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RE: East Coast outage?
by McBurnett, Jim 17 Aug '03

17 Aug '03

--Huh ? Where in the physics of ohms law is Hz a factor ? Having lived off --the grid, where systems are often at max 48v, yes the wires have to be --several 0's of gage to carry the lagre amperages. Much the same in A/B DC legs in --a colo. Up the volts and the amps go down to produce the same power (watts --or work). HMM, it's been a LONG time but I remember high amp, low voltage The formula makes it a swap out. Raise the voltage drop the current, or lower the voltage and raise the current if the resistance stays constant. --I am a little rusty on this one, but I seem to remember that AC travels --only on the outside skin of the wire but DC uses all the wire. This is called the skin effect, and from my RF days we did not consider it to be an issue until you get to close the KHz range. In high voltage transmission lines it may get a little higher than 60 Hz, but I don't think by much. I have many UPS that track HZ and I have seen it coming in from 59.8 to 60.2. The skin effect was a really big deal in the L band systems where I used to work. 1.2 GHz to 1.6 GHz. And in the S Band we had to use pressurized dehumidified transmission Waveguide due to freq and power levels (2 Megawatts). We did AC/DC conversion and worked with 400 Hz power for those systems, and we were not concerned with skin effect at all. But we were concerned with RF induction into the power systems supply lines that could dirty up the power input and create problems for the ac/dc conversion for the discrete electronics. anyway-it's been awhile... J

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RE: MPLS ICMP Extensions
by Mike Bernico 17 Aug '03

17 Aug '03

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the extended MPLS info only showed up when the trace was started on a PE or P router. Is that right? If customers or others outside the MPLS domain can see that info I'd definitely agree with you. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Leo Bicknell [mailto:bicknell@ufp.org] Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:40 PM To: nanog(a)merit.edu Subject: MPLS ICMP Extensions I wanted to get some other opinions on some new features that have appeared in recent code from the popular vendors. It appears there is a new draft, a copy of which can be found at http://www.watersprings.org/links/mlr/id/draft-ietf-mpls-icmp-01.txt that allows MPLS enabled boxes to return some additonal information in a traceroute packet. That's all well and good, and I can see how that might be amazingly useful to someone running an MPLS network, however, it seems to expose data much further than the local network. Here's a random example from a traceroute I recently performed (on a Juniper): traceroute wcg.net [snip] 11 hrndva1wcx3-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.95.117) 91.935 ms 102.652 ms 92.960 ms MPLS Label=13198 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 12 hrndva1wcx2-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.95.77) 92.593 ms 92.785 ms 93.119 ms MPLS Label=12676 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 13 nycmny2wcx2-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.240.45) 93.273 ms 93.121 ms 93.067 ms MPLS Label=12632 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 14 nycmny2wcx3-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.87.78) 104.755 ms 91.949 ms 92.169 ms MPLS Label=12672 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 15 chcgil1wcx3-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.240.37) 92.021 ms 91.737 ms 91.684 ms MPLS Label=12592 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 16 chcgil1wcx3-pos5-0.wcg.net (64.200.210.114) 175.907 ms 278.144 ms 203.763 ms MPLS Label=12695 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 17 chcgil1wcx2-oc48.wcg.net (64.200.103.73) 93.286 ms 93.230 ms 93.593 ms MPLS Label=13506 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1 18 stlsmo3wcf1-atm.wcg.net (64.200.210.158) 92.780 ms 92.344 ms 92.596 ms It appears both Cisco and Juniper support this new feature. The question I quickly asked both vendors is how do you turn this behavior off, so the traceroutes appear as they did before this feature was introduced. The answer, apparently, is you don't. You can either disable TTL processing on your MPLS tunnels (in effect disabling traceroute), or you can have it output all this extra information. The response I'm getting so far from each vendor is they believe this are the right two options to offer. Thus, my post here. I think there are more people out there who would like to not expose their MPLS labels, Class of Service info, or anything else this feature can provide (because, I don't know all of what it can display), but still allow traceroute to work normally. If I'm off in the deep end, please tell me so, if not, please tell your vendor rep you'd like the "icmp no mpls info" knob. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell(a)ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request(a)tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org

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Re: But few companies say that they are as fully prepared as Equinix
by ren 16 Aug '03

16 Aug '03

As an Equinix-Newark customer I can say the periodic informational update efforts were appreciated as well. Mission critical services never noticed the blip in their facilities. -ren At 03:43 PM 8/16/2003 -0400, Sean Donelan wrote: >AT&T reported 97 out of 100 generators worked in their network. MCI had >one generator fail due to a burned out part. Two carrier hotels had >problems with backup generators. > >For backup generators that is an excellent performance. The Department >of Energy study found typically fewer backup generators have a successful >start during a blackout. Even with perfect planning, maintenance and >testing; its often a roll of dice which generators will start. > > >New York Times August 16 2003 >Good Day for Concerns That Help Save Data >By JOHN SCHWARTZ > >http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/16/technology/16BACK.html > >Companies that have made serious investments in disaster preparation said >that they came through the day without a bump. > >"I'm happy to say we executed flawlessly yesterday," said Margie Backaus, >the chief business officer for Equinix, which maintains data centers and >helps large Internet networks exchange data traffic. The company's major >computing centers in Newark and Secaucus, N.J., each receive power from >two substations to ensure a steady flow of electricity. But when the >regional grid failed, both Equinix centers went to battery power and then >to diesel generators automatically, and the packets of data continued >their passage across the Internet unhindered, she said. "Everything fell >into place."

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But few companies say that they are as fully prepared as Equinix
by Sean Donelan 16 Aug '03

16 Aug '03

AT&T reported 97 out of 100 generators worked in their network. MCI had one generator fail due to a burned out part. Two carrier hotels had problems with backup generators. For backup generators that is an excellent performance. The Department of Energy study found typically fewer backup generators have a successful start during a blackout. Even with perfect planning, maintenance and testing; its often a roll of dice which generators will start. New York Times August 16 2003 Good Day for Concerns That Help Save Data By JOHN SCHWARTZ http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/16/technology/16BACK.html Companies that have made serious investments in disaster preparation said that they came through the day without a bump. "I'm happy to say we executed flawlessly yesterday," said Margie Backaus, the chief business officer for Equinix, which maintains data centers and helps large Internet networks exchange data traffic. The company's major computing centers in Newark and Secaucus, N.J., each receive power from two substations to ensure a steady flow of electricity. But when the regional grid failed, both Equinix centers went to battery power and then to diesel generators automatically, and the packets of data continued their passage across the Internet unhindered, she said. "Everything fell into place."

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NERC: power outage update August 16
by Sean Donelan 16 Aug '03

16 Aug '03

The bulk electric transmission system in the United States and Canada has been restored and is operating reliably. Many of the generating units that tripped off line during the outage have returned to service and additional generating units are expected to return to service over the weekend. Virtually all customers have been returned to electric service, although some customers will continue to experience rotating outages due to generating capacity availability. Some rotating outages may also be necessary on Monday depending on the status of the generating units returning to service and the electrical demand. http://www.nerc.com/pub_doc/8-15-03-outage-announcement-update.pdf

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AOL modem banks rely on local power
by Sean Donelan 16 Aug '03

16 Aug '03

AOL's modem banks, which relay data over phone lines in New York City and Detroit and other affected regions, had gone down after local electricity grids blinked off Thursday evening. AOL spokesman Nicholas Graham. "Most of the power at our modem banks rely on local power supplies." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63923-2003Aug15.html

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Re: East Coast outage?
by Steven M. Bellovin 16 Aug '03

16 Aug '03

In message <oydr83m2w1m.fsf(a)bert.cs.rice.edu>, Scott A Crosby writes: > > >I don't know, but at least reading this IEEE Spectrum article: >http://www.ece.umr.edu/courses/f02/ee207/spectrum/Grid/ implies that >long distance transmission is full of strange and nonlinear effects >such as 'reactive power', voltage support, and other technical >concepts that made me conclude that there are nasty details that are >not widely known. > Precisely. Or, to put it in NANOG terms, would you trust a power engineer to design BGP 5? After all, we all know the limitations of BGP 4, and it seems pretty obvious how to do routing -- just look for least-cost paths... --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb

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Re: East Coast outage?
by odlyzko＠dtc.umn.edu 16 Aug '03

16 Aug '03

Let me add yet another $0.02 worth, weighing in on the side defending the electric power industry. Let's take a very high level economic point of view. Should oodles of money be spent improving the power generation and transmission grid? Suppose that the current system were judged likely to produce blackouts such as this past week's about once every 10 years. How much does that cost the economy? To be extremely conservative, suppose that an entire day's production is completely lost. Well, in a $10 trillion economy with about 250 working days in a year, that comes to a loss of $40 billion. But if that happens just once every 10 years, the annual cost is only $4 billion. Hence before calling for giant new construction programs, make sure they will not cost more than $4 billion per year. In fact, the $4 billion per year figure is a gross overestimate. Short disruptions such as blackouts appear to have practically no effect on the measureable output of the economy. This is one of those mysteries that economists have not fully explained. However, it is well tested, since we have had a number of snowstorms that paralyzed large parts of the country for a day or two, and in every case, while there were month-to-month variations, on an annual basis the economy simply continued chugging along. (Hurricanes that did a lot of property damage, and long-lasting if minor depressants of economic activity such as SARS tend to do much more to lower economic output.) There is a lot of resiliency in the economy. It does have costs (the economic activity that is lost because of the disruption is made up later, presumably at a cost in longer working hours, etc.,), but those are hard to measure. Hence the true economic cost of suffering a blackout once every 10 years is probably more like $400 million per year. That does not buy much generating capacity or transmission lines. Now we simply will have to build more power plants and transmission lines, since electricity demand is rising. However, this costs much more money than putting down fiber, and causes much more political opposition. Given these constraints, the electric power industry appears to be doing an excellent job. Andrew Odlyzko

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Re: East Coast outage?
by Brandon Butterworth 16 Aug '03

16 Aug '03

> But what if the huge distribution systems used DC the UK - France interconnect is DC http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/activities/other/mn_interconnectors_france.h… though a relatively short distance it does provide isolation brandon

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RE: microsoft.com
by Jason Baugher 16 Aug '03

16 Aug '03

Actually faster than usual here, probably due to akamai: Non-authoritative answer: www.windowsupdate.com canonical name = windowsupdate.microsoft.nsatc.net. windowsupdate.microsoft.nsatc.net canonical name = windowsupdate.microsoft.com.edgesuite.net. windowsupdate.microsoft.com.edgesuite.net canonical name = a822.cd.akamai.net. Name: a822.cd.akamai.net Address: 166.90.148.198 Name: a822.cd.akamai.net Address: 166.90.148.199 Name: a822.cd.akamai.net Address: 166.90.148.215 Name: a822.cd.akamai.net Address: 166.90.148.233 Name: a822.cd.akamai.net Address: 166.90.148.246 Name: a822.cd.akamai.net Address: 166.90.148.247 Jason Baugher -----Original Message----- From: up(a)3.am [mailto:up@3.am] Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:46 AM To: Huopio Kauto Cc: 'nanog(a)merit.edu' Subject: RE: microsoft.com Yeah: 7 sl-gw29-nyc-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.13.16) 8.728 ms 8.674 ms 8 sl-ft-10-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.171.90) 12.338 ms 11.911 ms 9 P13-0.NYKCR2.New-york.opentransit.net (193.251.241.30) 37.556 ms 10 P2-0.NYKBB5.New-york.opentransit.net (193.251.241.230) 12.385 ms 11 81.52.249.16 (81.52.249.16) 13.164 ms 19.364 ms 12.446 ms Interestingly, there's no reverse dns for 81.52.249.16 and it shows as being RIPE space...allocated to Akamai...do you suppose this is to minimize embarassment to MS that they would have to use Akamai? On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Huopio Kauto wrote: > > It seems that Microsoft is Akamai'zing as we speak.. > > --Kauto > > Kauto Huopio - kauto.huopio(a)ficora.fi > Information Security Adviser / CERT-FI -coordinator > Finnish Communications Regulatory Authority / CERT-FI > tel. +358-9-6966772, fax. +358-9-6966515 > CERT-FI duty desk +358-9-6966510 / http://www.cert.fi > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan Heitman [mailto:bryan@bryanheitman.com] > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:48 AM > To: nanog(a)merit.edu > Subject: microsoft.com > > > > Several networks I have talked to are reporting they can't get to > www.microsoft.com > > Has the virus began? anyone? > > > Bryan > James Smallacombe PlantageNet, Inc. CEO and Janitor up(a)3.am http://3.am ======================================================================== =

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