by andrew khoo 20 Nov '97

20 Nov '97

we need about 10mbps off someone's extended fddi connection to maewest at PAIX for about two weeks. we do not need transit, just temporary carriage from a peer of ours in maewest to PAIX until their PAIX connection comes up. anyone with excess capacity we can "borrow" for that time? direct replies please.

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ISP.au
by andrew khoo 20 Nov '97

20 Nov '97

[apologies for the multiple copies of this that you might receive] --- Media Release (FOR RELEASE 21-Nov-97) Ourworld Global Network is proud to announce ISP.au, the first conference specifically focused on ISPs (Internet Service Providers) in Australia. This will be held in Sydney, Australia on December 12th to 14th, 1997. ISP.au will be a 3 day conference on a seminar/tutorial basis with a focus on both the business and network operations sides of operating ISPs. Speakers include leading technologists and business people in the ISP business in Australia and USA. Attendees will also include senior and executive management of ISPs in the Asia-Pacific region. The seminars will cover a series of topics including global developments in the ISP marketplace; regulatory issues affecting Australian ISPs; ISP industry associations; issues relating to APNIC and DNS registries; and various other issues relating to business development of ISPs. The tutorial series includes sessions on basic and advanced network operations held by routing gurus Avi Freedman (netaxs) and Justin Newton (priori, ex-erols); successful ISP marketing by Jesse Caulfield; and tips on working with APNIC held by David "Randy" Conrad, Director-General of APNIC. A highlight of ISP.au is a harbour cruise and dinner with bottomless drinks on the evening of Friday (Dec 12th) which will promote networking amongst ISPs and other parties in the industry. There are also other opportunities for networking during the conference, in particular in the meeting breakout room. The breakout room is be equipped with PCs with Internet connectivity. Internet connectivity is also provided in the main seminar meeting room via 10baseT switches (static IPs supplied if required) and 220VAC is provided. ISP.au was made possible by the generous sponsorship of Cisco Systems and Ourworld Global Network, but there will be no product pitches at this conference as it is intended to present an opportunity for ISPs in Australia to get together and to learn more about the unique marketplace that ISPs are in. --- A copy of the draft agenda and a registration form can be obtained by sending email to isp-au(a)aussie.net. This is an auto-responder that will return via email a copy of both the draft agenda and registration form. http://www.aussie.net/isp-au/ should be up and running by November 22nd. Further details can also be obtained from Rachael Stead or Rob Bridger via telephone to +61-2-9223-2777.

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Palo-Alto Dallas routing problem
by Tony Torzillo 20 Nov '97

20 Nov '97

I've just been told by someone at the BBNPlanet NOC that all BBNPlanet routes in the Palo-Alto and Dallas area are effected by a routing problem that originated in Dallas. As a result, we are unable to reach stanford.edu. BBNPlanet ticket number is 163151.

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Re:
by r.a. martin 20 Nov '97

20 Nov '97

I have no idea why I received this - I didn't unsub. I also received a "welcome to nanog message", as if I had just subscribed (I've been subscribed for a long time). This all occurred while I was away so am just responding (as per instructions below) now. randim(a)voicenet.com At 07:19 PM 11/17/97 -0600, you wrote: > 32760 nanog(a)merit.edu >nanog(a)merit.edu > >You have been removed from the list. > >If this wasn't your intention or you are having problems getting yourself >unsubscribed, reply to this mail now (quoting it entirely (for diagnostic >purposes), and of course adding any comments you see fit). > >Transcript of unsubscription request follows: >-- >>From nanog(a)merit.edu Mon Nov 17 19:19:53 1997 >>Received: from adnc.com (hera.adnc.com [205.216.138.127]) by mozart.lib.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.6.4) with SMTP id TAA21919 for marilyn-request(a)mozart.lib.uchicago.edu; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:19:25 -0600 >>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:19:25 -0600 >>From: nanog(a)merit.edu >>Message-Id: <199711180119.TAA21919(a)mozart.lib.uchicago.edu> >> >>unsub nanog(a)merit.edu >> > > --------------------------------- randim(a)voicenet.com http://www.voicenet.com/~randim/ ---------------------------------

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Re: hmm..
by dean＠av8.com 20 Nov '97

20 Nov '97

I get grumpy when the anti-spammers start exaggerating or start screwing up other peoples systems, on purpose or not. Its kind of like a bar fight that one is not really involved in. I'm upset that they are spilling my beer. At 12:33 AM 11/19/97, Barry Shein wrote: >Ah, the "just lie back and enjoy it" point of view...(or at least "if >it comes off in the shower it can't be that bad".) Spam comes off. I think their unix sysadmins probably have knowledge and experience. Experience with T3 and large mail and news systems is valuable, regardless. But damaging other peoples computers doesn't come off quite so easily. I think breaking spammers networks and computers is much worse. People can go to jail if they are caught doing that on purpose. Such activities are truly morally confused. >At any rate, this is all orthogonal to the point. If a spammer was >subscribing nanog to other lists just because he didn't like the >anti-spam discusson on this list that would be wrong, right? Of course its wrong. Its just as bad as the bounce scripts that some people are making. Do you agree these are wrong too? >Yes, keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out of >your head. A good idea for all. I think people who risk their careers and livelihood to damage a spammer network have clearly let their brains fall out. >Spammers steal enormous $$$ from ISPs, and doubly so when their >customers complain about it incessantly and expect some sort of >answer, and spammers add nothing. Regarding user complaints-- You would get a lot less if you didn't promise they wouldn't get spam. You bring the complaint problem on yourself. Set a policy statement that users should forward illegal emails to the postal inspector or the FBI. 'Unwanted email should be deleted. Do not contact operations to report unwanted or illegal email.' Have users use filtering software, and then the cost comes down to much less than 20.017 cents times 10 million users or less than 2.01 million dollars in a 3 Billion dollar a year market. The cost is still much less than one half of one percent of the market. (0.006) Note that if you don't keep spam, it doesn't even cost 20 cents per user. Truly not a big deal. Gigabytes is not a big number in a thousands or millions of terabytes world. Enormous indeed. I have yet to hear anyone declare bankruptcy because of spam. IRC adds nothing. Zip. Except lining to the pockets of IRC providers. Spam adds something very small. At least I might get a good deal on toner cartridges, if I wade through a bunch of garbage. Its not much but its still more than IRC. Some people go through their junk mail and clip coupons. I don't think its worth 30 minutes of my time to get a $1.95 in savings at the supermarket. And even if I throw it out, I still have to wait in line behind someone trying to go through their coupons. And despite 60 Billion dollars a year in bulk mail, people don't think thats theft. "But dammit, their stealing my time!!" I spend more time waiting in line at the supermarket than I do refiling spam. I guess coupons should be banned too. And Sunday drivers. >If I want to offer a service such as, eg, IRC, for money, that's my >business. If a spammer is trying to ram his business down me and my >customer's throat by sending, literally, gigabytes of unsolicited >email then that's a real problem, that's theft. You have absolutely no >right to make the comparison you make, it's morally confused. So if *you* make money on it, its ok. But if someone else make money on something that doesn't benefit you, it scum. I don't buy it. IRC affects ones ability to communicate with other systems on the internet. People are paying big bucks for an internet connection that is essentially "degraded" due to IRC. Replace IRC with any of a dozen other protocols that go across the backbone that aren't truly "useful". I pick on IRC because it really annoyed me back when the backbone was small, and I had a cross country internet project. I found the backbone was slow due to a lot of IRC traffic. I've gotten over it. Everyone sending packets paid their own way. And its a lot faster because places like The World cropped up and charged users for the privelege of wasting time on IRC, and then bought larger connections which in turn financed bigger backbone facilities. I think that you're just upset that the goose laying the golden egg occasionally takes a dump. Here are better comparisons: What if my users waste *my* bandwidth connecting to *your* IRC server from *my* dialin lines? You encourage your IRC users to get flat rate dialin service from me. That causes my "low actual use" cost model to fail, and my costs go up. Are you stealing my dialin resources? I think a reasonable person would say I can't complain about the economics of flatrate services. How about someone sending a lot of "talk" requests to your users? Suppose your users complain, the talk requests take up some small bandwidth. Is anything being stolen? I don't think so. I think if your users truly can't accept spam, and your users truly don't take up any internet resources, then you should disconnect from the internet. But since you take up internet resources that spammers don't use, you can't complain that spammers likewise take up some resources. They paid for their connections. They are entitled to service. There is no requirement on the usefulness to others. Indeed, such a requirement by a public utility (AGIS?, UUnet? MCI? BBN?) might be a violation of civil law. "Sorry, you can't have phone service because we don't think you telemarketers have a useful purpose and you annoy some people". --Dean ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Plain Aviation, Inc dean(a)av8.com LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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