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2008.02.18 NANOG Newcomer breakfast notes
by Matthew Petach 18 Feb '08

18 Feb '08

Notes from the most excellent newcomer breakfast that Ren hosted this morning, for those of you who were still nursing hangovers from last night and were unable to stagger down in time to join us. ;P Matt (what can I say, it's a compulsion...) 2008.02.18 Newcomer Breakfast notes Ren calls the breakfast to order at 0904 hours. Please fill in the front, introduce yourselves, and let us know if there's any way we can help you out. Look for yellow and blue tags, those people can help you with face recognition, and introduce you to people. This is not an exclusive society, by any means. Jared Mauch is a repeat SC member, and people are strongly encouraged to become involved. Todd Underwood, chair of PC introduces the history of NANOG, starting with the thrice yearly meetings of the engineering team at Merit for the non-profit educational network. After commercial networks got involved, NANOG was born. Merit happened to run the NSFnet engineering meetings, so they continued along running NANOG. About 4 years ago, the membership of NANOG decided they wanted a more active role in running the organization. The policy and direction are set by steering committee, while Merit still handles the administrative arm. Joe Provo is next up. Has been in the internet business since 94/95 timeframe, did access provider thing at RCN, been attending since 97 timeframe, figured he should help keep it going. He tossed his hat in the ring, and got involved in the program committee. Would very much like to hear from people who are attending to find out why people are attending, what makes it Philip Smith, chair of Steering Committee, comes from Australia, works for a vendor, so he's got a mixed background. The elections that Joe mentioned come up every year, there's usually a good crop of candidates that show up, which is a good thing. At the community meeting they listed some ways of contacting the steering committee, but one of the best ways is to just walk up and talk to them. He first got involved in the Internet in 1990 at university, and things just escalated from there. He's also involved in APRICOT which starts tomorrow (need to stop overlapping these conferences!)--other parts of the world do look to NANOG as the model for operational groups, and they base their operational groups around what NANOG has evolved into. We start doing around-the-room introductions; rather than slaughter people's names, I'll pass on trying to capture the list of attendees. Back to Ren Lightning talks have opened, there will be 3 today, and there are still slots for tomorrow and Wednesday, we encourage people to submit topics, especially government, research, etc. areas. Welcome again, glad to see everyone here, and enjoy your breakfast!

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What is being 'ON NET' good for these days?
by Drew Weaver 18 Feb '08

18 Feb '08

Howdy, over the past 4-6 months or so I have been attempting to find various means of interconnecting our main POP in a very small market (From a telecom options standpoint) in Ohio with one of the IX points in the US or at least a facility in another state/city which offers more options for us. It appears we have outgrown our market (we are beginning to hit the "We only offer DS-3/OC-3 in that market..." conversations..) and we will either need to move, or we will need to get creative. (option A is out..) I've found the willingness of the carriers with whom we've had long standing profitable relationships to work with us in achieving this goal well, lacking. We are currently ON NET with 3 major international telecommunication companies who seem very willing to keep pumping their transit into our facility but are not willing to allow us to use their network to cross-connect to other carriers or even to connect to their co-location facilities in other markets...? It could be that I am approaching them with the wrong terminology, or it could be that I am going about this in the wrong way altogether. Does anyone else have experience growing a network out of your local market and success/horror stories going along with it? We aren't really interested in a second datacenter. We would just like to connect our current datacenter via a redundant fiber ring of some sort to an IX or a city which has more transit choices than Podunk. Also any advice on where would actually be a good place from Ohio (Chicago is an obvious choice...) to cross connect would be helpful as well, but I am mainly looking for opinions or thoughts on technical challenges of "doing it yourself" and trying to get telecoms to help. (it seems like it would be cheaper initially to buy backhaul from a telecom but in the long run to build it yourself, but I am not sure on maintenance costs..) Thanks in advance. -Drew

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Interpersonal skills needed for Network Engineers
by Kim Onnel 18 Feb '08

18 Feb '08

Hello Everyone, I am looking for defining what are skills needed in people that will work in an ISP's operational/NOC environment as Network Engineers. In my humble experience, i have came across people that i just feel they are not right for such technical jobs, people would act and take their golden fingers to the devices without logic and others who has more of a structured approach to solving problems and thinking, some that will crank under pressure and just loose it and others who will act rationally. Please correct me if i am wrong and if you believe such skills could be gained by time/training? Maybe the above doesnt really need to be there for others in the development/engineering departments where more of studying and analysis skills are required, please correct me if i am wrong. Private msg me if needed. Thanks, Kim

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2008.02.17 NANOG Community Meeting Notes
by Matthew Petach 18 Feb '08

18 Feb '08

For those unable to attend the meeting today, I took some notes during the open NANOG Community meeting this evening. Slides went past very quickly, so apologies for the gaps in some of the slide contents, or for typos that crept in due to the speed with which things progressed. Now off to the evening reception. :) Matt 2008.02.17 NANOG 42 Community meeting notes Room gets fairly packed fairly quickly. Call to order is made at 1738 hours Pacific Time Philip Smith is steering committee chair, and have been since end of October to October of this year. Agenda Steering comittee report philip programme committee report todd mail list comittee report alex merit report Jason (for alex rosens...() who is sick) open discussion There are open microphones, so if you have questions, feel free to use them for questions; state your name, as the session is being recorded, and speak into the mike so we don't have to repeat questions. Steering comittee Betty Burke (for merit) Randy Bush Steve Feldman (elected in oct) Jared Mauch (elected in oct) Chris Morrow ( Alex Pilosov Joe Provo Philip Smith Todd Underwood (ex-officio, PC) Farewell and thank you to Bill Norton and Joe Abley All recognizable via blue badges, hopefully, for the steering comittee (well, except ex-officios) Highlights since NANOG41 Charter ammendments approved and implemented nanog.org/charter.html 2007-01: addition of MLC chair as ex-officio member of the steering committee 2007-02: editorial consistency in MLC nomenclature 2007-03: removal of text specifying various internal processes to be followed within the PC, in the interests of avoiding micromanagement Now MLC really is MLC, a comittee, not just a manager. Selection of PC members Chris Morrow serves as ex-officio on PC MLC brought up to 6 members MLC Chair now serves as ex-officio on SC NANOG infrastructure migration all but main list and website to do dedicated server for NANOG, futures mailing list is on new system already; main list ready for migration now. Preparations for NANOG42 Preparations for future NANOGs 18 month planning horizon is a goal SC holds fortnightly telephone conference calls Minutes published: http://www.nanog.org/sc.minutes07.html http://www.nanog.org/sc.minutes08.html There's not much feedback, so please read and feedback. mailing lists: nanog(a)nanog.org engineering/ops discussions nanog-futures(a)nanog.org discussion about NANOG list itself steering(a)nanog.org how to contact the steering committee nanogpc(a)nanogpc.org contact the PC committe nanog-admin(a)nanog.org contact the mailing list admins Wow. That's pretty confusing. 268 on the nanog-futures list, vs several thousand on the main list. >From Philip over to Todd now. No slides from here. Best attended NANOG since the bust, 558 attendees so far. Will try to figure out why people are showing up again. The PC members are under general info/program committee on the website, bios are up there if you want to know more; includes academics, small companies, big companies, we try to get a cross section of the community. how does it work? People submit talks, but not early enoug, they talk about them, they put minutes up for review, they talk more about the talks, and they reject those they don't have time for or are blatant sales talks. The submissions are getting better again. Would LOVE to see more talks from actual operators about actual incidents, migrations, attacks, etc. that will really help the other operators. It doesn't matter if they're not as polished; even if you're not sure if it'll be a great talk, come talk to the PC members (yellow badges), they'll help mentor you through the process. Talk submissions closed, and as soon as they closed, 8 or 10 really good talks came in--you REALLY need to start submitting them as soon as the previous NANOG closes! Joel Jaegli from program comittee comments that even if you just have an idea for a talk, even if you don't think you can do it, it can be used as a straw man for development. If you think you're lazy and irresponsible, you can work with the PC to get the talk developed. Ted notes that if you have a good idea for the PC, submit your idea, don't wait. He really wants to see people submit sooner rather than later. The volume of garbage is amazing. He would prefer to rate good stuff rather than garbage. Thank you, for corollary B from Ted Seely; if you don't submit crap for review, don't complain about the shit you have to sit through. :) Todd notes you can bounce ideas off the PC members today, and can help couple people up to do joint talks. They are publishing minutes of the meetings, but there's little evidence people actually read them. OK, some people do read them. So they'll continue to put them up. Lightening talks are open; you just need an abstract and a few points for getting a slot. Submit them and for PC members, vote on the current submissions! V6 only hour, you saw publicity, etc; you won't have normal v4 connectivity; either get your v6 working, or listen to the talk. Questions about process, talks, etc? Blue is steering, yellow is program, Mailing List Committee report MLC: David Barak, Martin Hannigan, Tim Yocum, Sue Joiner, Alex Pilosov, Brett Watson MLC History and People Historical overview susan Harris until 05 currently committe 4+ members appointed by SC plus 1 appointed by Merit Currently: david Barak, Tim Yocum, Brett wAtson, Sue Joiner (merit), Alex Pilosov (chair) Authority: NANOG charter 7.1.2 What does MLC do MLC purpose AUP enforcement cannot change AUP make the ML more useful: The list should reflect the activities of the conference. If you can't point to the list as a justification to attend the conference, we're losing. Goal is to make list operationally useful, and as a reason for people to attend the conference. Not a list police--we expect posters to self moderate. Goal is for people to be adult about what they post. NANOG-L statistics number of subscribers vs 6 months ago nanog-list 8568 vs 8284 nanog-diest 1381 vs 1386 nanog-announce 745 vs 708 nanog-futures 289 vs 268 Current AUP One addition about autoresponders being prohibited. No longer requirement for posting under your real name, no way to verify that. You can read the text online. AUP statistic Between nanog41 and now warnings 6 bans 0 persons with 2 cumulative warnings: 2 one more warning, may be kicked. AUP enforcement policy /nanog-archive/nanog-futures/msg02297.html summary: warning: Any mlc member can warn, MLC votes on appeals from warnings bans: MLC vots to after 3+ warnings. SC hear appeals from both MLC future--AUP signal-to-noise ratio low--what can we do to improve? guiding the conversation without stifling the conversation AUP enforcement tools (warning/ban) not effective in increasing SNR Being clueless is not currently against AUP Hopefully if enough people on the list tell you to shut up, you're an idiot, you'll get the clue, but some people don't seem to be getting it. MLC future -- new initiatives Thread summaries -- time intensive thread statistics poster statistics hoping to get idiots to maybe post *less* web gateway (blog) for threads that do not belong on-list (push vs pull) People should be subscribed to futures so you can be aware of what's going on. List migrations Moving from majordomo to mailman all lists migrated except main list mostly user-invisible web subscribe/unsubscribe digest as option changed mail headers (if procmailing) when? soon! There will be a way to handle unsubscribes via email as well, but not sure how that will be handled yet. MLC is you! This is your mailing list This is your community MLC is NOT the list police--we really do expect the community to self-moderate. Alex does NOT really want to be the Putin of NANOG. MLC transparency (TBD) Automated filters will be posted clearly and accurately on the website Automated monthly statistics will be posted on website Public minutes of monthly meetings posted in a timely fashion on website SOON! (pending migration to mailman) Questions? Peter Harrison, shopping.com, many features could be addressed via forum software; could we maybe consider something like that? People are too busy to read a forum. To move off-topic threads to a forum might be more of a possibility. Lucy Lynch, Internet Society List membership vs attendance at conferences she recommends many people join the list, it's a heartbeat, it allows them to keep track of the community even though they never have any intent to attend a meeting. Threads--if a thread goes in a long time, make a request to the list for someone to summarize the thread, and it's likely that will be enough to end the thread. If you're migrating to mailman for the large list, please get someone to rewrite the MonArch backend, its default filters are poorly crafted for active lists; she can help with that work, and she'll work with Sue. Randy Bush, IIJ, list and meetings are/aren't correlated? As soon as people started flying to the conference, the list went dead; the active members on the list are the ones attending the conferences; this is good. Jay Hennigan, impulse internet; for truly operational items, a mailing list is much more immediate for getting updates on operational issues. Steve Feldman, SC--for web forums, there's been a sense that maybe a forum or wiki for common items could be good for some topics; but needs interest, and someone to set it up first. Merit Report Jason Russell for Andy RosenZweig Interim filler-in for...uh. CRG west is sponsor Network contributions GNI provides wireless PtP network Trango Broadband provided internet access gears Kapela and Ass contributed networking support thanks to duane wessels for caching ARIN provided funding to help support broadcasts and archives Internet2 supported webcasts Beer, gear, break sponsors Merit team onsite Carol Wadsworth, Gale Terkeurst, David Gilbertson, Jason Russell, Larry Blunk, Valerie Wittkop, Sue Joiner, and Betty Burke (in our hearts!) Pete Hoffswell Please fill in survey re IPv6 hour. NANOG 41 stats Albuquerque 450 Total 372 Paid too much applause and laughter to take rest of notes NANOG 41 Albuquerque balnace Future sites 43 Telx Booklyn NY 44 LA, Centergate 45 Not determined (Carribean) Other updates WEbsite is being redesigned and moved to new server new archive WEbcast media improvements done Wirecast encoding software more powerful encoder hardware tunnel unicast feed to ann arbor quicktime streaming format media NOT done yet DV camera capture via firewire over fiber Native multicast from event venue merit-managed windows media and quicktime streaming servers free up Internet2 resources Archive stats oct 07 5,085 hits 21916MB nov 07 3,010 hits, wow, that went fast. Questions? Last 5 minutes is open discussion time. Floor is open for any committee, for merit, for anything else, microphones are wide open. Nope, everyone is very happy for how every one of the committees and committee members is performing. Steering is yellow badges program committee is blue badges mailing list committee are the white badges. Thank you all for attending, hopefully you found this useful, if not, let them know what would be useful for future meetings. Philip adjourns the meeting at 1628 hours Pacific Time.

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nanog 42 is begun, video streaming up
by Todd Underwood 18 Feb '08

18 Feb '08

folx, just to remind everyone not at the conference, nanog42 has begun. the agenda is up at: http://nanog.org/mtg-0802/agenda.html information on the free, live video streams (including the community meeting happening right now) at: http://nanog.org/streaming.html t. -- _____________________________________________________________________ todd underwood +1 603 643 9300 x101 renesys corporation general manager babbledog todd(a)renesys.com http://www.renesys.com/blog

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NANOG 42 Lightning Talk submission reminder...
by Joel Jaeggli 17 Feb '08

17 Feb '08

Greetings, Lightning talk submission remains open until Tuesday Feb 19th. Submissions can be made here: http://www.nanogpc.org/lightning/ A lightning talk is a very short presentation or speech by any attendee on any topic relevant to the NANOG audience. These are limited to ten minutes; this will be strictly enforced. If you have a topic that's timely, interesting, or even a crackpot idea you want to share, we encourage you to consider presenting it. The Program Committee will decide which submissions are relevant (using criteria based on the NANOG mailing list AUP) and choose the best ones to be presented. Use of slides is optional. All slides must be in PDF or Powerpoint format, and will be loaded in advance onto the speaker laptop on the podium. Thanks Joel

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Question on the topology of Internet Exchange Points
by Kai Chen 16 Feb '08

16 Feb '08

A typical Internet Exchange Point (IXP) consists of one or more network switches <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_switch>, to which each of the participating ISPs connect. We call it the exchange-based topology. My question is if some current IXPs use directly-connected topology, in which ISPs just connect to each other by direct link, not through a network switch?? If so, what's the percentage of this directly-connected case? Kai

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Re: Looking for Verizon-GNI network engineer
by Henry Linneweh 16 Feb '08

16 Feb '08

It has been my experience that data center engineers doing NOC support at Verizon do speak to paying customers about routing issues for premium data center services. -Henry ----- Original Message ---- From: K. Scott Bethke <scott(a)carpathiahost.com> To: nanog(a)merit.edu Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 6:49:13 PM Subject: Looking for Verizon-GNI network engineer Sorry if this is off-topic frustration has set in. I've got what looks like a routing loop or a wedge in your network and I cant get past tier2 saying it is an "internet problem". I asked to speak with an engineer directly was told Verizon engineers don't talk directly with customers. Issue going on for 4 days. $ traceroute www.tickerforum.org traceroute to www.tickerforum.org (70.169.168.7), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 10.254.123.1 (10.254.123.1) 3.219 ms 1.085 ms 0.915 ms 2 L301.VFTTP-02.CLPPVA.verizon-gni.net (71.171.93.1) 6.329 ms 6.281 ms 5.036 ms 3 P2-3.LCR-02.CLPPVA.verizon-gni.net (130.81.37.194) 4.885 ms 4.091 ms 6.490 ms 4 so-7-0-0-0.PEER-RTR1.ASH.verizon-gni.net (130.81.10.94) 4.731 ms 8.248 ms 5.167 ms 5 130.81.15.238 (130.81.15.238) 5.926 ms 130.81.15.190 (130.81.15.190) 6.586 ms 9.158 ms 6 * * * 7 * * * 8 * $ traceroute www.google.com traceroute: Warning: www.google.com has multiple addresses; using 64.233.169.104 traceroute to www.l.google.com (64.233.169.104), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 10.254.123.1 (10.254.123.1) 1.774 ms 1.117 ms 0.909 ms 2 L301.VFTTP-02.CLPPVA.verizon-gni.net (71.171.93.1) 5.820 ms 4.029 ms 4.861 ms 3 P2-3.LCR-01.CLPPVA.verizon-gni.net (130.81.37.192) 8.036 ms 6.346 ms 7.671 ms 4 so-6-3-1-0.BB-RTR2.RES.verizon-gni.net (130.81.29.82) 6.524 ms 8.161 ms 8.408 ms 5 * * * 6 * * * Ticket # is VAD01QVDW -Scott

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Area Social Activity
by Owen DeLong 16 Feb '08

16 Feb '08

Sorry for the short notice. For anyone coming to NANOG early who is a certified SCUBA DIver, I'll be diving in Monterey (about 1 hour drive from San Jose) Saturday and Sunday. If you're interested in joining me, send an email off-list. Owen DeLong Open Water SCUBA Instructor (PADI)

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Cogent communities still working?
by David Ulevitch 16 Feb '08

16 Feb '08

Has anyone else noticed that Cogent communities appear to no longer be taking effect for BGP speaking customers? Particularly 174:991, 174:3002 and no-export? Prefixes I'm talking about (if you want to see from your routeview) include: 208.67.222.0/24 and 208.67.220.0/24 sourced from 36692. I can't find a public-facing looking glass which makes debugging difficult... -David

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