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Re: Network for Sale
by John Fraizer 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

To EVERYONE who has contacted me offlist regarding my being so hard on Jay: If this company were truely revelational, my WIFE would have told me about it and I would not have ready about them for the first time on NANOG. They are letting their marketing monkeys run wild, duping unknowing customers into thinking they're getting something better than ANY other provider can give them. By design, their network depends on BGP4 because they depend on TRANSIT from other providers. If they had peering relationships with "God and everybody", "Everywhere", perhaps their new, fangled technology would have some benefit. As it stands, from what I can grep from their "marketing s^&#%&t".....er.....website, they have NOTHING to offer that SAVVIS/INTERNAP/(every other like-type provider) have to offer besides perhaps the fact that their network will be faster until they inevitably grow beyone capacity at which time, their marketing types will announce their new "OC-10,1000" network buildout with an estimated turnup date of 1/1/3000. Beyond that, I'm _REALLY_ sick of people pissing and moaning about NAPS being congestion points. If you're so tired of the exchange point being slow, INVEST IN MAKING IT FASTER!!!!! It's _NOT_ that hard. It's to _YOUR_ benefit. Moral of the mini-tangent: It's not the NAP, it's the OPERATOR. If they're too greedy to invest in infrastructure, you should investigate alternatives, At the same time, those of you with pipes trying to run at 150% to the exchange points should be ashamed! Someone shoot me when money becomes more important to me than the performance of my network. So, basically, what we're looking at is "Same s%^t, different company name." Jay: _PLEASE_ show different. I'll gladly be shown to be wrong. I'm not holding my breath though. --- John Fraizer EnterZone, Inc

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Re: Beer and Gear surprise
by richb＠pioneer.ci.net 22 Feb '01

22 Feb '01

> Did I miss some discussion about the Beer and Gear surprise? I, personally, > feel somewhat cheated that there was no "gear" available from the vendors in > attendance. > > I did not spend money to come out to Atlanta to get hit upon by vendors. > ... I don't even see the point of continuing to have the the Beer > and Gear part. I have the same opinion. Having recently left the ISP competitive rat-race to join the equipment rat-race, I attended as one of the vendor sponsors. We followed all the rules to avoid "hitting" on anyone, but it was only after we committed to the sponsorship that we learned we couldn't give out "gear" to improve name recognition. Why is the event called "beer 'n gear" if I can't hand out T shirts and schwag? Like the above writer, I always looked forward to collecting a drawerful of T shirts and trivia at past NANOG beer 'n gears. Data sheets and business cards are kinda boring. Will I need to wear a tie next time? ;-) -rich

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Re: Beer and Gear surprise
by Ukyo Kuonji 21 Feb '01

21 Feb '01

I will accept your word that people were leaving before the end, however I know that the beer and gear didn't start early, and I got whatever there was to get, and even a little extra from a couple vendors. There seemed to have been no shortage that would have required people to get there early. At 21, the doors to beer and gear were not opened until 5:30. I would have to propose that if there is a problem with people leaving early to go to beer and gear, just close the doors to the beer and gear until the designated start time. I believe that the reason why people left the IXP panel in DC was that it was a pretty darn boring panel. You tend to get people drifting after the 3rd presenter anyway, and although I stayed for the whole thing, I certainly was starting to fall asleep. This may have been a problem in Atlanta with the VPN panel as well. After the 3rd presentation people tent to shut down. Better to keep each presentaation short, and just spark more questions than put everyone to sleep. --- Opinions in this email are the personal opinions of the author and are not associated with author's employer. This email account is a not the regular email account of the author and is being used for the protection of the employer. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Stephen Stuart <stuart(a)mfnx.net> To: "Ukyo Kuonji" <kawaii_iinazuke(a)hotmail.com> CC: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Beer and Gear surprise Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:33:54 -0800 > I was at NANOG 20, and I seem to remember that the technical talks were over > a good 20-30 minutes before Beer and Gear. If people were leaving the talks > early, I'm sure it was not the fault of the vendors. I certainly don't > think that people should have been offended by it. The vendors set up early and left their stuff unattended. The supply of particular trinket was pretty much exhausted by people leaving the talks 20-30 minutes early to ensure their possession of that NANOG's "must-have" trinket. > As far as being "sexist", I know more women that wear boxers than men. The boxers were not the issue, despite rumor to the contrary. Stephen _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

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Re: Network for Sale
by Paul A Vixie 21 Feb '01

21 Feb '01

> >no, that is not the problem. oh i admit that ping time jitter is ~random. > >but even if it weren't, RTT doesn't drive performance, (bw*delay)-loss does. > > And how does "delay" differ from RTT, except for the obvious constant > factor? my point wasn't that rtt didn't matter but that bandwidth and loss also matter. so does filesize. for a 2MB GIF i'd rather have a 900ms * 622Mb/s (satellite?) link. for a 2K frame i'd rather have a 60ms * 56K link. using RTT by itself as a performance predictor is just silly. same for aspath length. the only way to know if performance will differ between server/proxy A vs B when talking to client C is to serve from both and see what the tcp window does and what the total bytes/sec are (if the file is long enough for those to matter.) the data then decays rapidly since congestion and routing will change after measurement.

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Re: Network for Sale
by Paul A Vixie 21 Feb '01

21 Feb '01

>> Oh god, I hope not. RTT has never been an accurate predictor of end-to-end >> performance. (Just ask anyone who bought into ping-based global server load >> balancing.) ASPATH length is almost as bad (as a predictor) as RTT. > > well, it's the way icmp_echo is handeld in some vendor routers and > sometime also the poor implementation of an IP stack on the echoing > device which is a problem. no, that is not the problem. oh i admit that ping time jitter is ~random. but even if it weren't, RTT doesn't drive performance, (bw*delay)-loss does.

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Re: Network for Sale
by Richard A. Steenbergen 21 Feb '01

21 Feb '01

On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:28:20PM -0800, Paul A Vixie wrote: > > >> Oh god, I hope not. RTT has never been an accurate predictor of end-to-end > >> performance. (Just ask anyone who bought into ping-based global server load > >> balancing.) ASPATH length is almost as bad (as a predictor) as RTT. > > > > well, it's the way icmp_echo is handeld in some vendor routers and > > sometime also the poor implementation of an IP stack on the echoing > > device which is a problem. > > no, that is not the problem. oh i admit that ping time jitter is > ~random. but even if it weren't, RTT doesn't drive performance, > (bw*delay)-loss does. Delay (in non-obscene amounts) can be overcome, loss cannot. Loss is especially bad when you are overcoming delay with a large window of packets inflight, even more so without SACK. Designing a network to please the "traceroute happy" customer will probably not make anything better by itself. Assuming your goal is to actually push packets, loss should be eliminated first before RTT becomes an issue. Lack of bandwidth is the cause, loss is the symptom. This is of course assuming that TCP thruput is your goal, which may be completely not the case. -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras(a)e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)

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Re: Beer and Gear surprise
by Ukyo Kuonji 21 Feb '01

21 Feb '01

I was at NANOG 20, and I seem to remember that the technical talks were over a good 20-30 minutes before Beer and Gear. If people were leaving the talks early, I'm sure it was not the fault of the vendors. I certainly don't think that people should have been offended by it. As far as being "sexist", I know more women that wear boxers than men. I don't see this as being a discrimination or sexist action. It was intended as a joke by Cisco, and I thought it was a pretty good joke. I am still amazed how thin skinned people in the US can be, even though I've lived here all my life. I don't want anyone to think that I didn't enjoy the meeting. I certainly did enjoy it. I even learned a few new things, and got a lot of good validation for things I were already thinking about. Yes, this is the real reason we all go to NANOG, and the reason we read the mailing list. I feel that the vendors were cheated a little. I saw a lot of attendees in the beer and gear that were talking amongst themselves and ignoring the vendors. At least with a few freebees, the vendors have a chance to attract a few of those people. I AM a little concerned if this was a decision made by Merit. Last I knew, this was a NANOG meeting, not a Merit meeting. I do not believe that Merit should be making a decision of this nature without the direct input of the NANOG membership. If I missed this in October or November, I apologize. --- Opinions in this email are the personal opinions of the author and are not associated with author's employer. This email account is a not the regular email account of the author and is being used for the protection of the employer. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Stephen Stuart <stuart(a)mfnx.net> To: Adam Rothschild <asr(a)latency.net> CC: Ukyo Kuonji <kawaii_iinazuke(a)hotmail.com>, nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Beer and Gear surprise Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:43:34 -0800 > <rumor> > > Sponsors were specifically asked _not_ to give out clothing, as the > Cisco boxer shorts distributed at NANOG 20 were somehow deemed > offensive and discriminatory. > > </rumor> <fact> At NANOG 20, there was a mad rush from the meeting room before technical talks were over for the day to get to the Beer and Gear to suck up all the vendor trinkets. This was perceived as being astoundingly disrespectful to the people who take the time to put together a presentation and deliver it. </fact> Stephen _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

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RE: RE: Monitoring/Trending Software -- Which Package(s) do y
by Berger, Gary 21 Feb '01

21 Feb '01

NNM is a great framework tool ( something other point tools plug into) but its data collection engine is lousy. You are better off with mrtg and rrd as a back in.. -----Original Message----- From: CARL P HIRSCH [mailto:CARL.P.HIRSCH@slchicago.infonet.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 6:30 AM Cc: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re:RE: Monitoring/Trending Software -- Which Package(s) do y Just curious, Would HP's Openview Network Node Manager be suitable for this application? I evaluated NNM some time ago but found it rather bloated and I figured that it would really only be truly useful in an HP-UX environment where NNM could integrate with all the other Openview components. One thing I found appealing is that NNM sits on an Oracle backend (according to the marketroids, anyhow), meaning that you could run reports till the cows came home. I've always been told that trend analysis is where OpenView Network Node Manager shines. Plus, it's Fully Buzzword Compliant. Every IT manager's eyes light up when they hear "OpenView", but is it really useful in a real-world scenario? For network monitoring, I've actually grown to really like IpSwitch Software's WhatsUp Gold. I wrote it off for a long time but grudgingly tried it out during a time crunch and was pretty impressed. It's bare-bones, and NT-only, but it's so durn easy to get up and running with it in a pinch. It handles ICMP, SNMP, and RMON with threshold alerts. I'm thinking it supports a wide variety of MIBs. I found its reporting a bit lacking, though. It probably would be more or less useless for trend analysis. I'm sure I'd get more out of MRTG is I was more comfortable with Perl. One of my projects has been to investigate monitoring/trending solutions under Linux/*BSD. Apparently somebody just created a Debian distribution for net telemetry collection. I haven't found much under Linux for RMON yet, and there certainly doesn't appear to be anything like a free full-featured monitoring/trending suite out there. Any suggestions? -carl hirsch network analyst sargent & lundy llc chicago 60603 ____________________Reply Separator____________________ Subject: RE: Monitoring/Trending Software -- Which Package(s) do you Author: owner-nanog-outgoing(a)merit.edu Date: 2/21/01 9:45 AM Actually you probably need to look at VitalNet.. This is a competing product to Concorde NetHealth... -----Original Message----- From: John Starta [mailto:john@starta.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 9:23 PM To: Lee Watterworth Lucent's VitalSuite (either SP or Enterprise) software is definitely worth a look. You can find detailed information about it on their web site: http://www.lucentnps.com/software/ jas At 05:44 PM 2/20/01 -0500, Lee Watterworth wrote: >I have been handed the task of finding a monitoring/trending package for >our network and systems. > >I will be looking at the package's collection mechanism for flexibility >(snmp gets, traps, rmon), and the variety/configurability of the reports >it can produce. The package should be able to provide (configurable) >alerts when threshholds are met/surpassed. > >I have been evaluating Concord's eHealth Suite, and would like to evaluate >other options before I commit to a particular package. > >Any feedback would be great. > >-Lee.

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Re: Beer and Gear surprise
by Ukyo Kuonji 21 Feb '01

21 Feb '01

I certainly enjoyed The Juniper booth at NANOG 20. I feel that it is important for vendors to bring some of their equipment to the meeting and especially think it's neat if the equipment is doing something. I feel fortunate enough to work for a company that will fly me the vendor HQ to get an in-depth look at the hardware we are doing evaluation on, but not every company is as flush as mine, and not everyone gets the same luxuries. Having the equipment at a meeting like nanog is a good place to get to the people that will actually see and use the equipment. The other "cons" are more apt to draw people that fulfill other purposes. I certainly like to discuss the vendor's boxes, and tend to do so at the meetings, but it would be nice to walk away with a pen, or screwdriver or shirt. It's a benefit to the vendor as well. Not only do people have to get close enough to grab a shirt, they also end up wearing the shirt and keeps the vendor on their mind. I certainly want to thank all the vendors that lugged their boxes to NANOG for us to look at. It IS hard work, but it is good to have something physical to point at when talking about it. --- Opinions in this email are the personal opinions of the author and are not associated with author's employer. This email account is a not the regular email account of the author and is being used for the protection of the employer. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Aviva Garrett <aviva(a)juniper.net> To: "Ukyo Kuonji" <kawaii_iinazuke(a)hotmail.com> CC: nanog(a)merit.edu, aviva(a)juniper.net Subject: Re: Beer and Gear surprise Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:43:53 -0800 In message <F29SkPbbCRRSAKhcRA20001f363(a)hotmail.com>you write: > > Did I miss some discussion about the Beer and Gear surprise? I, personally, > feel somewhat cheated that there was no "gear" available from the vendors in > attendance. > We brought a lot of gear at the last NANOG, and that was a lot of work. Routers, even little ones, are heavy and don't make good carry-on luggage. If people think it's useful for us to bring some gear every meeting or every other meeting, let me know privately what you might like to see in the way of boxes and PICs and maybe engineering folk, and I'll see what I can dig up. On the issue of freebies, I don't know whether people left the talks early at NANOG 20 or not, because I was busy setting up Beer 'n Gear, but I did make sure to bring 550 of the important freebies (t-shirts). Thanks, ..Aviva ---------------------- Aviva Garrett Technical Publications Juniper Networks, Inc. (408) 745-2077 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

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Re: Beer and Gear surprise
by Aviva Garrett 21 Feb '01

21 Feb '01

In message <F29SkPbbCRRSAKhcRA20001f363(a)hotmail.com>you write: > > Did I miss some discussion about the Beer and Gear surprise? I, personally, > feel somewhat cheated that there was no "gear" available from the vendors in > attendance. > We brought a lot of gear at the last NANOG, and that was a lot of work. Routers, even little ones, are heavy and don't make good carry-on luggage. If people think it's useful for us to bring some gear every meeting or every other meeting, let me know privately what you might like to see in the way of boxes and PICs and maybe engineering folk, and I'll see what I can dig up. On the issue of freebies, I don't know whether people left the talks early at NANOG 20 or not, because I was busy setting up Beer 'n Gear, but I did make sure to bring 550 of the important freebies (t-shirts). Thanks, ..Aviva ---------------------- Aviva Garrett Technical Publications Juniper Networks, Inc. (408) 745-2077

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