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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by Sean Doran 27 Jan '96

27 Jan '96

| Did you find a four leaf clover after the snow melted, or find a lucky | horse-shoe in the fields today? ^^^^^^^^ No, but you got the first seven letters right. | What did those in the Dark Middle Ages do when branded | a heretic by the religious zealots ? | Answer: | Most of them were put to the flame and ridiculed. Ahh, the good old days. Nowadays people who think that they deserve the label religious heretic have to go all out to invite ridicule upon themselves. Sad, really. There must be easier ways for people to get abuse, contempt, and other forms of negative attention, than spending so much effort trying to make people who are well-intentioned and generally well-respected look like bad guys or ignoramuses, while telling us about what books you happen to be reading, or where you're flying off to next week, or what your second cousin twice removed had for lunch yesterday, as if people here are such snobs that they will think more highly of you if you are reading something by Vidal or whoever, or are making large amounts of money as a consultant, or have a diary detailing the history of network XYZ, or live near Dulles Airport. Well, maybe some do. Who knows? But anyway, although I don't think very much of you and your postings, almost exclusively because of your apparent need to trump up your own talents by disparaging others', don't count on me to suggest removing you from any open mailing lists, publically or privately. Maybe it's my sense of humour, or a sadistic streak a kilometre wide, but I *enjoy* seeing people make absolute fools of themselves in public. And you, you're practically Monty Python's Flying Internet. Sean.

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by Eric Kozowski 27 Jan '96

27 Jan '96

>If you convince the registries to allocate no longer prefix than an /18 >or a mix of lengths up to say /19 or /20 (such that no more than 1000ish >are allocated) to ISP's or multihomed companies, and then require that >the announcement must match the allocated block, you can guarantee that >the routing table will not exceed the 1024 per /8. > >Then, some of you will ask how to enforce this. Once every so often, you >dump the BGP routing tables from strategic routers. If you see any >non-matching prefixes, you send an email to the network coordinator for >the allocated block giving them a set amount of time to clean it up. Any >routes which are not cleaned up by the deadline are added to a filter >list which could be carried on routers. > >This method would have (at least) the following advantages (or >disadvantages, from your particular viewpoint): > > 1) You could reasonably assure that the number of prefixes in an > /8 would match what was allocated. > > 2) Because of 1, if you get the registries to set their > allocation policies such that no more than 1024 (or the target number) > blocks are allocated per /8, you can guarantee that the number of > routes in an /8 is not too far out of wack with the target. > > 3) You can give those people moving providers a grace period to renumber, > say 30 days. Essentially, the time given to clean up the routing > tables. This would be a side effect of the "you have 30 days to fix > the routing tables or else". > > 4) You eliminate the wasted space of addresses with prefixes longer than > /18 being allocated. An excellent, well thought out proposal. I like it. Eric -- Eric Kozowski Structured Network Systems, Inc. kozowski(a)structured.net Better, Cheaper, Faster -- pick any two. (503)656-3530 Voice "Providing High Quality, Reliable Internet Service" (800)881-0962 Voice 56k to DS1

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by Sean Doran 27 Jan '96

27 Jan '96

| The registries (although I shouldn't speak for all of them) would be | more than happy to allocate address space in whatever way the ISPs | agree is the "right way". The problem is, you can't agree on what's | the "right way" of doing it. It's like herding cats without the benefit of a laser pointer. | They do not want to be tied to their upstream ISP. Understandable. Hence, the people who actually develop technology to renumber ISPs and things downstream from them, whether that be with NATs (hi cisco) or things emanating out of PIER, will be heros. (Hopefully rich too). | But consider the hundreds of ISPs that don't. What's NANOG? Sigh. Sean.

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by Sean Doran 26 Jan '96

26 Jan '96

| Don't confuse lack of popularity with a tendency to disagree due to having | different sets of problems before us. Very true. | Yes, we have some prefixes that could and should be aggregated and some specifics | that are subsets of aggregates. Thanks for pointing this out. It will be fixed | right away. There. Andy's cool, and if he says he's going to fix it, it'll get fixed. If only it were so easy with everyone. Hi Marty! Sean.

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by Sean Doran 26 Jan '96

26 Jan '96

| > We just have some differences of philosophy -- you think | > that RIPE really can persuade people into having only | > 1024 announements (preferably far fewer) in 195/8, and | > I don't. That's all. | | OK. I call this a challenge but you won't let me try ;-). You and Randy Bush seem to be reading each other's minds. He has proposed this in a way that is very interesting, and which I will think about. There is a bad failure mode to consider that even a badge afterwards won't make any more attractive. Mostly it's "what on earth do we do if we cross the threshold of 1024 prefixes in 195/8?" to which I see no easy answer that doesn't involve inflict enormous pain on people with old, established long prefixes in 195/8. If you could help more there, then yes, you can think of it as a big challenge. The rest of your message is a good start, and has me thinking, as I've just told Randy in private email. The only other detail is that the consequences of making an exception in one piece of unallocated-from address-space because of the involvement of a single particular organization may have some side-effects beyond engineering that will have to be pondered by some other of my colleagues. This is also something you could help think about, as we will need an answer for "well, you gave *RIPE* a break, why not us?". Sean.

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by Yakov Rekhter 26 Jan '96

26 Jan '96

Daniel, > If you insist on prefix-length filtering I have proposed a soloution > for future address space allocated via the RIPE NCC several times: > > - set your inbound prefix length filter to /19. > > - The RIPE NCC will *guarantee* that we will not make more than > 1024 non-aggregateable allocations from each /8. Would the RIPE NCC provide such non-aggregatable allocations irrespective of how many hosts would be covered by such an allocation ? Yakov.

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MAI Announces Detroit MXP
by Justin W. Newton 26 Jan '96

26 Jan '96

MAI, Network Services announced today that the Detroit MXP (Metropolitan Exchange Point) is ready for operation. Parties interested in connecting to the MXP should contact Justin Newton (justin(a)mai.net) or Vincent Bono (vbono(a)mai.net) at (703) 506-0505. More information can be found on the Detroit MXP web page at: http://www.mai.net/mxp/detroit/mxp.htm. Justin Newton | jnewton(a)hq.mainet.com Internet Administrator # (703) 506-0505 MAI Network Services | Detroit MXP online soon #

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by Sean Doran 26 Jan '96

26 Jan '96

Dennis said: >>[192 et al] look like swamps that are ripe for the picking. Bill said: >Already underway as part of PIER Yay. I'm looking forward to the updates. I'm even more looking forward to technology that makes renumbering tractable, because that will end this entire line of discussion pretty much forever. Sean.

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by Ronald Khoo 26 Jan '96

26 Jan '96

You're trying to achieve a perfect policy that will work for all time when what we need is something to eke out IPv4 for the rest of its natural life. By the time enough of your postulated ISPs have grown big enough AND THEN shrunk enough for this to matter in any practical sense, IPv4 will have become mostly static, and all of us here will have retired from active Internet Politics. I hope. On Jan 26, 12:59pm, Daniel Karrenberg wrote: } Subject: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations } } > Ronald Khoo <ronald(a)office.demon.net> writes: } } > Here's a suggestion for one simple rule. "Where delegating address space } > to a provider registry, a) never delegate a block smaller than any } > existing PA block already delegated, and b) once 3 such blocks are } > delegated, always delegate a block at least 4 times bigger". } } While sounding fine in general, this assumes ever increasing growth } of ISPs. An assumption easily proven invalid by counterexample. } } Daniel }-- End of excerpt from Daniel Karrenberg -- Ronald Khoo <ronald(a)demon.net> +44-181-371-1000 FAX +44-181-371-3750

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Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
by hwb＠upeksa.sdsc.edu 26 Jan '96

26 Jan '96

>IANA is the *Naming and Addressing* Authority. But to the >best of my knowledge the IANA's authority is not sufficient to >guarantee Internet-wide connectivity. There is no authority any more. May have been in the ARPAnet, *may* be in the NSFNET days. The IANA/InterNIC thing is essentially a coordination function that assumes that everyone plays and in result gives a good probability of global uniqueness in varieties of assignments. If the policies are not being accepted, the non-accepters will weight global interconnectivity against needing to provide services in a perhaps isolated environment. Many will choose global connectivity, some others may not. Example. A few weeks back or so I needed an AS number, but the InterNIC came back, after I filled out their form, with what I considered unreasonable additional requests, and I thought screw it, I don't need this, I just pick a number. The setup was semi-experimenal anyway (some routing research, but connected), and if someone complains I can fix it later, or send them after the InterNIC. So, the coordination function has failed there, and there was certainly no authority involved. I liked Dennis' note about picking reasonable targets, btw, and going for those somehow, may be doing "limits by declaration," so we find out what's reasonable, rather than dwelling in doom or no-doom about address spaces and so. That something that could be done at the NANOG meeting, with some email in advance and after?

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