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Re: topological closeness....
by Che-Hoo Cheng 17 May '96

17 May '96

At 06:57 AM 5/16/96 +1000, Geoff Huston wrote: >Paul, > >You can be a vocal as you desire, but ultimately from this part of the >globe the dominant factor in any ISP business is the cost of the >International Private Lease. This lease cost is approximately 10 times >the cost of domestic infrastructure. > >Now when you construct an IPL in a competitive environment where do >you terminate it? Generally you are loking for an optimal mix of price >and functionality. The observation for the AP region today is that the >cheapest IPL half circuits for the AP region terminate in the >US. Hence Randy's observation. The internal infrastructure within the >AP region happens in a second pass, once the primary objective of >major connectivity is achieved internal infrastructure can be cost >effective if there is internal traffic flow to match. > >About the only thing that could hasten regional infrastructure is a >drastic revision of the trading practices and expectation of return on >investment by the undersea cable investors. Exchange points have >little impact per se as they are, in economic terms, a minor aspect of >the entire equation. Yes, they are still a minor aspect but I think they contribute serveral more percents to the return on investment. In AP, we have exchange points such as NSPIXP of Japan and HKIX of Hong Kong. If ISPs in other AP countries have links to JP or HK and automatically (or semi-automatically) they can connect to all ISPs in that country/region instead of just one or several ISPs in it, the connection is more valuable and justifiable. If the links can also be used to connect to other ISPs in other AP countries via that exchange, the connection is even more valuable and justifiable. Of course, we still can't eliminate the links to US altogether. But we probably can slow down the growth of bandwidth requirements to US a little bit. (NOTE: HKIX has mandatory MLPA for routes within Hong Kong.) Che-Hoo Cheng | Email: chcheng(a)cuhk.edu.hk Data Comms and Networking Section | URL: http://www.cuhk.edu.hk/ Information Technology Service Unit | Tel: +852 2609-8848 The Chinese University of Hong Kong | Fax: +852 2603-5001

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Re: topological closeness....
by Paul Ferguson 17 May '96

17 May '96

At 07:37 PM 5/15/96 +0900, David R. Conrad wrote: > >In the Asia Pacific Rim region, nearly all the bandwidth goes from AP >region countries to the US directly. This is true due to the >tariffing situation, although it is now beginning to change (some >intra-Asia networks have already been established). > I think many of us have been *very* vocal supporters of encouraging creationm of multiple AP NAPs to avoid this form of dementia. :-) When traffic transits back to the US West Coast to reach another AP location, this clearly contributes to the overall problem. >Putting mirrors in countries usually makes sense (particularly when a >country has an Internet exchange or two), but putting them on a >continental basis generally doesn't. > Agreed. Creating exchange points would also help immensely. - paul

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Draft NANOG agenda
by Susan R. Harris 16 May '96

16 May '96

Greetings - here's the draft NANOG agenda. ----------------------------------------- North American Network Operators Group (NANOG) Agenda Thursday, May 30 Time Topic Presenter(s) ---- ----- ----------- 9:00 a.m. Welcome, Introductions, Bill Norton, Merit Future Meetings 9:15 a.m. STATE OF THE INTERNET: NAPs PacBell NAP Warren Williams, PacBell Sprint NAP Bilal Chinoy, SDSC Ameritech NAP Mark Cnota, Ameritech MAE-East Steve Feldman, MFS Datanet 10:45 a.m. Break 11:00 a.m. STATE OF THE INTERNET: NSPs Sprint Jim Steinhardt, Sprint ANS Curtis Villamizer, ANS MCI Jack Waters, MCI 12:00-1:00 p.m. Lunch 1:00 p.m. Call for Participation: Robert Laughlin, DataXnge Simplified Peering at the Exchange Points 1:15 p.m. STATE OF THE INTERNET: Trends and Research Standardized Format for Exchange Dave Siegel, RTD Systems Point Traffic Recording & & Networking Interchange Exchange Point Traffic Fragmentation & Reassembly Kim Claffy, SDSC InterNIC Update Mark Kosters,InterNIC Routing Stability Analysis Craig Labovitz, Merit 2:45 p.m. Internet Service Measurements: Call for Participation Steve Crocker, CyberCash 3:00 p.m. Break 3:15 p.m. Status of the Internet Routing Registry RAWhoisd Update Brian Renaud, Merit IRR Synchronization Brian Renaud Using the IRR to Generate Cisco Randy Bush, RGnet Configurations Optimizing the Route Server Jake Khuon, Merit Configuration Process 4:15 p.m. Economics of Route Filtering Jeremy Porter, Freeside & Other Limits Communications 4:45 p.m. MView: An Application for Dave Thaler, Merit Visualizing & Managing the MBone Friday, May 31 9:00 a.m. Routing Arbiter Update Project Status Elise Gerich, Merit New Tools Roe (Route Object Editor) Cengiz Alaettinoglu, ISI ASExplorer & other Tools Craig Labovitz, Merit 9:45 a.m. "Web Efficiency and Robustness:" Larry Blunk, Merit Meeting Summary 10:15 a.m. Break 10:30 a.m. InterNIC Guardian Object Jasdip Singh, InterNIC 11:00 a.m. Inter-Provider Outage Notifications Jonathan Heiliger, MFS Communications Co. Alan Hannan, Global Internet 11:30 a.m. Update from the PIER (Procedures Will Leland, Bellcore for Internet and Enterprise Renumbering) Working Group 11:45 a.m. Closing Remarks Bill Norton, Merit

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Re: topological closeness....
by Paul Ferguson 15 May '96

15 May '96

At 06:57 AM 5/16/96 +1000, Geoff Huston wrote: >Paul, > >You can be a vocal as you desire, but ultimately from this part of the >globe the dominant factor in any ISP business is the cost of the >International Private Lease. This lease cost is approximately 10 times >the cost of domestic infrastructure. > Geoff, I'm stating what would be ideal, not necessarily practical. And pointing out what should already be obvious. :-) - paul

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Re: topological closeness....
by Sanjay Dani 15 May '96

15 May '96

>The only problem that it does not work at all. > >Which WWW server is closer to me - one with BGP path > > 1239 3491 690 1333 (cnn.com) > >or one at > > 1239 1792 (www.cnc.ac.cn)? > >The second is in China, for God's sake! > >There ain't no such thing as global metrics. The only >useful kind of metrics is administrative, and therefore >they cannot reflect any real characteristics of paths. On a global level, how useful would it be to base the decision on whether the client address belongs to the the InterNIC block, APNIC or the european registry ? I can live with exceptions such as an MCI customer in India gets redirected to the north american mirror server instead of the one in Singapore because their address belongs to an InterNIC allocated MCI block. How often do these exceptions happen ? Where can I find the association of address blocks and registries ? We are currently working on mirroring a copule of sites on all major continents. I understand this approach does not optimize routing to the web servers within north america. Sanjay.

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Re: topological closeness....
by Hank Nussbacher 14 May '96

14 May '96

On Tue, 14 May 1996 10:09:44 +1000 Geoff Huston wrote: >At 6:15 PM 13/5/96, Vadim Antonov wrote: >>Cacheing appears to be the only sane way to distribute >>load. You always know where the closest cacheing server is. > >not even this is the case - you can guess but that may not always >work! > >If I could _enforce_ caching by traffic interception then >I could construct vaguely logical cache structures as an ISP. AS378 does exactly that. It blocks port 80 to abroad and forces everyone to the Netscape proxy servers it runs (2 of them in a load balance fashion with DNS set to point to only one if the other fails). AS378 is the Israeli University academic network of 7 universities. > >But relying on users to configure their end systems with the >identity of the closest cache server using some ill defined >"network metric" is always going to be an erratic affair at best. Not unless you don't have a choice :-) Go to: http://www.tau.ac.il/Shiber/May96/13May96 There you will find their numbers for yesterday. Port 80 now consumes 54% of all traffic. > >geoff > > Hank

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Re: topological "closeness" (RE: Web o' Wonder)
by Justin W. Newton 14 May '96

14 May '96

At 03:04 PM 5/13/96 -0700, Matthew Kaufman wrote: >As soon as some nice legislation gets passed to protect me, the ISP, when >I run a cache, I'll put one in and help solve the bandwidth problem. Saying >"the network will break without cache servers" isn't a valid defense to >charges of posession of illegal and/or copyrighted material. > >-matthew kaufman > matthew(a)scruz.net Yep, its much cheaper for me to buy another ds-3 or so than to worry about legal reprecussssions from proxying. This is something that has to be fixed. Justin Newton * You have to change just to stay Internet Architect * caught up. Erol's Internet Services *

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NANOG ANNOUNCEMENT: Future Dates and Locations
by William B. Norton 14 May '96

14 May '96

Hi Everyone - Thought you'd like to know that our fall meeting is set. Here's the schedule for the next two meetings: May 30-31 Washington DC hosted by the CIX @ George Washington University Oct 24-25 Ann Arbor, MI hosted by Merit @ University of Michigan Union Cheers - Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- William Norton <wbn(a)merit.edu> (313) 936-2656

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Re: topological closeness....
by avg＠postman.ncube.com 14 May '96

14 May '96

Well, i simply pointed out that solution based on *hosts* choosing the best paths in global networks is not going to work. It is in the same category as source-based routing. The network is simply too large for end-hosts to be able to make any useful decisions. I though that was understood long time ago, so nowadays resolvers do not even attempt to guess which address is best in case of multihomed hosts (beyond obvious directly-connected network trick). Pinging all addresses may be worse than just talking to a random server. To make any meaningful measurement you need to send many dozens of probe packets. Incidentally, that is about as much as the average WWW exchange takes. So the real solution is not to bother, and concentrate on demand-side cacheing. --vadim PS I would also be sceptical about attempts to "try" such things as perpetuum mobile or palm reading just on the chance that they may work. PPS The funny thing is that there's a hope that a good heuristic can be found -- since the network is rather hierarchal a good choice of topologically significant addressing is likely to produce situation in which bit distance between addresses is a good approximation of some "goodput" metric! This is very much the same effect as that of well-placed aggregation which produces routes close to optimal with a lot less information. Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 20:30:38 -0400 From: "Mike O'Dell" <mo(a)uunet.uu.net> Vadim, Yes, caching is a good idea (technically). And who said "AS path length" was a wonderful global metric??? just because the "usual suspects" BGP implementation generally does route selection based on that attribute doesn't mean that's the ONLY thing one can do. Depending on how much additional information one wished to supply about ASes, their general level of connectivity, and geographic location, one can conceivably produce hybrid metrics, probably heuristic, which reflect some sense of "performance". for example, the server could do round-trip measurements to "sufficiently interesting" ASes so that it could base its behavior on observations. the goal wouldn't be to do fine-grained decision-making, but if the "Bruce Springsteen Ticket Server" caused some reasonably long-lived congestion, it might be worthwhile redirecting some responses. The assumption is that this special DNS server might be concentrated on fielding responses for a special set of servers, like special Web servers (could be caches), and not general connectivity. So while few things are perfectly-universal solutions, the prospect of implementing heuristics that we all use today in getting a sense of how things are going, and what to try when the first guess is hosed, seems like a worthwhile attempt. some will work better than others. that is neither news, nor a reason to not try it. -mo

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Re: topological closeness....
by avg＠postman.ncube.com 14 May '96

14 May '96

"Public cacheing" has little merit, as efficiency of cacheing decreases when covered population grows beyond some threshold (i.e when diversity of requests overwhelms the cacheing capacity -- process better known as "thrashing"). On the other side, small populations do not produce aggregatable demand patterns. I.e. it looks like that ISP-provided cache servers would be optimal. Conviniently, that allows to sidestep the problem of finding cache servers. When you never talk to other provider's cacheing servers you don't need to locate them. There are two ways to do distribute load: "supply side" caches (like secondary DNS servers) and "demand side" caches (like cacheing proxy servers). The supply-side cacheing has a fundamental problem is that you cannot tell which supply-side server is best. So much is clear from the DNS saga. --vadim

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