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RE: Who is announcing bogons?
by McBurnett, Jim 29 Apr '03

29 Apr '03

Sean, I am not a BGP Guru by any means but as I see it: there are more than 25 /8 that should not be routed at all... And they are easily summarized.. some can be /6 or less... I never tried that.. But should work.... If I go to AT&T and ask for a list of what should be routed, That will be a huge list and not summarizeable. Although there are routers on the market that have massive amounts of RAM and can handle oodles of routes, and some ISP's may want to do this. BUT the average net user can easily take a BGP Feed of say 25 /8 and 50 /16 or so and /dev null all is fine. Using my example of the blockage of APNIC /8s.. SPAM SPAM GONE Away..... So can many other problems... (I ACL'd 4 /8 from APNIC on a Mail server and lost 60-70 % of the inbound SPAM... Nice test, Syslog didn't like it none.....) To me Rob provides a great service, which I am ashamed to say, I am falling down to implement... If I could /dev null some of the ole task list I would do it now.... Anyway, JMHO.... Jim >-----Original Message----- >From: Sean Donelan [mailto:sean@donelan.com] >Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 9:16 PM >To: nanog(a)merit.edu >Subject: Who is announcing bogons? > > > >On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Rob Thomas wrote: >> ] Rob, on the other hand, has gained a lot of trust in maintaining >> ] a highly accurate list. >> Thanks very much. :) I can't accept all the credit though. > My thanks >> go out to all the members of Team Cymru. > >Unfortunately, no good deed goes unpunished. Jon Postel did a great >job maintaining the list of IP addresses. Paul Vixie did a great job >with the first Real-Time Blackhole List. But people move on, >and things >change. > >But my real question is why are negative bogon lists necessary? If you >ask providers, they all say they implement positive prefix list filters >on all their customers. So who is injecting the bogons? And >why do they >still have a network connection? > >Should we be spending time teaching people how to do positive prefix >filters, or trying to explain to them why the negative prefix filter >the last network administrator installed 2 years ago is out of date. > >What is the cross-over point? When does the number of lines in a bogon >list become larger than the positive prefix filter? If you >are going to >list every sub-allocation which isn't routed, why not just list the >allocations which should be routed? > > >

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RE: Class "B" IP BLOCK
by Mark Segal 29 Apr '03

29 Apr '03

> I understand ARIN has made it difficult to sell IP addresses. > We have fixed > this problem by creating a corporation whose only asset is > the block of IP > addresses. How do you show effective utilization after the transfer? Its not just the assets.. It is also the customer base. mark -- Mark Segal Director, Data Services Futureway Communications Inc. Tel: (905)326-1570

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IP Multicast Monitoring Tools
by Ben Hays 29 Apr '03

29 Apr '03

Hi- Im starting to work on a project involving IP Multicast, source specific MACs and IGMPv3 and don't have a way to manage it. Any suggestions for some software that would or could do the trick? TIA Ben

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Re: Get as much IP space as you ever dreamed of, was: Re: Looking to buy IPv4 addresses from class C swamp
by Michael.Dillon＠radianz.com 29 Apr '03

29 Apr '03

>Thus spake "Daniel Golding" <dgold(a)FDFNet.Net> >> ARIN needs to repo any space that has [not] been advertised for a >> reasonable length of time, and reissue it. >So you're claiming that ARIN should revoke any allocations, including those >made before it came into existence, simply because the addresses aren't in >the global tables? Life's not that simple. First of all, there is a long-standing agreement that one can legitimately receive IPv4 address allocations even if the addresses are not to be used on the public Internet. Therefore it is unreasonable to use the fact that an address block is not announced to justify revocation. IPv4 addresses are allocated to organization who need to use globally unique IPv4 addresses. On the other hand, if an RIR is unable to verify contact information for an allocated netblock, then they should remove the existing bad contact information and tag the block in some standard way in the whois directory that they publish. Those who wish to may use this standard tag to add a block to their filters and disallow its use on their network. Of course, this would be easier if the RIRs would all publish their whois directories using the IETF standard directory protocol (LDAP) because then anyone could query for all blocks with this standard tag without having to suck down a copy of all of the RIR databases and parse it themselves. I really don't think it is productive to look at this as a revocation issue. It's really an issue of the RIRs maintaining an accurate database of contact information and then providing full disclosure of that information. Currently, if the RIRs are unable to contact an netblock holder, nobody knows about it. We don't even know if they have tried because the antiquated whois directory systems in place today make it hard for them to add additional attributes and hard for us to query additional attributes. The fact is that when an RIR allocates address space, there is a transfer of responsibility over the use of that address space. The public has a right to know who is taking responsibility for use of every block of IPv4 addresses. ISPs can then make their own routing and filtering decisions using that data if they choose to. This doesn't mean that the RIRs or ISPs should publish contact information about every DSL customer using a /30. In fact, the RIRs and ISPs should be publishing less information in their public whois directories, not more. The key factor here is responsibility. Sometimes when a block of IP space is allocated or assigned, the recipient is willing and *ABLE* to take public responsibility for the use and abuse of that space. In that case, their contact info should go in the public whois directory. But when the responsibility is not delegated to the recipient then there should be nothing in the public whois directory. If we had a clean and complete directory mapping the organizations repsonsible for every part of the IPv4 address space then things like revocation would simply be a non-issue because ISPs would have the information that they need to make their own independent decisions about routing and filtering. The RIRs should never be an enforcement agency however they should pay more attention to being an authoritative source of accurate and complete data. The whole RIR system today is mired in the past. They need to pull their socks up, cooperate more, clean their databases up, put the right information in their databases, and use the standard protocols that the IETF has already designed for directory service rather than wasting time on reinventing the wheel again. --Michael Dillon

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Re: Get as much IP space as you ever dreamed of, was: Re: Looking to buy IPv4 addresses from class C swamp
by Michael.Dillon＠radianz.com 29 Apr '03

29 Apr '03

>> d) globally unique addresses for each participant using RIRs >d) is basically having the Internet community pay - both in real money >for staffing at RIRs and in scarce IP address space - for no benefit in >return at all for a function that those N companies should have an >institution perform for them via c). My company uses d) and we pay full ARIN fees at the highest level since our ARIN allocations falls into the largest fee slot. So your comment is simply not true in this case. --Michael Dillon

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Re: Get as much IP space as you ever dreamed of, was: Re: Looking to buy IPv4 addresses from class C swamp
by Michael.Dillon＠radianz.com 29 Apr '03

29 Apr '03

>> There are companies that connect to thousands of other companies (see the >> financial markets) that require unique addressing between companies with >> non-colliding address ranges. 10.x.x.x doesn't quite cut it. > This is not an acceptable excuse to burn PI space. >There are plenty of other Iana-L available... try using an obscure one. I would be extremely interested if others on the list support this type of address space hijacking. The only public instance of this that I know of is WIANA http://www.wiana.org which has hijacked 1/8. Also, if other organization want to hijack IANA addresses to ensure global uniqueness, I think that it will be necessary to maintain some sort of alternative registry since many of the companies involved may connect their internal networks to more than one network using hijacked address space. It would not work if two organizations hijack the same block. I work for a company that operates a global network connecting companies in the financial services industry and we use registered IP addresses to ensure uniqueness. We have also considered hijacking the 126/8 range however I think I've managed to get that idea sidelined for the foreseeable future. Basically, none of our registered space is announced on the Internet although our network is connected very tenuously to the outer edges of the Internet. Of course, if there is support for address space hijacking, we may have to review our position. --Michael Dillon

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Re: Get as much IP space as you ever dreamed of, was: Re: Looking to buy IPv4 addresses from class C swamp
by Stewart, William C (Bill), RTSLS 29 Apr '03

29 Apr '03

Seems like an obvious case for using IPv6.

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RE: 60 Hudson
by Drew Weaver 29 Apr '03

29 Apr '03

This might explain why fiber net went out of business and sold to cogent?? -Drew -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Meltzer [mailto:jeffrey@villageworld.com] Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 10:32 AM To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: 60 Hudson Quick followup, apparently the current issue i'm having with them is a "bad oc48 card" (again, shocker), and they don't have one in stock, and had to put a "rush order" in for a new one...You'd think a carrier would keep this sort of thing in stock. Went down late yesterday afternoon, and with this being Friday, i'm sure this won't be fixed until late Monday. Use this as an indicator before choosing FiberNet :) Jeff -- Jeffrey Meltzer Network Services Manager ICS/VillageNet 631.218.0700 On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 09:42:22AM -0400, Jeffrey Meltzer wrote: > > As someone who uses FiberNet in 60 Hudson (and ethernet link back to 25 > Broadway) i'd say avoid them like the plague. In the ~6 months that i've > had this circuit (aparently it's provisioned over an OC48), it's gone down > at least 4 times, possibly more, sometimes for upwards of 12 hours at a time > (starts at 10% packet loss, then just keeps growing). Their answer every > times has been "bad OC48 card". I don't know whether that's just the line > they're feeding me (I have a feeling it is), or their hardware vendor is > just garbage, but they don't appear to have the ability to keep this circuit > up for more than 3 weeks at a time. > > At one point they sold us on upgrading it from Ethernet to FastE, we said ok > maybe that will be better. However, they took down the 10M link at around 9pm > on a Friday night, and by 7pm Sunday night they hadn't had the 100M link up > yet so we just told them to forget it... > > Since the circuit is just backup, i've been testing FiberNet as fo late. > Yesterday, after I started seeing packet loss I waited at least 2 hours to > call them, to see if they'd notice the issue themselves. Of course as usual > they didn't. > > I'm fairly sure i'm the only customer they are providing this > service to between 25B and 60H, otherwise for sure they'd know by know > (unless they are dedicating a full OC48 to my 10M link, which would be a > whole other story itself). > > I'm unsure, however, if this is how they provision service inside (suite to > suite) 60 Hudson, it'd be fairly strange if they did, but FiberNet is > turning out to be a fairly strange company. > > ..just my experience :) > > JEFF > > -- > Jeffrey Meltzer > Network Services Manager > ICS/VillageNet > 631-218-0700 > > On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Simon Lockhart wrote: > > > Speaking to Level3, they're saying that the Fibernet suite on the 1st floor > > is the best place for interconnects to other suites in the building.

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RE: Get as much IP space as you ever dreamed of, was: Re: Looking to buy IPv4 addresses from class C swamp
by Temkin, David 29 Apr '03

29 Apr '03

Except it's impossible to know today who you'll need to connect to 2 years from now and know whether or not your space will collide, especially if you're connecting to ~1000 such companies. -----Original Message----- From: Niels Bakker [mailto:niels=nanog@bakker.net] Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 7:11 PM To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: Re: Get as much IP space as you ever dreamed of, was: Re: Looking to buy IPv4 addresses from class C swamp * stephen(a)sprunk.org (Stephen Sprunk) [Tue 29 Apr 2003, 00:50 CEST]: > N companies can have up to N(N-1) interconnections, which requires > either: > a) double NAT, with a single address range for all interconnects > b) no NAT, with a unique address range for each interconnect > c) very careful management of the RFC1918 space such that no two companies > talking have a collision > d) globally unique addresses for each participant using RIRs > > (c) simply doesn't work in reality, (b) is no better than (d), and (a) > is beyond ugly not to mention incompatible with many apps. d) is basically having the Internet community pay - both in real money for staffing at RIRs and in scarce IP address space - for no benefit in return at all for a function that those N companies should have an institution perform for them via c). Regards, -- Niels. IMPORTANT:The information contained in this email and/or its attachments is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by reply and immediately delete this message and all its attachments. Any review, use, reproduction, disclosure or dissemination of this message or any attachment by an unintended recipient is strictly prohibited. Neither this message nor any attachment is intended as or should be construed as an offer, solicitation or recommendation to buy or sell any security or other financial instrument. Neither the sender, his or her employer nor any of their respective affiliates makes any warranties as to the completeness or accuracy of any of the information contained herein or that this message or any of its attachments is free of viruses.

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RE: Get as much IP space as you ever dreamed of, was: Re: Looking to buy IPv4 addresses from class C swamp
by Temkin, David 28 Apr '03

28 Apr '03

What if Company A uses Iana-L space A, and Company uses Space A & B... What then? And don't say NAT - it's not the universal savior. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Irving [mailto:rirving@onecall.net] Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 6:18 PM To: Temkin, David Cc: 'Stephen Sprunk'; Daniel Golding; Kai Schlichting; North American Noise and Off-topic Gripes Subject: Re: Get as much IP space as you ever dreamed of, was: Re: Looking to buy IPv4 addresses from class C swamp Temkin, David wrote: > And something else a lot of people tend to forget - just because space > isn't in the tables doesn't mean it's not in use. True. > > There are companies that connect to thousands of other companies (see > the financial markets) that require unique addressing between > companies with non-colliding address ranges. 10.x.x.x doesn't quite > cut it. This is not an acceptable excuse to burn PI space. There are plenty of other Iana-L available... try using an obscure one. > -DT > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Sprunk [mailto:stephen@sprunk.org] > Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 6:01 PM > To: Daniel Golding; Kai Schlichting > Cc: North American Noise and Off-topic Gripes > Subject: Re: Get as much IP space as you ever dreamed of, was: Re: Looking > to buy IPv4 addresses from class C swamp > > > > Thus spake "Daniel Golding" <dgold(a)FDFNet.Net> > >>ARIN needs to repo any space that has [not] been advertised for a >>reasonable length of time, and reissue it. > > > So you're claiming that ARIN should revoke any allocations, including > those made before it came into existence, simply because the addresses > aren't in the global tables? > > If that's the position of the community, that's a drastic change from > assertions made in the IETF WGs and may affect address allocation > guidelines and even some protocol work. > > S > > Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein > CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the > K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking > > > IMPORTANT:The information contained in this email and/or its > attachments is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, > please notify the sender immediately by reply and immediately delete > this message and all its attachments. Any review, use, reproduction, > disclosure or dissemination of this message or any attachment by an > unintended recipient is strictly prohibited. Neither this message nor > any attachment is intended as or should be construed as an offer, > solicitation or recommendation to buy or sell any security or other > financial instrument. Neither the sender, his or her employer nor any > of their respective affiliates makes any warranties as to the > completeness or accuracy of any of the information contained herein or > that this message or any of its attachments is free of viruses. > > IMPORTANT:The information contained in this email and/or its attachments is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by reply and immediately delete this message and all its attachments. Any review, use, reproduction, disclosure or dissemination of this message or any attachment by an unintended recipient is strictly prohibited. Neither this message nor any attachment is intended as or should be construed as an offer, solicitation or recommendation to buy or sell any security or other financial instrument. Neither the sender, his or her employer nor any of their respective affiliates makes any warranties as to the completeness or accuracy of any of the information contained herein or that this message or any of its attachments is free of viruses.

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